Butch5
Member
Chessman,
Have you been following the context of my posts to Agua? I was referring to those who fell in the wilderness because they rebelled against Moses. I was saying that Moses wasn't one of them.
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Losing Salvation after getting saved?
- Thread starter jonahmano
- Start date
Chessman,
Have you been following the context of my posts to Agua? I was referring to those who fell in the wilderness because they rebelled against Moses. I was saying that Moses wasn't one of them.
Butch5
Member
Yes, but where is it located?
Butch5
Member
They rebelled against Moses
Paul said that those who fell in the wilderness won't enter.
It's not my claim, it was Augsutine's. if a person persevered to the end then they were of the elect, if they didn't they were not of the elect. With this theology one can't know if he is saved now. This same thing rings true of OASA.
OSAS says if a believer somewhere down the road falls into sin and turns from the Lord he was never saved. However, the time before falling into sin the believer thought he was saved but according to the OSAS doctrine this must have just been an illusion because he couldn't have been saved. If that is the case how does anyone know they are saved now? After all anyyone could fall into sin and according to OSAS if that happens next week one is not saved today. That's like saying a guy is a criminal today because he commits a crime in the future. When in reality he is not a criminal until after he commits the crime.
Butch5
Member
Where is that passage located?
chessman
Member
In the previous chapter:
Chapter XL.-One and the Same God the Father Inflicts Punishment on the Reprobate, and Bestows Rewards on the Elect.
The chapter you quoted continues his overall flow against these particular heretics:
Chapter XLI.-Those Persons Who Do Nor Believe in God, But Who are Disobedient, are Angels and Sons of the Devil, Not Indeed by Nature, But by Imitation.
I think this is Irenaeus' answer to your question below as well, right?Did you read his whole book?
Butch5
Member
I have all 5 books on audio and have listened to them several times. It doesn't answer the question. If the disobedient are the sons of the devil then they are not the sons of God, thus they are not disinherited.
chessman
Member
Yes. That's why I thought it useful to point out:
Exodus 4:14 And Yahweh was angry with Moses
Along side Hebrew's quotation:Hebrews 3:10.Therefore I was angry with this generation,
Rebelled against Moses??? I thought they rebelled against God's Word (Jesus) and God's commandments, not Moses'.
I noticed you started your Hebrews quote at verse 5.
Hebrews 3:3 For this one is considered worthy of greater glory than Moses, inasmuch as the one who builds it has greater honor than the house.
Hmm, Moses is in Jesus' house. Yet never even made it into the land (His rest). I wonder how Paul knows Moses is part of Jesus' house?
A
agua.
Guest
Ok. Also notice Moses was disobedient and included in the "punishment" of not entering the promised land aka entering Yahweh's rest. This didn't hinder his salvation.
Num 20:11-12 KJV And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. (12) And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Moses also fell in the wilderness as above.
I think you're looking at it with a very negative lens. Working out salvation certainly gives me a striving attitude towards it but doesn't give me any pessimism of whether I'll receive it. I don't think Augustine was pessimistic about salvation either but simply pointed out that we don't receive it until the resurrection and that's also what you believe isn't it ?
Do you think the people who cry Lord Lord in Matthew 7 thought they were saved ? It isn't a dilemma at all because the elect will be saved.
Mat 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
chessman
Member
It answers it quite well for me after rereading the last several chapters of his Book IV and the whole chapter from which you quoted that bears this title. Especially the next sentence.
He makes the point that People are even called Sons of Satan from the womb (see his reference to David saying so within).
My point, which I believe follows his, is that he's not really talking about a converted (born again) Christian loosing their salvation but rather all the lost being "disobedient" and thus "disinherited" (i.e. un-saved). When you actually read all the other things he's talking about in the whole chapter and at least the one prior you find this out. When he says, 'disinherited', he means it much more broadly than as in a saved person who's been converted then turning around and loosing their inheritance for a second time. He's talking about the fall of man and even the fall of Satan and his angels by his use of 'dis-inheritance' and disbelief in this context.
I.e. Humanity being 'disinherited' at the fall. Thus our need to be "born again" in the first place.
Regardless, I don't really think he's talking about how someone becomes saved then looses their salvation, in my opinion.
Here's an example (one of many) throughout his Book IV of how he's using the phrase "dis-inherited":
Vain, too, is [the effort of] Marcion and his followers when they [seek to] exclude Abraham from the inheritance, to whom the Spirit through many men, and now by Paul, bears witness, that "he believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness." And the Lord [also bears witness to him, ] in the first place, indeed, by raising up children to him from the stones, and making his seed as the stars of heaven, saying, "They shall come from the east and from the west, from the north and from the south, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; " and then again by saying to the Jews, "When ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of heaven, but you yourselves cast out." This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham. (Chapter VIII)
Irenaeus is really using the term "disinherited" as a synonym for the "lost", "un-saved", "those outside the Kingdom of God", etc. He's NOT using it to teach once saved people are becoming un-saved. He doesn't think "dis-inherited" people were ever saved to begin with is my point. Now you can either evaluate this evidence and verify it in his book, or go on believing that it's a OSAS=no statement of Irenaeus' or not. It's up to you. But there's ample evidence that He's using this phrase in Chapter 41, the same way he does in Chapter 8.
It (the phrase you bolded) certainly does sound like he's taking a negative position on OSAS at first glance. However, I'm not convinced that's actually his point after re-reading his broader topic and the heresy that he was addressing in this book.
He's teaching against a serpent seed type of heresy whereby the Marcions were teaching multiple gods (such as Satan being a literal father, etc.)
Jethro Bodine
Member
Pretty hard to argue with.
OSAS is actually the doctrine of 'insecure' salvation. But it is non-OSAS that gets blasted as the 'not knowing', insecure doctrine of salvation. In non-OSAS as long as you are presently trusting in the blood of Christ, living in a lifestyle consistent with someone who is trusting in the blood of Christ (forgiven people forgive, for example), then you have what that trust in Christ promises. The promise means everything that God gives in this life, and then in the life to come. It's yours as long as you are trusting in the blood of Christ. Stop doing that and you forfeit the right of birth you were born into, Esau being the person who illustrates this spiritual truth for us.
Faith is what makes salvation secure. Lose that faith and you lose the faith that makes the promise secure and sure.
chessman
Member
Yes they are was his point. Irenaeus is giving his opinion on how creatures of God are rightly called Sons of Satan even though God created them first. God has created all humans through dust and Adam and Eve, etc. yet He has disinherited us because of Satan's influence (sin) on us. Thus the need for us all to be reborn via the H.S.and Christ. Even David and Moses.
What he's not doing in this chapter is giving his opinion on OSAS. I.e. What can happen to those He reclaims as His sons.
Butch5
Member
HI Agua,
Yes, but Moses was not kept out for unbelief.
I think you'll find as you study him that he believe one couldn't know if they were of the elect.
Yes, I think they did believe they were saved. Yes, and I think a lot of people who think they are the elect will be surprise.
Butch5
Member
Gregg
Member
That is having confidence in your faith, and not confidence in the work of God through Jesus Christ. Before someone is saved, if they believed their own faith was necessary to maintain salvation, then that faith was placed partly in themselves and partly in Christ. That kind of faith is misdirected - as not towards Christ alone for salvation, but only partially towards Him. Is that a definition of faith in God? At best, it is having faith in your own faith. That will not save you or keep you saved.
A Christian has been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. A Christian is in Christ, permanently, eternally, forever and then longer. The will of God has been reached regarding your atonement to Him, your salvation from sin and death through the blood of Jesus, and His Spirit indwelling you. Because Christ lives, we do live and will live with Him forever.
"Even as the living Father sent Me, and I live through the Father; also the one partaking Me, even that one will live through Me" (John 6:57).
"I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf" (Gal 2:20).
"even we being dead in sins, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved)," (Eph 2:5).
"For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3).
"Much more then, being justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;" (Rom 5:9-10).
A
agua.
Guest
There's something I've been thinking about that is very interesting concerning this comparison of Israel not entering the promised land and the rest they missed and loss of salvation. What was the rest promised to Israel and the rest Joshua, Caleb and the "aged under 20 (?)" received when they crossed over the Jordan ?
Jos 23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
I haven't discovered all the scriptures relevant to this rest but it seems the rest was from the physical enemies of Israel and not the rest of salvation in Christ. How do we know this ?
Heb 4:8-10 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Israel's unbelief causing them to die physically in the wilderness and not receive the rest from their enemies is a type of how we will fall short of Yahweh's rest ( salvation ) through unbelief. It isn't suggesting all those who died in the wilderness won't later enter the rest of salvation. Moses didn't receive the rest from his enemies that Joshua etc did but he will receive the rest of salvation on "the other day" ie. at the resurrection. This OT concept of rest was a physical Earthly idea it seems. Also it's interesting how in this lifetime we may fall short of physical rest through sin ( unbelief ) and be disciplined by Yahweh ( or chastised by satan ) but still enter the "true" rest of salvation.
1Co 11:30-32 KJV For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Co 5:4-5 KJV In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Physical punishment from Yahweh doesn't necessarily imply loss of salvation as per the example of the Israelite in the wilderness.
I think you'll find as you study him that he believe one couldn't know if they were of the elect.
Yes, I think they did believe they were saved. Yes, and I think a lot of people who think they are the elect will be surprise.[/QUOTE]
Butch5
Member
Yes
Butch5
Member
The problem is that Paul puts the rest in the future.
NKJ Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them1, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest1,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works1";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest1."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts1."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. (Heb 4:1-9 NKJ)
It seems to me that Paul is saying they didn't enter the future rest. he says there remains a promise of entering His rest. That's obviously a future rest. He says the Gospel was preached to them as well as us. He says since it remains that some must enter and those to whom it was first preached didn't enter. I can understand your thought that going into the physical land was a sign of the future promised land but with the way Paul words this I don't see how it can be the physical entrance into the land. Whatever one believes the future rest is Paul said those in the wilderness didn't enter.
chessman
Member
How about Christ, could He have stopped believing in one of the apostles, so as to lose their salvation?
A
agua.
Guest
Yeah I see what you're saying but still I think you're trying to apply a physical type of rest promised to Israel to their spiritual rest. They aren't the same. This is why Paul makes it clear that the rest Joshua etc received wasn't the eternal rest of salvation.
(NKJ Heb 4:8,9)
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
As comparison are you suggesting that believers who were/are killed by Yahweh, or turned over to satan, because of their disobedience won't be saved ?