Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[agua.]

You have forgotten the arguments that have been made that to say that believers have the responsibility to continue to believe in order to be saved is a self righteous work because it means you're trusting in what you do. And I asked why when we first believed that was not a self righteous work, but continuing to do that same believing is.

You'll need to ask the person/people who made those arguments. Since you often misrepresent/misunderstand what people say can you quote the posts which contain " the arguments that have been made that to say that believers have the responsibility to continue to believe in order to be saved is a self righteous work ".

Unfortunately, the scripture you quoted represents those whom Jesus never knew.

If we take the next logical step in understanding this, we can conclude that they never had the Spirit of Christ in them.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

So we must ask ourselves, by what Spirit were they "prophesying", and doing many wonderful works?


JLB

Unfortunately, the scripture you quoted represents those whom Jesus never knew.

Correct poster JLB.

The point is that.

When Jesus returns there will be many people who point to their own efforts and they seem to truly believe they were saved.

Of course they never were.

 

[JLB]

Heb 3:12-13~~12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

For we have become partners or associates of Christ IF we hold fast to the what? The/our assurance.

The very same people who try to teach that we have no assurance are in fact the ones who are being described in these very passages.

If we do not hold fast our assurance or confidence in Christ, we WILL be hardened by sin......because sin becomes our focus if we lose our assurance or confidence in Christ.

Still saved if they have been deceived into losing their confidence or assurance, Just no longer an associate or partner with Christs doctrine.

If one believes you can lose salvation, that person has lost their confidence and assurance. And are no longer partakers in Christs doctrines.

13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

An evil unbelieving heart, that is hardened, is the product of the deceitfulness of sin.

An evil unbelieving heart, that becomes hardened, is what is prone to fall away from God.


The lifestyle of faith through hearing God and being led by the Spirit, is the safe guard against falling away from God through the deceitfulness of sin.

Those who practice righteousness are righteous, do not be deceived.

To be spiritually minded is life and peace.

For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:6

I find those who use the Grace of God as a license to sin, are the very ones who get into trouble and become hard hearted through the deceitfulness of sin, and fall away from God.


I have also noticed that those who fall away, don't have or any assurance, but only a fearful expectation...

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:24-29


JLB

 

[agua.]

Lovely. Now I have to tell my friend who got saved, spoke in tongues, but who later made a conscious decision to leave the faith because of the responsibilities of the faith would not have failed and could be saved and at peace with God today if only God loved them and had not allowed them to be challenged by the demands of holy living.

Now, address how people sanctified by faith in Christ can walk away from Christ and no longer have a sacrifice for sin and have nothing left but the fearful expectation of the punishment of the damned (Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB):

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." " (Hebrews 10: NASB)

(emphasis in original)

Now I have to tell my friend who got saved, spoke in tongues, but who later made a conscious decision to leave the faith because of the responsibilities of the faith would not have failed and could be saved and at peace with God today if only God loved them and had not allowed them to be challenged by the demands of holy living.

How do you know your friend was saved or spoke in tongues ?

 

[jonahmano]

Ok no worries. Let's just assume I don't believe your claims made against Grace Preahers. You can PM me the quotes and site addresses if you want to change my mind.



If the man was Born Again he will be saved. I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Do you believe you need to pray and read the Bible to be saved ?
2. Do you believe a person can unrepentantly misrepresent people and still be saved ?

Answer for 1st question: Yeah I do believe that we need to read the bible and pray because that's the way we keep our faith. Knowing Him more and more and having fellowship with Him so that when a day comes my faith be tested then I won't be led astray. Do you know that many people in this world were led astray and believed in false doctrines and are facing the wrath of God?? I wish they would have been more matured than milk sucking babes, judging what is right. And I truly believe that bible reading and prayer will make us more mature believers and that's the prominent part in a Christian's life so that he/she could hold on to the faith which he/she believes.

Answer for 2nd question: Great question. But what does the word of God say in 2 Timothy 3:16 and that's why we are here debating. We know that Ephesians says that gossipers will not inherit the kingdom of God. It's is for the word of God to judge and not me. You have a very good logic but don't you think that asking cross questions to pacify others questions is not in the integrity of your conscience?

I asked you a plain question and I wanted a plain answer from you. so when you say that if the man was born-again and he will be saved it means that you are defining a born-again has heard the Word of God, accept the gospel, Repent of past sins, accept Lord Jesus as personal Saviour and even take baptism and then do nothing because he has many financial business commitments which are at tight schedulue and that will run to the end of his life. He has no time for personal prayer and bible-reading. He just understood that Jesus died on the cross and the statement of Romans 10:9 has got him into the heaven OSAS???? So you mean that this kind of person who had a personal relationship with Christ only for one time in his life is going to be saved, just because he understood that Jesus died for his sins and he had read out the statement of Salvation and he is Just Once Saved Always Saved????

 

[chessman]

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" (Revelation 2: NASB)
Why do you take away the part about the second death in this passage?

I don’t. Why do you suggest that I do? But there you go again. You’re methods are obvious and illogical. Why would I need to take away anything from these verses.


Your fellow anti-OSAS buddy just acknowledged that right there in the text/message to Smyrna we have Jesus saying “those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (i.e. Those are unsaved people). They don't have ears to hear. I don't see your point.

Yet he ignored the second question because of its obvious implications:
So, I’ll ask you and see if you’ll answer:

1. Are there there unsaved people in Smyrna?

Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will experience affliction ten days. ​

2. Why just some and not all? Ah, never mind, I’ll just answer it myself.

1. Yes. They get the harm of the second death.

2. Some there got tested in prison, some did not. Some were rich (saved), some were “a synagogue of Satan” (un-saved).
A domino that you never acknowledge and always want to make these passages (and others) out to exclusively be about saved people loosing there salvation. They are not all saved people in Smyrna (or in any other church for that matter).

So when I read:

11 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will never be harmed by the second death.’​

I first understand that there are some in Smyrna that are not saved. Which is way Jesus says “The one who has an ear” and not all. He just got through saying there are unsaved people there.

As for “second death”. It is obviously implying the Lake of Fire for those who are “a synagogue of Satan”.

Yet “the One” who is rich (i.e. saved) will “never be harmed” , merely tested/imprisoned.

I have zero problem believing God’s prophesying to the saved people there (“the ones who have an ear to hear the Spirit”) that they “will never be harmed by the second death”. Have you thought this through though? What’s up with that? Jesus prophesying such futures for those that have an ear to hear the Spirit and are about to be sent to prison for claiming they do? What happens to Jesus’ prophesy if they lost their salvation/faith? How could Jesus know what would happen to them and be telling them they will not be harmed. yet you say it’s possible that some (even all I suppose) could lose their salvation. That makes no sense to me.
I’m not quite sure how your position could agree with Jesus' prophesy such as that, given your view. What if they were all like your friend?

Rather than telling me what I’ve not said and telling me what OSAS is requiring you to tell your friend, answer that.

Anyway, other than your false accusation that I “take away the part about the second death” in this passage, you’ve really not made any case here to begin with. Can you make a case for how this passage proves anti-OSAS, without first falsely assuming that all people in Smyrna are saved? I honestly have no idea what your point is with Rev 2:12-17.

 

[JLB]

I don’t. Why do you suggest that I do? But there you go again. You’re methods are obvious and illogical. Why would I need to take away anything from these verses.


Your fellow anti-OSAS buddy just acknowledged that right there in the text/message to Smyrna we have Jesus saying “those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (i.e. Those are unsaved people). They don't have ears to hear. I don't see your point.

Yet he ignored the second question because of its obvious implications:
So, I’ll ask you and see if you’ll answer:

1. Are there there unsaved people in Smyrna?

Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will experience affliction ten days. ​

2. Why just some and not all? Ah, never mind, I’ll just answer it myself.

1. Yes. They get the harm of the second death.

2. Some there got tested in prison, some did not. Some were rich (saved), some were “a synagogue of Satan” (un-saved).
A domino that you never acknowledge and always want to make these passages (and others) out to exclusively be about saved people loosing there salvation. They are not all saved people in Smyrna (or in any other church for that matter).

So when I read:

11 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will never be harmed by the second death.’​

I first understand that there are some in Smyrna that are not saved. Which is way Jesus says “The one who has an ear” and not all. He just got through saying there are unsaved people there.

As for “second death”. It is obviously implying the Lake of Fire for those who are “a synagogue of Satan”.

Yet “the One” who is rich (i.e. saved) will “never be harmed” , merely tested/imprisoned.

I have zero problem believing God’s prophesying to the saved people there (“the ones who have an ear to hear the Spirit”) that they “will never be harmed by the second death”. Have you thought this through though? What’s up with that? Jesus prophesying such futures for those that have an ear to hear the Spirit and are about to be sent to prison for claiming they do? What happens to Jesus’ prophesy if they lost their salvation/faith? How could Jesus know what would happen to them and be telling them they will not be harmed. yet you say it’s possible that some (even all I suppose) could lose their salvation. That makes no sense to me.
I’m not quite sure how your position could agree with Jesus' prophesy such as that, given your view. What if they were all like your friend?

Rather than telling me what I’ve not said and telling me what OSAS is requiring you to tell your friend, answer that.

Anyway, other than your false accusation that I “take away the part about the second death” in this passage, you’ve really not made any case here to begin with. Can you make a case for how this passage proves anti-OSAS, without first falsely assuming that all people in Smyrna are saved? I honestly have no idea what your point is with Rev 2:12-17.

Some of you in prison...that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.

Of the group that gets thrown into prison, Jesus encourages them to overcome...

Again, Brother, please just answer the question.


He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

Is the "he' in this phrase, a saved one or an unsaved one, when these words of warning were spoken to them.


JLB

 

[JLB]

jonahmano said -

Knowing Him more and more and having fellowship with Him so that when a day comes my faith be tested then I won't be led astray.

Awesome word, brother!



JLB

 

[agua.]

Answer for 1st question: Yeah I do believe that we need to read the bible and pray because that's the way we keep our faith. Knowing Him more and more and having fellowship with Him so that when a day comes my faith be tested then I won't be led astray. Do you know that many people in this world were led astray and believed in false doctrines and are facing the wrath of God?? I wish they would have been more matured than milk sucking babes, judging what is right. And I truly believe that bible reading and prayer will make us more mature believers and that's the prominent part in a Christian's life so that he/she could hold on to the faith which he/she believes.

Answer for 2nd question: Great question. But what does the word of God say in 2 Timothy 3:16 and that's why we are here debating. We know that Ephesians says that gossipers will not inherit the kingdom of God. It's is for the word of God to judge and not me. You have a very good logic but don't you think that asking cross questions to pacify others questions is not in the integrity of your conscience?

I asked you a plain question and I wanted a plain answer from you. so when you say that if the man was born-again and he will be saved it means that you are defining a born-again has heard the Word of God, accept the gospel, Repent of past sins, accept Lord Jesus as personal Saviour and even take baptism and then do nothing because he has many financial business commitments which are at tight schedulue and that will run to the end of his life. He has no time for personal prayer and bible-reading. He just understood that Jesus died on the cross and the statement of Romans 10:9 has got him into the heaven OSAS???? So you mean that this kind of person who had a personal relationship with Christ only for one time in his life is going to be saved, just because he understood that Jesus died for his sins and he had read out the statement of Salvation and he is Just Once Saved Always Saved????

Yeah I do believe that we need to read the bible and pray because that's the way we keep our faith.

How do you account for people who were and are saved without the Bible ?

We know that Ephesians says that gossipers will not inherit the kingdom of God. It's is for the word of God to judge and not me. You have a very good logic but don't you think that asking cross questions to pacify others questions is not in the integrity of your conscience?

My conscience is ok and I agree Yahweh will judge these things. The reason I ask is because considering, as you say a gossiper will not inherit the Kingdom, how many times do you suggest a person can misrepresent another person and remain saved ?

I asked you a plain question and I wanted a plain answer from you. so when you say that if the man was born-again and he will be saved it means that you are defining a born-again has heard the Word of God, accept the gospel, Repent of past sins, accept Lord Jesus as personal Saviour and even take baptism and then do nothing because he has many financial business commitments which are at tight schedulue and that will run to the end of his life.

Poster Jonahmano I answered your question plainly. If a man is Born again he will be saved regardless of the extra Biblical conditions you place on him. There are many people who claim to do the very things you suggest yet remain unsaved. Wolves in sheeps clothing etc. How do you reconcile this ?

Regardless, as you said above, you and I cannot judge a persons salvation but can merely look into their behaviour and judge whether they need adjustment to bring them into line with Yahweh's expectations inside the Body.

 

[jonahmano]

How do you account for people who were and are saved without the Bible ?



My conscience is ok and I agree Yahweh will judge these things. The reason I ask is because considering, as you say a gossiper will not inherit the Kingdom, how many times do you suggest a person can misrepresent another person and remain saved ?



Poster Jonahmano I answered your question plainly. If a man is Born again he will be saved regardless of the extra Biblical conditions you place on him. There are many people who claim to do the very things you suggest yet remain unsaved. Wolves in sheeps clothing etc. How do you reconcile this ?

Regardless, as you said above, you and I cannot judge a persons salvation but can merely look into their behaviour and judge whether they need adjustment to bring them into line with Yahweh's expectations inside the Body.

Thanks for being frank. I have learnt from you a new doctrine. That a person can be saved just only because one fine day he heard the grace preachers sermon and he was impressed with the deal knowing that you don't have to do anything, just believe that By grace you are saved through faith and the only thing you have to do is believe. Prayers not necessary, Bible reading not necessary, Fellowship Not necessary. What a great deal for that rich busy business man. hmmmmm Nice. OK I don't want to counter you on that because I have not come here to counter people else you may poster me as a gossiper which you are already doing.

Good. I haven't judged any grace preacher's sweet baby but my question was is believing just enough. then if it was just enough I wonder why did the apostles face so much persection penning down so many instructions in the bible. Do this do that. And many even paid every bit of their body in the hands of the persecutors for the sake of the mystery of Christ. I wish they would have led an easy grace preacher's rich business man life. Just believe, say a confession statement and get on with your own business till the end of your breath and lo you are in heaven because there aren't any conditions for a man to get saved.

Finally please don't imposter me. If you think your way of presenting Christ in line with the scriptures then good but we do believe that A person who is saved can't simple sit but grow in the Lord spiritually by knowing Him and having fellowship with Him daily so that He can stand upright on the judgment day.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;" Hebrews 5:9.

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 19:16-19.

Was Jesus doing away with grace and instituting works? Of course not. He was simply stating that in order to enter heaven, you have to be a commandment keeper. And remember we keep the commandments because we are saved, not to be saved.

From the following verses, you will see that by keeping God's commandments we show our love to Him and if we say we know God and keep not His commandments we are liars and the truth is not in us.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3,4.

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." 1 John 3:24.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.




God Bless

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb 3:12-13~~12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

For we have become partners or associates of Christ IF we hold fast to the what? The/our assurance.

This is what we've been saying.

The very same people who try to teach that we have no assurance are in fact the ones who are being described in these very passages.

No, no, no. You misunderstand terribly. Non-OSAS is NOT about a lack of assurance. You have the assurance of your salvation as long as you have trust in Christ. You have no assurance of a salvation you no longer believe and trust in. The author of Hebrews says you no longer have a sacrifice for sin if you trample on the sacrifice for sin you had (Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB).

If we do not hold fast our assurance or confidence in Christ, we WILL be hardened by sin......because sin becomes our focus if we lose our assurance or confidence in Christ.

Correct. This is what non-OSAS says. The sin of the sanctified, but Christ trampling believer is actually more of a sign of his/her rejection of the blood that sanctified them, not necessarily the cause of it.

 

[JLB]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron...But reject profane and old wives' fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 1 Timothy 4:1-2,7

A person must have faith, which comes from God, for salvation, but maintain that gift of faith as a responsible steward, steadfast unto the end, in order to expect to receive the crown of life, which God promised to those who love Him.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10

• We are not those who depart from the faith!

• We are not those who have our conscious seared as with a hot iron!

• We are those who exercise godliness, which is which is profitable, having the promise of the life which is to come.

• We are those who hold fast the faith, and hope and confidence, as well as the promise and the assurance unto the end.

JLB

 

[Gregg]

• We are those who exercise godliness, which is profitable, having the promise of the life which is to come.

• We are those who hold fast the faith, and hope and confidence, as well as the promise and the assurance unto the end.

Being OSAS, I fully agree with this.

 

[follower]

even if osas is right and true, even those who believe it don't know if it's true about them ! they may be right there arm in arm with the others who Yeshua tells on judgment day "be gone from Me, I never knew you" even though they believed fully in osas here on earth,
so what good does it do to concentrate/focus/defend it ?

it might be compared to a buck-private in the army in france during the german occupation.
as long as
that buck-private keeps with his company and obeys all the orders given to him he is under the
protection of the untied states - the whole entire country backs him , so to speak !

but guess what happens to him if he even just as simply falls asleep on watch ,
let alone if he turns around and starts helping the nazis shoot americans ! ? he is executed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As for “second death”. It is obviously implying the Lake of Fire for those who are “a synagogue of Satan”.

It plainly says the lake of fire is not for the one who overcomes, that is, not for those who are faithful even unto death. It plainly says this. Which I'm sure you must agree with. The problem you have is making the passage say that anyone who is saved at Smyrna is automatically an overcomer who can't go to the lake of fire.

I suspect you're applying the OSAS circular reasoning again--saved people can't go to the lake of fire, therefore, those who are being warned about the lake of fire are the unsaved ones at Smyrna. The problem being, it doesn't say that. You're reading the passage through the indoctrination of OSAS and starting out with the doctrinal bias that anywhere saved people are talked about it means they can not go to the lake of fire, instead of reading what the passage actually says, or doesn't say.

"9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich ), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" (Revelation 2:9-11 NASB)

Yet “the One” who is rich (i.e. saved) will “never be harmed” , merely tested/imprisoned.

'Saved people will never be harmed'....show us where it says this in the passage. You're adding that to the passage. And we know what will happen to those who add to the words of John's revelation. :wink

What happens to Jesus’ prophesy if they lost their salvation/faith?

They go to the lake of fire at the end of the age. It says you have to be an overcomer to the very end of life to not go to the lake of fire.

How could Jesus know what would happen to them and be telling them they will not be harmed.

It's a prophecy only in that he is plainly telling them that they will not be harmed if they are faithful even to death. There's a condition attached--'be something'--'be faithful'. He plainly states this condition for them not suffering the second death. But you are adding OSAS bias into it ahead of time and instantly thinking 'oh, these are saved people, so we know they will be successful and not fail to overcome', but the passage does not say that. You added that. The condition is for them to be faithful, and to the very end, not just saved.

...yet you say it’s possible that some (even all I suppose) could lose their salvation. That makes no sense to me.

Read Hebrews 10:26-30. That's where it will make sense to you....that is if you put this OSAS bias on the shelf long enough to just read the plain words of the passage and not filter them through the lenses of the OSAS indoctrination first.

Anyway, other than your false accusation that I “take away the part about the second death” in this passage...

Okay, so you now acknowledge that part of the passage, but now you're guilty of adding OSAS bias to it that says 'saved people can't go to the lake of fire, so we know all saved people at Smyran will not go there', instead of reading what the passage actually says that the condition for not going there is to be faithful, and to the end, not simply saved.

...you’ve really not made any case here to begin with. Can you make a case for how this passage proves anti-OSAS, without first falsely assuming that all people in Smyrna are saved? I honestly have no idea what your point is with Rev 2:12-17.

What the passage doesn't show is that all saved people will be successful at overcoming. What it does say is, BE those who endure in their faith, even to the end of life (the synagogue of satan have nothing, or no one to endure in faith to--he's not talking to them). He is warning saved people of the condition for avoiding the second death. And that condition is to be faithful (don't deny Christ under duress), and to do that to the very end. No where does it say that saved people are in no way capable of denying Christ and, therefore, do not have to fear going to the lake of fire.

 

[chessman]

He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

Is the "he' in this phrase, a saved one or an unsaved one, when these words of warning were spoken to them.

JLB

Obvoulsy He's talking about the ones that will be (shall be as the text says) judged righteous. Tecnically it's a prophecy about the future. So when you ask about their state when these words were spoken, I couldn't say one way or the other. I think it's reasonable to assume Jesus means those that are already saved in Smyrna (in fact my OSAS postion require it) but I wouldn't exclude some that might not have been saved in Smyrna becoming saved between when it was given to John or as they received it or even after it.

But what's your point, though?

Plus, I'm not quit sure where you come up with "these words of warning" from the text itself of Rev 2:11. It's not so much a warning as a defintion/prophecy really of what happens to saved people in general. As I said before, where exactly do you think we disagree on this text. It says what it says. I have no problem with what it says. I don't see any anti-OSAS support within Rev 2:11 (or any other passage in Rev 2, for that matter, or anywhere else). If I did, I wouldn't be OSAS. But you need to make a case for anti-OSAS. You havn't.

Of the group that gets thrown into prison, Jesus encourages them to overcome...

Yes, He certainly does. Overcome what?

Now, since I answered all your questions, will you answer mine? Overcomes what, exactly? What's your view?

The one who conquers ___?___ will never be harmed by the second death.

The one who conquers ___what exactly?___ will never be harmed by the second death.

A. Conquers salvation? Conquers loss of salvation, etc.? Conquers fear of Prison/slander/1st death? Conquers fear of loss of salvation?
​

 

[chessman]

It plainly says the lake of fire is not for the one who overcomes, that is, not for those who are faithful even unto death. It plainly says this. Which I'm sure you must agree with.

of course I agree.

The problem you have is making the passage say that anyone who is saved at Smyrna is automatically an overcomer who can't go to the lake of fire.

Have I ever done that? I merely showed how it's NOT an anti-OSAS passage.

Technically, it's compatible with both OSAS and anti-OSAS. That's been my point(s) about that particular passage. Ya'll are the one's that think it is useful to prove anti-OSAS. I don't.

 

[agua.]

Thanks for being frank. I have learnt from you a new doctrine. That a person can be saved just only because one fine day he heard the grace preachers sermon and he was impressed with the deal knowing that you don't have to do anything, just believe that By grace you are saved through faith and the only thing you have to do is believe. Prayers not necessary, Bible reading not necessary, Fellowship Not necessary. What a great deal for that rich busy business man. hmmmmm Nice. OK I don't want to counter you on that because I have not come here to counter people else you may poster me as a gossiper which you are already doing.

Good. I haven't judged any grace preacher's sweet baby but my question was is believing just enough. then if it was just enough I wonder why did the apostles face so much persection penning down so many instructions in the bible. Do this do that. And many even paid every bit of their body in the hands of the persecutors for the sake of the mystery of Christ. I wish they would have led an easy grace preacher's rich business man life. Just believe, say a confession statement and get on with your own business till the end of your breath and lo you are in heaven because there aren't any conditions for a man to get saved.

Finally please don't imposter me. If you think your way of presenting Christ in line with the scriptures then good but we do believe that A person who is saved can't simple sit but grow in the Lord spiritually by knowing Him and having fellowship with Him daily so that He can stand upright on the judgment day.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;" Hebrews 5:9.

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 19:16-19.

Was Jesus doing away with grace and instituting works? Of course not. He was simply stating that in order to enter heaven, you have to be a commandment keeper. And remember we keep the commandments because we are saved, not to be saved.

From the following verses, you will see that by keeping God's commandments we show our love to Him and if we say we know God and keep not His commandments we are liars and the truth is not in us.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3,4.

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." 1 John 3:24.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.




God Bless

Thanks for being frank. I have learnt from you a new doctrine. That a person can be saved just only because one fine day he heard the grace preachers sermon and he was impressed with the deal knowing that you don't have to do anything, just believe that By grace you are saved through faith and the only thing you have to do is believe. Prayers not necessary, Bible reading not necessary, Fellowship Not necessary. What a great deal for that rich busy business man. hmmmmm Nice. OK I don't want to counter you on that because I have not come here to counter people else you may poster me as a gossiper which you are already doing.

Unfortunately your self diagnosed method of salvation isn't Biblical. Let me give you another analogy.

There's this poor worker who hears a Works Preacher and on that stands up front of church and repeats the words given to him that tell him to give his whole life to Jesus and repent of his worldly life and be saved. This poor working man then goes home all filled with hope and joy and does what the Works Preacher says and tries to do everything he can to gain Yahweh's favour. He reads his Bible daily, prays as much as he can remember, does good deeds when he thinks he should, goes to prayer meetings and Church on Sunday, says " Halelujah" when someone tells him they received a healing miracle when their sore back is better this morning, and even gives 1/10 of his income into the plate ( and extra giftings when requested ). Will this man be saved ?

I haven't judged any grace preacher's sweet baby but my question was is believing just enough. then if it was just enough I wonder why did the apostles face so much persection penning down so many instructions in the bible.

Instructions in righteousness are what a loving Father provides for His Chlidren. Have you ever raised a Child ?

Finally please don't imposter me. If you think your way of presenting Christ in line with the scriptures then good but we do believe that A person who is saved can't simple sit but grow in the Lord spiritually by knowing Him and having fellowship with Him daily so that He can stand upright on the judgment day.

I don't know what you mean by " please don't imposter me". On judgement day Christians don't need to worry about the judgement of the wicked. Jesus took care of that for us.

Rom 8:33-35 KJV Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


We will however receive reward and suffer loss according to what we've done at the Bema Seat and part of this will likely be based upon how we instruct the Brethren in right behaviour, or knowingly allow the Brethren to continue in poor behaiour as the Corinthians did at times.

2Co 5:10 KJV For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

From the following verses, you will see that by keeping God's commandments we show our love to Him and if we say we know God and keep not His commandments we are liars and the truth is not in us.

A Christian will keep Yahweh's commandments or be disciplined by the Brethren or Yahweh. Which commandments do you mean btw ?


.

 

[jonahmano]

Unfortunately your self diagnosed method of salvation isn't Biblical. Let me give you another analogy.

There's this poor worker who hears a Works Preacher and on that stands up front of church and repeats the words given to him that tell him to give his whole life to Jesus and repent of his worldly life and be saved. This poor working man then goes home all filled with hope and joy and does what the Works Preacher says and tries to do everything he can to gain Yahweh's favour. He reads his Bible daily, prays as much as he can remember, does good deeds when he thinks he should, goes to prayer meetings and Church on Sunday, says " Halelujah" when someone tells him they received a healing miracle when their sore back is better this morning, and even gives 1/10 of his income into the plate ( and extra giftings when requested ). Will this man be saved ? .

Why not what has this man done wrong? He has the attitude of walking in Christ whereas the man which I quoted could fellowship with Jesus Christ only once in a lifetime because of his busy business schedules and still you are sure that That man who is Once Saved Always Saved.




.

Instructions in righteousness are what a loving Father provides for His Chlidren. Have you ever raised a Child ?.

Yeah I'm raising a child. What's your problem?





.

I don't know what you mean by " please don't imposter me". On judgement day Christians don't need to worry about the judgement of the wicked. Jesus took care of that for us.

Rom 8:33-35 KJV Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


We will however receive reward and suffer loss according to what we've done at the Bema Seat and part of this will likely be based upon how we instruct the Brethren in right behaviour, or knowingly allow the Brethren to continue in poor behaiour as the Corinthians did at times.

2Co 5:10 KJV For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad..

Yeah let God judge each person we have no issues in that. In this case I'm on your side but I already got the answer from you Christianity is as simple as just believing in Jesus Christ and By grace you are saved and whatever bible reading, prayer, fellowship are not necessary for one person to work out his salvation because He is Once Saved and Always Saved. Fine I have no problem with your approach to save the world but Let God judge everyone of us. That's what I want to say.

When I started the thread, I just asked opinions and I understand each one of you.



.

A Christian will keep Yahweh's commandments or be disciplined by the Brethren or Yahweh. Which commandments do you mean btw ?.

All commandments of the bible.

And remember we keep the commandments because we are saved, not to be saved

 

[agua.]

Why not what has this man done wrong? He has the attitude of walking in Christ whereas the man which I quoted could fellowship with Jesus Christ only once in a lifetime because of his busy business schedules and still you are sure that That man who is Once Saved Always Saved.

I see no where where this man has een Born Again. Remember there will be many people who claim they've done great things when Jesus returns and seem to believe they're saved but aren't. You're the one judging the persons heart poster Jonamano we should maybe leave that to Yahweh.

Rom 14:4 KJV Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Yeah I'm raising a child. What's your problem?

Do you understand that raising a child requires love, instruction in righteousness and discipline when required ? When you child disobeys you what will you do ?

.

Yeah let God judge each person we have no issues in that. In this case I'm on your side but I already got the answer from you Christianity is as simple as just believing in Jesus Christ and By grace you are saved and whatever bible reading, prayer, fellowship are not necessary for one person to work out his salvation because He is Once Saved and Always Saved. Fine I have no problem with your approach to save the world but Let God judge everyone of us. That's what I want to say.

Yes let's let Yahweh judge those outside the Church and worry about those inside. I see many Christians pointing out the oor state of the world and yet accept poor behaviour inside the Church. Very hypocritical and also not inline with Yahweh's Biblical mandates.

When I started the thread, I just asked opinions and I understand each one of you.

Cool !

.

All commandments of the bible.

And remember we keep the commandments because we are saved, not to be saved

Can you list them ?

Yes all Christians will keep Yahweh's commandments or be disciplined. If a person is able to continue in poor behaviour without disciline he/she is not a Child of Yahweh.

Heb 12:8 KJV But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[jonahmano]

I see no where where this man has een Born Again. Remember there will be many people who claim they've done great things when Jesus returns and seem to believe they're saved but aren't. You're the one judging the persons heart poster Jonamano we should maybe leave that to Yahweh.

Rom 14:4 KJV Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

What a great thinking. A man who just believed for once and had no fellowship got saved and a man who believed and obeyed God didn't get saved. Now what is the definition of being born-again according to your thought point. Is that a man who just believed once and did nothing, or is that man who believed and obeyed God? Great let others come on this. Where did I judge any person, I was just asking a question whether if simply sitting Christians can get saved and your answer was OSAS and now we understand who is judging whom.

Do you understand that raising a child requires love, instruction in righteousness and discipline when required ? When you child disobeys you what will you do ?

What if my child has no fellowship with me? What if he goes and stays somewhere looking his own business and never knocked on my door at least once just because he knows I always love him and I will never forsake him???

Can you list them ?

The commandments in the bible are written in simple understanding language. I'm not interested to list them because you know them very well.

Yes all Christians will keep Yahweh's commandments or be disciplined. If a person is able to continue in poor behaviour without disciline he/she is not a Child of Yahweh.

Yea Yahweh will surely discipline His children but only when we are yielded to him that is when you have a continuous relationship with Christ.

And remember we keep the commandments because we are saved, not to be saved