Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Butch5]

Agua

Btw Jesus and the Apostles were PoS teachers I'm not sure how you think differently.

Joh 6:39 KJV And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This is what I was talking about when I said the case is made from proof texts. There's no argument here, no context, nothing but a single sentence. This is how OSAS is defended, however, if we look at this sentence in context it becomes clear that it's not teaching PoS. First of all that passage says all that the Father gives me, so we know that this passage refers to a specific group of people, those given to Christ by the Father. The question is, who are they? Well, Jesus gives us more information on who these were.

KJV John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (Joh 16:1-26 KJV)

So, we can see from this passage that those given to Christ had been given by the this time. He doesn't say any will be given in the future and in His prayer he doesn't pray for those who will be given to him in the future but rather those who will believe the apostles words. So we can see that those given to Christ were a specific group of men for a specific purpose.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I would submit that this speaking of the apostles.

Another thing to note about the passage is that Jesus said, He should raise up not, He would raise up. In John 6:39 the word "lose" is in the subjunctive mood not the indicative, the Subjunctive mood indicates contingency. That Jesus in John 17 states that Judas was lost shows that PoS is not what Jesus was saying in John 6:39.

I'm interested Butch considering you seem very staunch about this doctrine of man based salvation why it's important to you ?

Ah poisoning the well?

What "man based salvation" are you referring to?[/quote][/quote]

 

[Genesis Owl]

If a person can give up salvation at any point then has he got saved in the first place?

One person was arguing with me about this but is this logic possible?

I believe Hebrews 6 and verses 4 through 6, has given us assurance that those who are in Christ are never released from his saving grace.
Therefore, those who lose their salvation may be presumed to have never had it in the first place. Jesus does not lie.

 

[agua.]

Spiritual rest? Maybe this explains some of the misunderstanding. Yes, Paul is speaking of the Jews physically inheriting the Promised land, however, do you know that salvation is the believer physically inheriting the Promised land? You see because of this idea of going to Heaven many Christians miss the whole point that Paul is making.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude}
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Gen 17:5-8 KJV)

God told Abraham that He would give him and his seed the land as an "everlasting" possession. This promise was given to Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob, yet none of them received it.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: (Heb 11:8-9 KJV)

They didn't receive that promise.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb 11:12-13 KJV)

The Jews thought they were the seed and were entitled to inherit the land. However, Paul comes along tells them they're wrong.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Paul says that the Seed that God was talking about was not the Jews, it was Christ. The Promised land is the inheritance of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. Paul says that the Gentiles can be included in this promise through faith in Christ.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (Gal 3:7-9 KJV)

He then says "the blessing of Abraham" comes on the Gentiles through Christ.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:14 KJV)

What is "the blessing of Abraham"? It is the land that was promised to him. This phrase only appears one other place in Scripture.

And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; {a multitude...: Heb. an assembly of people}
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)

As Paul said this blessing come to the Gentiles through faith in Christ. Paul concludes the chapter by saying.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29 KJV)

Believers are heirs of the promise made to Abraham, that is the Promised Land.

Continued...

Yes this is all correct Butch. The physical entrance to the Promised Land by the Israelite was a type of the final entrance after the resurrection. It wasn't the actual though. Do you consider that all the Israelite who painted blood on their door posts before the exodus guarteed their spiritual salvation by doing this? Or maybe you think every Israelite who took the Passover Seder guaranteed their salvation ? These are all types of the future salvation not the reality.

 

[agua.]

Here again Paul addresses it in Romans,

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: (Rom 4:13-14 KJV)

The promise of the Land comes through faith. And again,

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom 8:16-17 KJV)

what is Christ's inheritance?

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psa 2:6-8 KJV)

The word "earth" here is literally, the land.

Salvation is being resurrected receiving the inheritance which is the land Promised to Abraham. The Israelites going into the Promised Land was was a conditional inheritance, if the kept the Law they could stay in the Land, if they didn't they would be kicked and we see they were. So Paul using the Israelites as an example of entering or not entering the Promised land and equating it with the future entrance into the Promised land is most certainly referring to salvation. When Paul speaks of "we who believe do enter that rest" he is speaking of the believer entering the Promised land which is salvation.

Now, you can say this one or that one did or didn't enter in, however, Paul makes it abundantly clear that there was a group in wilderness the did not enter that future rest.

KJV Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath}
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:1-11 KJV)

There is the future rest and he said some from the wilderness did not enter into it.

So, I'm not missing the point about the Jews physical entrance into the land. I think what many miss is that the picture of the Jews entrance into the promised land, is a picture of salvation. Just as the Jews were promised rest upon entering the land, the believer is promised rest upon entering the land.

Also, since you've brought up Moses and Aaron, Paul specifies that it was some, not all who rebelled.

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:15-17 KJV)




It's what I explained above. For a more detailed explanation with a lot more Scriptural references you can look my article, "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)"

Yeah this is similar to the above and fails to recognize that the physical type of rest isn't the actual rest we receive after the resurrection. Again you haven't addressed if crossing the Jordan and receiving the rest in the Promised Land is the reality of the future rest ( salvation ) then how do you include Moses and Aaron ?

Heb 3:18-19 KJV And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

The only people who are said not to show unbelief in the wilderness are Joshua, Caleb, ( and the fighting men under 20(?)). Can you show me where ( in scripture ) and why you include Moses and Aaron in the group who Yahweh wasn't "grieved" and the group who didn't sin ?

 

[chessman]

These are all types of the future salvation not the reality.

Can you imagine how protected they felt after witnessing the entire Egyptian army destroyed by God in the Red Sea on that day (what in about 5-10 minutes)? I bet they were ready to march right on into that promised land in the next week or two (it's only about 150 miles). It seems God had different plans for them that took some 40 years to finally work out and make it there? Some "falling away" went on during that 40 years as I recall.

p.s. and their still fighting neighbors there today!

 

[agua.]

No, it wasn't, but the future rest is and it was this future rest that Paul said those who fell in the wilderness did not enter.


It's not a different rest at all. It's the very same rest that they were promised. The difference is they didn't enter by faith.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Heb 4:2-3 KJV)

It's the same Gospel and the same promise.

No Paul didn't say that those who fell in the Wilderness won't enter the future rest can you point to the scripture which says the Israelite who didn't enter the physical rest won't enter the rest of salvation ? You're assuming this Butch to suit this incorrect doctrine.

But you didn't point me to any example. This is my point, to me this is a deflection. All I asked for was for you point out an example of a logical argument for OSAS. A simple post number xx would have been just fine.

I presented logical argument of why your argument that the Israelite who died in the wilderness equates to their loss of salvation is incorrect in several posts. Umm we started back in post # 549 and in #568 #575 #580 #584 #593 #596 and the current posts :biggrin. You seem to think long explanations hold more weight than concise ones for some reason.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that statement. A sin does not make one a follower of Satan. If we use that reasoning we could say that if one does a good deed he is Christian. There is also a big difference between Paul turning one over to Satan, and one choosing to follow Satan.

Oky doky I don't mind if you disagree with how many sins it takes to make a person a follower of satan but the question remains why did Paul tell us to turn believers over to satan ?

Paul described a group who fell in the wilderness and said they did not enter the future rest. Do you see what I'm referring to? It seems to me that your bringing up Moses and Aaron is an attempt to prove Paul wrong. This is what I was referring to when I said with this subject passions arise and logic goes out the window. You said, we all appeal to Biblical authority, yet in this case it seems to me that you are rejecting Biblical authority. No matter what one says about Moses or Aaron, Paul stated plainly that there was a group in the wilderness that did not enter the future rest.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (Heb 4:2-6 KJV)

show me which part of this scripture says that the Israelite who died in the wilderness won't enter the rest of salvation ? I've seen you say but it isn't what Paul wrote.

This is how it usually goes in a discussion on this subject. It doesn't appear to me that you're trying to reconcile Paul's words, but rather prove him wrong. Maybe I'm missing something but that's how it appears to me. If that is the case that is not logical reasoning if we claim that God's word is without error.

Yes you're missing that the OT gives us many physical types of spiritual realities. I gave the example of the Passover Seder etc above and you seem to miss that these types aren't the actual. Don't be silly Butch do you seriously think I'm trying to claim Paul's words are wrong ? :biggrin I agree fully with Paul but disagree with your interpretation of him concerning this issue. Nice trick again you need to change your routine to impress the judges mate :biggrin

It's not a appeal to authority, I'm simply stating what we see in history. Yet, I notice you didn't address the issue, instead you turned to Augustine and my quoting him. Actually, if you find where I quoted Augustine you will find that it was to disagree with him. I don't quote Augustine to support my arguments simply because I do disagree with him. On the very rare occasion I might point Augustine to support a statement, I usually give the caveat, 'while I disagree with much of what Augustine says'.

I don't need to address what you perceive as a vital issue of appeal to authority when the subject matter it pretty clear without it.. Are you saying you don't agree with Augustine on any issue and haven't appealed to any of his doctrinal explanations ? I'm not saying you quoted Augustine for support on this matter.

The question still remains, if OSAS or Perseverance of the Saints is Biblical, why didn't those taught by Jesus and the apostles teach it? Instead, the fought against it and called it heresy.

Incorrect. Jesus and Paul taught PoS. For my information can you list the people directly taught by Jesus and the Apostles who fought against PoS ? Ta.

I'd suggest it's that he was trying to fit Scripture with what he already believed.

Pot kettle is all I can suggest here :biggrin

It's not a contradiction, have you considered that you may be misunderstanding Paul's group?

I've asked above for you to clarify why you include Moses and Aaron in the group with Joshua, Caleb et al maybe you can clear that up for me.

 

[agua.]

This is what I was talking about when I said the case is made from proof texts. There's no argument here, no context, nothing but a single sentence. This is how OSAS is defended, however, if we look at this sentence in context it becomes clear that it's not teaching PoS. First of all that passage says all that the Father gives me, so we know that this passage refers to a specific group of people, those given to Christ by the Father. The question is, who are they? Well, Jesus gives us more information on who these were.

KJV John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (Joh 16:1-26 KJV)

So, we can see from this passage that those given to Christ had been given by the this time. He doesn't say any will be given in the future and in His prayer he doesn't pray for those who will be given to him in the future but rather those who will believe the apostles words. So we can see that those given to Christ were a specific group of men for a specific purpose.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I would submit that this speaking of the apostles.

Interesting I haven't heard this explanation before I'll need to chew on this a bit. I see elsewhere though the idea that Jesus saves all those who come to Him in other passages.

Heb 7:25 KJV Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Ops proof texting again :D

Another thing to note about the passage is that Jesus said, He should raise up not, He would raise up. In John 6:39 the word "lose" is in the subjunctive mood not the indicative, the Subjunctive mood indicates contingency. That Jesus in John 17 states that Judas was lost shows that PoS is not what Jesus was saying in John 6:39.

I'm not following you here. Judas was given as an Apostle but not a believer. Oh your saying that since Judas was lost that the passage isn't about salvation ?

Ah poisoning the well?

What "man based salvation" are you referring to?

[/quote][/QUOTE]

Well it seems logical fallacies are ok with you should we stop ? :D

Man based salvation is the type that relies upon man deciding who is saved.

 

[agua.]

Can you imagine how protected they felt after witnessing the entire Egyptian army destroyed by God in the Red Sea on that day (what in about 5-10 minutes)? I bet they were ready to march right on into that promised land in the next week or two (it's only about 150 miles). It seems God had different plans for them that took some 40 years to finally work out and make it there? Some "falling away" went on during that 40 years as I recall.

p.s. and their still fighting neighbors there today!

Yeah chessman the story continues.

 

[Butch5]

Interesting I haven't heard this explanation before I'll need to chew on this a bit. I see elsewhere though the idea that Jesus saves all those who come to Him in other passages.

Heb 7:25 KJV Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Ops proof texting again :biggrin

How does one come to Jesus now, He's not here? The passage above says come to God through Christ, not come to Christ.

I'm not following you here. Judas was given as an Apostle but not a believer. Oh your saying that since Judas was lost that the passage isn't about salvation ?

John 6:39 says nothing about being saved, it says,

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Joh 6:39 KJV)

One can argue whether or not Judas was save, however, there is no doubt that Judas was given to Christ and he was lost, thus John 5:39 doesn't prove OSAS or PoS.

Well it seems logical fallacies are ok with you should we stop ? :biggrin

I don't know what your'e getting at here.

Man based salvation is the type that relies upon man deciding who is saved.

Man, decides If he himself will be saved, If one chooses to follow they will be saved/

 

[Butch5]

No Paul didn't say that those who fell in the Wilderness won't enter the future rest can you point to the scripture which says the Israelite who didn't enter the physical rest won't enter the rest of salvation ? You're assuming this Butch to suit this incorrect doctrine.

Will I post it? I've already posted it numerous times.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:2-9 KJV)

Paul said there remains a rest for the people of God, it still remained in his day. He is not talking about Joshua taking the Jews into the promised land when he says there remains a rest. He said that rest is the seventh, he also calls is the Sabbath, that is not Joshua taking the Jews in to the promised land that he is speaking of. However, he did say about those who were in the wilderness that they did not enter the rest, he's talking about the rest that is the seventh day, that Sabbath rest.

I presented logical argument of why your argument that the Israelite who died in the wilderness equates to their loss of salvation is incorrect in several posts. Umm we started back in post # 549 and in #568 #575 #580 #584 #593 #596 and the current posts :biggrin. You seem to think long explanations hold more weight than concise ones for some reason.

No, what I was looking for was a logical argument supporting OSAS.

Oky doky I don't mind if you disagree with how many sins it takes to make a person a follower of satan but the question remains why did Paul tell us to turn believers over to satan ?

He didn't, he told the Corinthians to.

show me which part of this scripture says that the Israelite who died in the wilderness won't enter the rest of salvation ? I've seen you say but it isn't what Paul wrote.

I've shown it several times and it is above in this post.

Yes you're missing that the OT gives us many physical types of spiritual realities. I gave the example of the Passover Seder etc above and you seem to miss that these types aren't the actual. Don't be silly Butch do you seriously think I'm trying to claim Paul's words are wrong ? :biggrin I agree fully with Paul but disagree with your interpretation of him concerning this issue. Nice trick again you need to change your routine to impress the judges mate :biggrin

I don't think you do, or you simply are misunderstanding what he said. I know the interpretation statement would be next. The problem is I didn't give one, what part of this is my interpretation?

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:1-9 KJV)

I don't need to address what you perceive as a vital issue of appeal to authority when the subject matter it pretty clear without it..

Ok, so when a real challenge to OSAS is presented you don't want to address, is that it?

Are you saying you don't agree with Augustine on any issue and haven't appealed to any of his doctrinal explanations ? I'm not saying you quoted Augustine for support on this matter.

I don't agree with him on many issues. I don't know every single doctrinal position he held but many he does hold I disagree with.

Incorrect. Jesus and Paul taught PoS. For my information can you list the people directly taught by Jesus and the Apostles who fought against PoS ? Ta.

No, they didn't. If they did I'm sure someone would have pointed out this teaching in Scripture.

Sorry, I don't have that list.

Pot kettle is all I can suggest here :biggrin

A study of church history will reveal otherwise.

I've asked above for you to clarify why you include Moses and Aaron in the group with Joshua, Caleb et al maybe you can clear that up for me.

I didn't include anyone in the group, you did that. I simply said those who fell in the wilderness, which is what Paul said,

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:17 KJV)

He didn't list the names of who these were. As I pointed out earlier he said,

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:16-17 KJV)

He said there was a group who fell in the wilderness, this is the group I have been speaking of. You brought up Moses and Aaron,

 

[Butch5]

Yeah this is similar to the above and fails to recognize that the physical type of rest isn't the actual rest we receive after the resurrection. Again you haven't addressed if crossing the Jordan and receiving the rest in the Promised Land is the reality of the future rest ( salvation ) then how do you include Moses and Aaron ?

Heb 3:18-19 KJV And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

The only people who are said not to show unbelief in the wilderness are Joshua, Caleb, ( and the fighting men under 20(?)). Can you show me where ( in scripture ) and why you include Moses and Aaron in the group who Yahweh wasn't "grieved" and the group who didn't sin ?

As I said, I didn't include anyone in the group. I simply said what Paul said, those who fell in the wilderness. You're the one who is putting names in the group.

 

[Butch5]

Yes this is all correct Butch. The physical entrance to the Promised Land by the Israelite was a type of the final entrance after the resurrection. It wasn't the actual though. Do you consider that all the Israelite who painted blood on their door posts before the exodus guarteed their spiritual salvation by doing this? Or maybe you think every Israelite who took the Passover Seder guaranteed their salvation ? These are all types of the future salvation not the reality.

Again, the rest that Paul speaks of remained in his day. He said, those who fell in the wilderness didn't enter the rest that remained in Paul day. The rest that remained in Paul's was nit Joshua taking the Jews into the land. The rest that remained in Paul's day is the seventh day, the Sabbath rest into which Jesus will take the believers, it's this rest that Paul said those who fell in the wilderness did not enter.

 

[MarkT]

If a person can give up salvation at any point then has he got saved in the first place?
One person was arguing with me about this but is this logic possible?

I would put it another way. Did the Lord ever know him?

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

If the Father and the Son come to him and they make their home in him, it is unlikely the Son will say he never knew the man.

So the Holy Spirit in a man is a great assurance. The words of the Lord in a man are a great assurance. This man is following the Lord and the prophet - 'Let your heart hold fast my words; keep my commandments, and live.' Pr. 4:4

So to put it another way, those who belong to Him know to keep His commandments and the Spirit chastises them if they don't.

And Jesus said he would not lose any of his sheep. Can this man lose his salvation? The word of God is No. But even the impossible is possible, for unless the days be shortened, no human being will be saved. But for those he chose, the days will be shortened.

Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

A person can lose their salvation by denying the Master who bought them, by falling into unbelief. There are a lot of things that can ruin a man. The man doesn't understand the words and Satan snatches them away, for instance. But the sheep know this. Did the Lord ever know him?

Yes there are warnings. But the sheep know the warnings. A man may be overcome by temptation and sin, but the Lord said God would forgive us our sins if we forgive those who trespass against us.

If God is for us who can be against us? But false teachers and false prophets will arise and lead many astray. Ro. 8:31

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

The sheep know this.

So to sum it up, many will fall into unbelief, many will be lead astray, many will deny the Master, many will follow false teachers and because of them the truth will be reviled. 2 Peter 2:1-3

Though they escape the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, though they know the way, they turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

But did the Lord ever know them?

 

[agua.]

How does one come to Jesus now, He's not here? The passage above says come to God through Christ, not come to Christ.

I don't get ya here Butch.

John 6:39 says nothing about being saved, it says,

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Joh 6:39 KJV)

One can argue whether or not Judas was save, however, there is no doubt that Judas was given to Christ and he was lost, thus John 5:39 doesn't prove OSAS or PoS.

Yeah ok after thinking on this a bit today while driving in the wilderness :biggrin ( and removing a dead Roo from the road full of maggots ) I agree this scripture doesn't necessarily support PoS.

I don't know what your'e getting at here.

Oky doky

Man, decides If he himself will be saved, If one chooses to follow they will be saved/

Oky I disagree. The initiation and regeneration are all from Yahweh.

Will I post it? I've already posted it numerous times.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:2-9 KJV)

Paul said there remains a rest for the people of God, it still remained in his day. He is not talking about Joshua taking the Jews into the promised land when he says there remains a rest. He said that rest is the seventh, he also calls is the Sabbath, that is not Joshua taking the Jews in to the promised land that he is speaking of. However, he did say about those who were in the wilderness that they did not enter the rest, he's talking about the rest that is the seventh day, that Sabbath rest.

Wrong. Paul is using the physical rest ( from their enemies ) of the Israelite to the future rest (salvation ) after the resurrection. It's no different than the many other types in the OT. The Israelite didn't gain the physical rest because of disobedience/ unbelief. This is why Paul goes on to say that the rest from their enemies wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future.

No, what I was looking for was a logical argument supporting OSAS.

Oky doky best ask someone else then :biggrin

He didn't, he told the Corinthians to.

Like pulling hens teeth :biggrin Why did Paul tell the Corinthians to trun unrepentant sinning Christians over to satan ?

I've shown it several times and it is above in this post.

No you haven't. You dodged the question and haven't yet shown how Moses and Aaron somehow received the salvational rest when they didn't enter the Promised Land.

I don't think you do, or you simply are misunderstanding what he said. I know the interpretation statement would be next. The problem is I didn't give one, what part of this is my interpretation?

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to}
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was}
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua}
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:1-9 KJV)

You haven't given an interpretation ? :biggrin Ok this must mean you agree that Paul isn't suggesting the Israelite who died in the wilderness is necessarily headed for the LoF.

Ok, so when a real challenge to OSAS is presented you don't want to address, is that it?

What's the real challenge ? I've asked below for you to present these people who were directly taught by Jesus or the Apostles but it seems you don't know who they are ?

I don't agree with him on many issues. I don't know every single doctrinal position he held but many he does hold I disagree with.

Ah oky doky sorry about that. I thought you agreed with Augustine on many doctrines. Interesting.

No, they didn't. If they did I'm sure someone would have pointed out this teaching in Scripture.

Sorry, I don't have that list.

The teaching is in scripture just ask Augustine et al :biggrin

Ok I'll have to disregard the claim that those taught directly by Jesus and the Apostles refuted PoS until you produce the people and their argument.

A study of church history will reveal otherwise.

I'm all ears/eyes if you have the sources.

I didn't include anyone in the group, you did that. I simply said those who fell in the wilderness, which is what Paul said,

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:17 KJV)

He didn't list the names of who these were. As I pointed out earlier he said,

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (Heb 3:16-17 KJV)

He said there was a group who fell in the wilderness, this is the group I have been speaking of. You brought up Moses and Aaron,

Yeah I brought up Moses and Aaron to show that they also fell in the wilderness and according to your position this means they're headed for the LoF.

 

[agua.]

As I said, I didn't include anyone in the group. I simply said what Paul said, those who fell in the wilderness. You're the one who is putting names in the group.

Nice dodge. It's a tricky thing to reconcile with your doctrine.

Again, the rest that Paul speaks of remained in his day. He said, those who fell in the wilderness didn't enter the rest that remained in Paul day. The rest that remained in Paul's was nit Joshua taking the Jews into the land. The rest that remained in Paul's day is the seventh day, the Sabbath rest into which Jesus will take the believers, it's this rest that Paul said those who fell in the wilderness did not enter.

Heb 4:8-9 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

No it's a different rest. We're told that Jesus didn't give His rest when they entered the Promised Land because it's different. ie. " another day". It's interesting a rest ( salvation ) remains for the people of God in contrast to the physical rest the Israelite previously received.

 

[MarkT]

If a person can give up salvation at any point then has he got saved in the first place?
One person was arguing with me about this but is this logic possible?

I would say no because it is the gospel that saves. It's not a question of giving up salvation. It's a question of belief. Unbelief just happens. Same as belief. You can't say you don't want to be saved if God hasn't saved you. However you can ask God to save you if you believe.

 

[Butch5]

Oky I disagree. The initiation and regeneration are all from Yahweh.

That doesn't change that fact that man chooses.

Wrong. Paul is using the physical rest ( from their enemies ) of the Israelite to the future rest (salvation ) after the resurrection. It's no different than the many other types in the OT. The Israelite didn't gain the physical rest because of disobedience/ unbelief. This is why Paul goes on to say that the rest from their enemies wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future.

It's not wrong. Tell me, this passage,

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9 KJV)

Is Paul telling his readers, that Joshua who followed Moses as the leader of the Jews is going to take them into the land of Israel? If yes, please explain, If no, please explain.

Like pulling hens teeth :biggrin Why did Paul tell the Corinthians to trun unrepentant sinning Christians over to satan ?

He didn't, he told them to do that in one stance.$

No you haven't. You dodged the question and haven't yet shown how Moses and Aaron somehow received the salvational rest when they didn't enter the Promised Land.

Can we dispense with the straw man?

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Heb 3:16 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Nice dodge. It's a tricky thing to reconcile with your doctrine.

It's not tricky at all, if you'll look at the Scriptures.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Heb 3:16 KJV)

He said, not all who came out of Egypt are in the group.

Heb 4:8-9 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

No it's a different rest. We're told that Jesus didn't give His rest when they entered the Promised Land because it's different. ie. " another day". It's interesting a rest ( salvation ) remains for the people of God in contrast to the physical rest the Israelite previously received.

It's Joshua, not Jesus. Joshua took them into land, not Jesus.

 

[agua.]

That doesn't change that fact that man chooses.

I disagree. Yahweh chooses.

It's not wrong. Tell me, this passage,


9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9 KJV)


Is Paul telling his readers, that Joshua who followed Moses as the leader of the Jews is going to take them into the land of Israel? If yes, please explain, If no, please explain.

Yes Joshua takes the younger generation of Israelite into the promised land. This was the rest from their physical enemies Yahweh promised.

He didn't, he told them to do that in one stance.$

Oh ok. You suggest this instruction from Paul was solely for the one man who was sleeping with his Fathers wife. Interesting. Why did Paul tell them to turn this particular man over to satan ?

Can we dispense with the straw man?


16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Heb 3:16 KJV)

Let's examine who this "not all" are because you re suggesting Moses ( and possibly Aaron ) weren't punished in like manner as every other Israelite that didn't cross the Jordan and enter the Promised Land.


Heb 3:17 KJV But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?


Did Moses and Aaron sin in the wilderness ? Yes they did.


Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.


Did Moses and Aaron die in the wilderness ? Yes they did.


Who were the only adult Israelite that left Egypt to wholly follow Yahweh ( believe ) and not die in the wilderness ? Joshua and Caleb.


Num 32:11-12 KJV Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: (12) Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.


So we can see that Moses and Aaron died in the wilderness along with every other adult Israelite that left Egypt because they had not wholly followed Yahweh. Why do you give preference to them and allow them salvation when your doctrine insists they're headed for the LoF ? My straw man seem to be made of stone

 

[agua.]

It's not tricky at all, if you'll look at the Scriptures.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Heb 3:16 KJV)

He said, not all who came out of Egypt are in the group.

As shown above Moses and Aaron were in the group to fall in the wilderness.

It's Joshua, not Jesus. Joshua took them into land, not Jesus.

Yeah that's right. Joshua took the Israelite into the land to receive the promised rest from their physical enemies.

Jos 23:1 KJV And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

This wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future.

Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.