A
agua.
Guest
No way Petra !
Luk 22:32 KJV But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
2Ti 2:13 KJV If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Losing Salvation after getting saved?
- Thread starter jonahmano
- Start date
No way Petra !
Luk 22:32 KJV But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
2Ti 2:13 KJV If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Having faith IS having confidence in the work of God through Jesus Christ. You HAVE to have faith in the blood of Christ to be justified/saved by the blood of Christ. Faith is how you access the work of God on your behalf.
And so once again, I insist you show me which NT writer says my faith is part of the works that can not justify.
The definition of having faith in God is trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. You HAVE to have that to be saved. That is EXACTLY what Paul says does justify. He did not include that in the works that can NOT justify. But if I missed that somewhere please show me.
I believe that I have to have faith to be justified/saved, as opposed to works of the law which can not do that. That is exactly what the Bible teaches. Exactly.
If you can show me in the Bible that my trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins--made possible by the gift of faith--will not save me, or keep me saved I will immediately repent of that doctrine.
.....as long as they continue in the faith that secured that for them.
"...although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:21-23 NAS)
If you don't agree with these plain words of scripture above please explain why you don't.
No question about it. I agree completely. And as I just showed you, you stay in that will through faith.
...If we continue in the faith that secured that for us in the first place.
A reconciliation that I showed you Paul says is dependent on continuing in the faith that secured it.
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Butch5
Member
I don't see how it can be any other way. He says they didn't enter (because of unbelief) the rest that the believer enters.
I guess it would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.
A
agua.
Guest
Sure ! Kinda like those who died / were killed in the wilderness.
Butch5
Member
Well,, I'm going with Paul.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's how I see it.
The exile of the Israelites is an illustration of being cut off from the manifest goodness and benefit of God because of disobedience. And that actually it is those who do not return who are the ones who will not be saved. Repentance has always been to me the sign of salvation.
God told the people of God that if they are disobedient they would quickly perish from the Land. We see that in our daily living when we respond to various situations in our old ungodly ways and we forfeit the manifest joy and abundance of the Holy Spirit as a result. Those who love God and righteousness and would rather dwell in his goodness repent and are brought back to the goodness and richness of the land they were expelled from.
I believe there comes a time when a person shows, by their lack of repentance, and indifference or contempt for the goodness of God, that they would rather live outside of the goodness of God, and God then turns them over to that decision and does not allow them to come back. I also believe they don't realize that has happened at first (similar to how Samson thought he still had his strength). But since they don't love righteousness anyway they won't care until the Day of Judgment when they find themselves pounding on the doors of the kingdom begging for entrance into the kingdom.
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Butch5
Member
Ezekiel deals the dispersion:
Ezekiel 9:4
Those who have grieved over the abominations of Israel will be marked
Ezekiel 9:6
Those who have the mark will not be killed
Ezekiel 11:16
God gives a little sanctuary to those in dispersion
IMHO those in dispersion tell they are in dispersion because of Israel's sin. The Gentiles actually have the first missionaries because of the dispersion.
On the day of Pentecost some foreign Jewish persons, in Jerusalem, were descended from the grieves over Israel's sin.
If we confess our sins; not--- if we say we have no sin. Jesus is our righteousness.
eddif
Ezekiel 9:4
Those who have grieved over the abominations of Israel will be marked
Ezekiel 9:6
Those who have the mark will not be killed
Ezekiel 11:16
God gives a little sanctuary to those in dispersion
IMHO those in dispersion tell they are in dispersion because of Israel's sin. The Gentiles actually have the first missionaries because of the dispersion.
On the day of Pentecost some foreign Jewish persons, in Jerusalem, were descended from the grieves over Israel's sin.
If we confess our sins; not--- if we say we have no sin. Jesus is our righteousness.
eddif
A
agua.
Guest
:D funny stuff Butch. The ol' appeal to Authority trick plus pike.
The dual nature of man is sure a trip. A lot can not understand how God can overcome our flesh.
Romans 7:25
Paul understands his flesh is doing things his mind hates.
Paul also understands the greater salvation that Christ accomplished.
I have several marks from quoting the verses Paul used. LOL
eddif
Butch5
Member
Hi Agua,
It's not a trick. I just don't see much point in discussing this subject. As I said in an earlier post, when this subject comes up passions rise and logic goes out the window. In my opinion it becomes more about protecting doctrine than searching for truth. When we were having the discussion on CI mostly everyone was bringing ideas to the table and we were asking what about this or what about that. We were reasoning things through. Now, here in this thread that seems to be gone, instead it's become a matter or trying to prove wrong what someone else has said. I believe it's simply a matter of protecting doctrine.
You said I appealed to authority, that's correct. However, I don't believe the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy when the authority is God since we believe His word is without error.
A
agua.
Guest
We're all appealing to the Authority of Bible writers and Yahweh when quoting scriptures Butch but when we use the argument that our interpretation agrees with a Bible writer it adds the pike ( extra "trick" in diving usually at the end of the routine.). If I say to you " I'm going with Paul " I'm guessing your reaction will be similar to mine ( har har yeah rite mate ) I've provided sound reasoning on this subject and so have others in support of the Perseverance of the Saints and have shown why Paul isn't talking about loss of salvation in the passages you referenced so I'm not sure what you're getting at really. I have another question though concerning your claim that all ( every ) Israelite that died in the wilderness ( aside from Moses ? ) are headed for the LoF. ( I'm still bewildered how you can think this ). What do you say about Aaron who was supremely disobedient ( unbelieving ) when he made the gold calf ?
Exo 32:5 KJV And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
Num 20:11-12 KJV And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. (12) And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Not that I know absolutely, but to me when people from every tribe are saved, then all Israel is saved.
Revelation 7:9
Is about the whole world (not just Israel).
If in Christ Jesus there is neither bond, nor free; male, nor female; Jew, nor Greek (?).
Then is not salvation an individual thing ( if any man here my voice Revelation 3:20 ).
I thought if 12,000 individuals from each tribe were saved, then all Israel was saved (Jesus preached - IMHO - to those in the grave) to accomplish this.
I realize you can not mention what I have and read as all (meaning everyone) of Israel is saved. Comments pro and con please.
eddif
Revelation 7:9
Is about the whole world (not just Israel).
If in Christ Jesus there is neither bond, nor free; male, nor female; Jew, nor Greek (?).
Then is not salvation an individual thing ( if any man here my voice Revelation 3:20 ).
I thought if 12,000 individuals from each tribe were saved, then all Israel was saved (Jesus preached - IMHO - to those in the grave) to accomplish this.
I realize you can not mention what I have and read as all (meaning everyone) of Israel is saved. Comments pro and con please.
eddif
Butch5
Member
How are you appealing to the Bible for authority when what you say is the opposite if what the Bible says? Didn't you say some of those who fell in the wilderness will be in the kingdom? Paul said,
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb 3:16-19 KJV)
He said they could not enter because of unbelief.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
(Heb 4:2-3 KJV)
He said the Gospel we preached to us as well as them, yet the word didn't profit them because they lacked faith.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (Heb 4:6 KJV)
Paul says there remains a rest, that's in the future. Then he says those to whom it was first preached did not enter in. He's saying that that group those he calls "those who fell in the wilderness" did not enter into that future rest.
He said they didn't enter, you're telling some enter. How is that an appeal to Biblical authority?
[quote I've provided sound reasoning on this subject and so have others in support of the Perseverance of the Saints[/quote]
Could you please point out to me where this has been done. I have this discussion with many people and I don't think I've seen anyone present a logical argument supporting this topic. What I typically find that the argument is supported with a barrage of proof texts. I would be intnerested to see someone layout an argument from Scripture on this subject
How have you shown that the passages I posted aren't speaking of salvation? If memory serves me I've only posted one passage, the one from 1 Timothy. That's pretty clear passage of Scripture. The young widow grew cold towards Christ and cast off their vow to serve. Paul says they cast off their first faith, received damnation, and some had already turned aside after Satan. It amazes me that people will say, but their still saved. Really, one can follow Satan and still be saved? This is what I meant then I said logic goes out the window when this subject comes up.
I don't say anything about Aaron, Paul said there was group, he labeled them," those who fell in the wilderness" that did not make it into the future rest. Whether or not Aaron was in the group, I don't know. However, I'm not gonna take Aaron or Moses and say they were disobedient but will enter that rest in an attempt to prove Paul wrong. Paul knows who he meant when said that, the point is that the group didn't make it. He gives that group as an example to those to whom he;s writing warning them not to end up the same way.
You see, this is what usually happens in these OSAS debates. Here we are discussing who is in the group that Paul was speaking of rather than addressing the real issues with OSAS. I've brought up several points that the OSAS crowd has not addressed. For one, the orthodox church did not accept this doctrine until the "Protestant" Reformation.The actually argued against it can called it heresy. If OSAS or Perseverance of the Saints is Biblical truth, then that means that those taught by Jesus and the apostles were wrong and the Gnostics who John called antichrist had the true teaching of God on this. Did Jesus and the apostles establish the faith, or only part of it?
A
agua.
Guest
Butch you still are not seeing the physical rest being used as type of spiritual rest. ie. Notice what " the rest" that the disobedient Israelite, which included Moses and Aaron, was protection from their enemies.
Deu 12:9-10 KJV For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you. (10) But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
It seems you're suggesting this type of rest ( physical) means salvation to those Israelite who crossed the Jordan and the LoF for those who didn't. Moses and Aaron didn't enter this rest and yet you insist this is a direct correlation to salvation. Notice also it was unbelief ( sin ) that Moses and Aaron were punished for.
Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Tell me what this Gospel that was preached to the Israelite in the wilderness ? Yes Paul tells us there is a rest which isn't the one that Joshua et al entered when they crossed the Jordan.
Jos 23:1 KJV And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
Heb 4:8-9 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
We can see the rest Joshua and the Israelite entered wasn't salvation. I'm telling you what the Bible says. :biggrin
1. The disobedient Israelite ( which included Moses and Aaron) didn't cross the Jordan and receive the promised rest from their enemies.
2. Their is another rest that Jesus provides and equates to salvation which is different than the physical rest the Israelite previously received.
Go back and read the thread Butch. It amuses me a bit that you suggest anyone who disagrees with your summary as proof texting when your own position seems the same. I think you're trapped in the very thing you accuse the believers of Perseverance of the saints ie. protecting a doctrine over investigative reasoning.
My discussion with you has concentrated on the passages in Hebrews and corresponding OT passages about the Israelite in the wilderness and the comparison to salvation. Anytime you sin you're following satan mate I'm a little confused again by your logic. Here tell me again why we turn believers over to satan when they're caught in sin ?
I know you didn't say anything about Aaron but I simply pointed out that he, and Moses, also died in the wilderness because of their unbelief and disobedience. This alone should wake you up. Paul is using a physical example to give a Spiritual one and it in no way implies those who died in the wilderness are headed for the LoF.
Here again I see you appealing to Authority when convenient. It's a bit disappointing esp. concerning Augustine considering how you appeal to him while you agree with a particular doctrine. It is most likely that Augustine was correcting an incorrect doctrine that was infiltrating the Body. It's a very obvious and important point in this discussion that both Moses and Aaron didn't cross the Jordan and didn't enter the rest that you suggest implies future salvation but you dodge this glaring contradiction.
Btw Jesus and the Apostles were PoS teachers I'm not sure how you think differently.
Joh 6:39 KJV And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
I'm interested Butch considering you seem very staunch about this doctrine of man based salvation why it's important to you ?
agua
You quoted Hebrews 4:8-9
Then you may have quoted Hebrews 4:10-11 elsewhere ( we need to enter into his rest).
IMHO When Jesus said it is finished; that is the reality of where the sabath came from. After work is completed then comes the rest. The weekly sabaths are a shadow of the completed work Jesus did.
Only a born again person can see the kingdom. I ought to know. I had eyes, but I was as blind as could be about the work Jesus did. I lived in John's Baptism for About 12 years, and then after being baptized in the Son's baptism I had to grow in understanding.
I am using the three aspects of the one baptism into God:
1 John's repentance baptism. ( sin against the Father)
2 Jesus's Son salvation baptism. (eternal life - entering into the rest)
3 Holy Spirit baptism (power to become a witness about Him not me)
When years pass between the relationships with Father, Son, Holy Spirit; the differences really stand out. May none of you take as long as I did.
The ox bishop comparison is the only ordinance / shadow comparison that shows types and shadows in an understandable way, but usually I get blank looks and criticism when I go there.
Interesting thread
Backwoods Mississippi redneck (they have to pump sunshine into my neck of the woods - - good thing God can shed light where he wishes).
eddif
You quoted Hebrews 4:8-9
Then you may have quoted Hebrews 4:10-11 elsewhere ( we need to enter into his rest).
IMHO When Jesus said it is finished; that is the reality of where the sabath came from. After work is completed then comes the rest. The weekly sabaths are a shadow of the completed work Jesus did.
Only a born again person can see the kingdom. I ought to know. I had eyes, but I was as blind as could be about the work Jesus did. I lived in John's Baptism for About 12 years, and then after being baptized in the Son's baptism I had to grow in understanding.
I am using the three aspects of the one baptism into God:
1 John's repentance baptism. ( sin against the Father)
2 Jesus's Son salvation baptism. (eternal life - entering into the rest)
3 Holy Spirit baptism (power to become a witness about Him not me)
When years pass between the relationships with Father, Son, Holy Spirit; the differences really stand out. May none of you take as long as I did.
The ox bishop comparison is the only ordinance / shadow comparison that shows types and shadows in an understandable way, but usually I get blank looks and criticism when I go there.
Interesting thread
Backwoods Mississippi redneck (they have to pump sunshine into my neck of the woods - - good thing God can shed light where he wishes).
eddif
Butch5
Member
Spiritual rest? Maybe this explains some of the misunderstanding. Yes, Paul is speaking of the Jews physically inheriting the Promised land, however, do you know that salvation is the believer physically inheriting the Promised land? You see because of this idea of going to Heaven many Christians miss the whole point that Paul is making.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude}
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Gen 17:5-8 KJV)
God told Abraham that He would give him and his seed the land as an "everlasting" possession. This promise was given to Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob, yet none of them received it.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: (Heb 11:8-9 KJV)
They didn't receive that promise.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:12-13 KJV)
The Jews thought they were the seed and were entitled to inherit the land. However, Paul comes along tells them they're wrong.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)
Paul says that the Seed that God was talking about was not the Jews, it was Christ. The Promised land is the inheritance of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Paul says that the Gentiles can be included in this promise through faith in Christ.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (Gal 3:7-9 KJV)
He then says "the blessing of Abraham" comes on the Gentiles through Christ.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:14 KJV)
What is "the blessing of Abraham"? It is the land that was promised to him. This phrase only appears one other place in Scripture.
And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; {a multitude...: Heb. an assembly of people}
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)
As Paul said this blessing come to the Gentiles through faith in Christ. Paul concludes the chapter by saying.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29 KJV)
Believers are heirs of the promise made to Abraham, that is the Promised Land.
Continued...
Butch5
Member
Here again Paul addresses it in Romans,
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: (Rom 4:13-14 KJV)
The promise of the Land comes through faith. And again,
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom 8:16-17 KJV)
what is Christ's inheritance?
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psa 2:6-8 KJV)
The word "earth" here is literally, the land.
Salvation is being resurrected receiving the inheritance which is the land Promised to Abraham. The Israelites going into the Promised Land was was a conditional inheritance, if the kept the Law they could stay in the Land, if they didn't they would be kicked and we see they were. So Paul using the Israelites as an example of entering or not entering the Promised land and equating it with the future entrance into the Promised land is most certainly referring to salvation. When Paul speaks of "we who believe do enter that rest" he is speaking of the believer entering the Promised land which is salvation.
Now, you can say this one or that one did or didn't enter in, however, Paul makes it abundantly clear that there was a group in wilderness the did not enter that future rest.
KJV Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath}
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:1-11 KJV)
There is the future rest and he said some from the wilderness did not enter into it.
So, I'm not missing the point about the Jews physical entrance into the land. I think what many miss is that the picture of the Jews entrance into the promised land, is a picture of salvation. Just as the Jews were promised rest upon entering the land, the believer is promised rest upon entering the land.
Also, since you've brought up Moses and Aaron, Paul specifies that it was some, not all who rebelled.
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:15-17 KJV)
It's what I explained above. For a more detailed explanation with a lot more Scriptural references you can look my article, "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)"
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: (Rom 4:13-14 KJV)
The promise of the Land comes through faith. And again,
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom 8:16-17 KJV)
what is Christ's inheritance?
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psa 2:6-8 KJV)
The word "earth" here is literally, the land.
Salvation is being resurrected receiving the inheritance which is the land Promised to Abraham. The Israelites going into the Promised Land was was a conditional inheritance, if the kept the Law they could stay in the Land, if they didn't they would be kicked and we see they were. So Paul using the Israelites as an example of entering or not entering the Promised land and equating it with the future entrance into the Promised land is most certainly referring to salvation. When Paul speaks of "we who believe do enter that rest" he is speaking of the believer entering the Promised land which is salvation.
Now, you can say this one or that one did or didn't enter in, however, Paul makes it abundantly clear that there was a group in wilderness the did not enter that future rest.
KJV Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath}
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:1-11 KJV)
There is the future rest and he said some from the wilderness did not enter into it.
So, I'm not missing the point about the Jews physical entrance into the land. I think what many miss is that the picture of the Jews entrance into the promised land, is a picture of salvation. Just as the Jews were promised rest upon entering the land, the believer is promised rest upon entering the land.
Also, since you've brought up Moses and Aaron, Paul specifies that it was some, not all who rebelled.
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:15-17 KJV)
It's what I explained above. For a more detailed explanation with a lot more Scriptural references you can look my article, "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)"
Butch5
Member
No, it wasn't, but the future rest is and it was this future rest that Paul said those who fell in the wilderness did not enter.
It's not a different rest at all. It's the very same rest that they were promised. The difference is they didn't enter by faith.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Heb 4:2-3 KJV)
It's the same Gospel and the same promise.
But you didn't point me to any example. This is my point, to me this is a deflection. All I asked for was for you point out an example of a logical argument for OSAS. A simple post number xx would have been just fine.
I'm gonna have to disagree with that statement. A sin does not make one a follower of Satan. If we use that reasoning we could say that if one does a good deed he is Christian. There is also a big difference between Paul turning one over to Satan, and one choosing to follow Satan.
Paul described a group who fell in the wilderness and said they did not enter the future rest. Do you see what I'm referring to? It seems to me that your bringing up Moses and Aaron is an attempt to prove Paul wrong. This is what I was referring to when I said with this subject passions arise and logic goes out the window. You said, we all appeal to Biblical authority, yet in this case it seems to me that you are rejecting Biblical authority. No matter what one says about Moses or Aaron, Paul stated plainly that there was a group in the wilderness that did not enter the future rest.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (Heb 4:2-6 KJV)
This is how it usually goes in a discussion on this subject. It doesn't appear to me that you're trying to reconcile Paul's words, but rather prove him wrong. Maybe I'm missing something but that's how it appears to me. If that is the case that is not logical reasoning if we claim that God's word is without error.
It's not a appeal to authority, I'm simply stating what we see in history. Yet, I notice you didn't address the issue, instead you turned to Augustine and my quoting him. Actually, if you find where I quoted Augustine you will find that it was to disagree with him. I don't quote Augustine to support my arguments simply because I do disagree with him. On the very rare occasion I might point Augustine to support a statement, I usually give the caveat, 'while I disagree with much of what Augustine says'.
The question still remains, if OSAS or Perseverance of the Saints is Biblical, why didn't those taught by Jesus and the apostles teach it? Instead, the fought against it and called it heresy.
I'd suggest it's that he was trying to fit Scripture with what he already believed.
It's not a contradiction, have you considered that you may be misunderstanding Paul's group?[/quote][/quote]
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