Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

You do realize that I suspect the same of you, right? You asked me to show your circular reasoning to you earlier. I did and it upset you.

Upset? How? No circular reasoning, here. I just read the plain words of scripture. I repented of these gymnastics that many Christians go through to make plain scripture not mean what it so plainly says. When I did that the truth had another growth spurt in my life.

Here it is relative to The Word to Smyrna:

1. Do you think saved people go to the LoF? If so, how so because it's an oxymoron?

No.

Do you think once-saved people go to the LoF?

Yes.

If so, show me the Biblical example of just such a person described in Rev 2 preferably since you brought it up.

The Biblical narrative ends with Revelation. How can I possibly share from the Bible something from a period of time that is not covered by the Bible? You're grasping at straws. Just stick with the passages that are in the Bible and what they so plainly say, as I'm doing.

2. Where do you find "warning(s)" in this Rev 2 prophesy?

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" (Revelation 2:10-11 NASB)

Are you insisting that Jesus is saying, "be faithful, or be unfaithful, it doesn't matter, I'm giving you the crown of life anyway. And, overcome, or don't overcome, it doesn't matter, you're not going to be hurt by the second death either way."

This is the exact spinning of scripture that drives honest, convicted unbelievers crazy. It's ridiculous and unfair, even deceitful, and we the church need to stop doing this. I was called on the carpet about it and I repented. I invite my fellow brothers and sisters to do the same for the sake of Jesus Christ and his witness in the world.

As always, Jesus simply stated the facts. In this case, some present facts in Smyrna and future facts.

I don't find:
I warn you that; The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches ELSE you become unsaved.

So, you're saying that even if I don't remain faithful until death and don't overcome, denying Christ, I still get to have the salvation that I received by acknowledging, not denying, the name of Christ? That is truly a man-made fantasy. Of course fallen flesh wants to hear that.

Or
I warn you that; The one who conquers will never be harmed by the second death ELSE you become unsaved.

Yes....unsaved through a denial of Christ. Through a trampling of the blood of Christ that sanctified you (Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB).

Or certainly not;
I warn you that; Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. ELSE you become unsaved

Yes....unsaved by caving in under the duress of imprisonment and, thus, denying Christ and the faith.

Or certainly not;
I warn you to;
Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will experience affliction ten days
ELSE you become unsaved.

Yes, persecution will test you to see if you will deny the faith. Jesus said in Luke 8:13 NASB / Mark 4:17 NASB that happens. People 'believe for a while' but when trouble and persecution come they fall away because they had no firm root. The testing showed them to not have firm root, not to have not root at all as OSAS claims is true of fallen people.

Or even;
I warn you;
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
ELSE you become unsaved

Yes...unsaved through a denial of Christ and his faith.

But that's simply the difference between the way I study Scripture and they way you post about it circularly. If Jesus had said "I warn you to be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life ELSE you will loss the salvation I gave you in the first place, you'd have a Biblical case.

I'm surprised that you do not understand what logical negation is. If I tell you you can drive my car if you do your homework that obviously means you can not drive my car if you do not do your homework.

One you'd need to reconcile with Jesus knowing His own though (past, present and future). And you'd need to show an example of it occurring, preferably. I know of to many Biblical cases where saved people did not have the full faith in God they should have, yet God disciplined them in love anyway. Moses being just one of many examples.

It's interesting that nobody seems to be able to explain--if OSAS is true--how the unmerciful servant could be forgiven (the passage says that he was), but then lose that forgiveness through his own careless contempt for the forgiveness he had received.

As it stands now, however, you keep making a circular case and false accusations about the OSAS case.

You still have not shown my argument to be circular. Spell it out. Like I did to show your argument as circular.

...false accusations such as the one above or that OSAS is an attempt to build a "license to sin".

Mercy is what saves us from the just payment of our sins. Grace, on the other hand, is what we are given to now walk in holiness. We were not given grace to now sin freely. We were given grace to walk in holiness. Grace is the unmerited favor of God to do what we once could not do. So, if saying sin doesn't matter since we now have God's grace, how does that not make grace a license to sin? That's actually contrary to what grace is--the power to NOT sin. If thinking grace allows us to sin, how is that not making grace a license to sin, instead of grace being a license to be holy?

Again, your posts like the one above have entertainment value, but as to any logical proof of anti-OSAS, there's nothing to them.

Then prove to me that when someone says, "you can have a piece of pie if you eat your dinner" that in no way means you will not get a piece of pie if you don't eat your dinner.

This reminds me of when Jesus talked about the world being more wise than his own people. What I mean is, you can't expect honest people--saved, or unsaved--to somehow accept that when someone says 'you will have this if you do this' that it doesn't really mean that 'if you don't do this, you won't have this'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Who ever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:21-24 NASB)

I see John telling saved people (those who know the truth) that the condition for abiding in the Son and the Father (as opposed to being an antichrist who does not abide in the Son and the Father, denying them) is that what they heard from the beginning must abide in them.

1. Apparently saved people really can deny what they received and believed in the beginning (thus the nature of the warning). He's telling them this because they do know the truth, not because they need to learn it and become 'really' saved.

2. You have to continue to abide in what you heard from the beginning to continue to abide in the Son and the Father. Abiding in Christ is conditional on abiding in the word of Christ.

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

The Biblical narrative ends with Revelation. How can I possibly share from the Bible something from a period of time that is not covered by the Bible? You're grasping at straws. Just stick with the passages that are in the Bible and what they so plainly say, as I'm doing.

Brother, if the Holy Spirit sent you a text message on your phone with these words -

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

How would you apply this word to your life?

You certainly have a biblical reference in which to qualify the word.

How would you take this?

Would it do Him any good to warn you with these words, if it was ISIS who was about to behead you unless you renounced Jesus Christ as Lord, and converted to Islam?





JLB

 

[Kidron]

saved.

2. You have to continue to abide in what you heard from the beginning to continue to abide in the Son and the Father. Abiding in Christ is conditional on abiding in the word of Christ. [/QUOTE]



You abide in Christ by being IN CHRIST.
That is the only way to "abide" in him and that is not what you do, but that is the position that God has placed you in FOREVER, once you become Born again.

but, you can "walk in the Spirit" and not "in the Flesh", as your Discipleship, which is what you are confusing with salvation.

You dont seem to be able to understand that God saves you, and you dont.

Now, AFTER you are saved, is where you seem to keep beating your head against the truth.
For example, you'll take a verse where Paul talks about being a "Castaway", and you think this is regarding "salvation" being "castaway"..
Or you'll read in Hebrews where "If we sin willingly, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin", and you will assume this is someone telling you that you can lose it after you are saved.
Well, sorry, NO.

I guess the issue you have, is that you think that God brings you into his family Based on the CROSS, and then you can get out of the family because you are watching porn one day, or your fornicate tomorrow.

WRONG.

If sinning after you are saved would cause you to "lose it", then why did God save you ANYWAY when he KNOWS THE FUTURE and KNEW YOU WOULD BE sinning those SINS, after you were saved?

See, you seem to think that God didnt have a CLUE as to what you would be doing WRONG a year later, 10 years later, 27 years later, AFTER you were saved.
But i have news for you, and everyone here...........all that sinning you do, and will do, and have done, ......GOD KNEW YOU WOULD DO IT THE DAY HE SAVED YOU AND HE KNEW ALL ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU WERE BORN.


So, you think about that and try not to hurt yourself with the scriptures.


"uhhhh, you mean that GOD KNEW I WOULD WATCH PORN >after< i was SAVED, yet he saved me anyway !!!


UMMMMM, YEP !!!!!!

DUH !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If sinning after you are saved would cause you to "lose it", then why did God save you ANYWAY when he KNOWS THE FUTURE and KNEW YOU WOULD BE sinning those SINS, after you were saved?

See, you seem to think that God didnt have a CLUE as to what you would be doing WRONG a year later, 10 years later, 27 years later, AFTER you were saved.
But i have news for you, and everyone here...........all that sinning you do, and will do, and have done, ......GOD KNEW YOU WOULD DO IT THE DAY HE SAVED YOU AND HE KNEW ALL ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU WERE BORN.


So, you think about that and try not to hurt yourself with the scriptures.


"uhhhh, you mean that GOD KNEW I WOULD WATCH PORN >after< i was SAVED, yet he saved me anyway !!!


UMMMMM, YEP !!!!!!

DUH !

In Matthew 18:27 NASB (one of the books that doesn't fit in well with OSAS doctrine) the king forgave the servant his debt, but later the king reinstated his debt when the servant showed contempt for the forgiveness he had received (Matthew 18:34 NASB). And Jesus spoke this parable saying the kingdom is like this (Matthew 18:23,35 NASB). But you're going to tell us that this is NOT how the kingdom is like--that it's not like how the kingdom is because really King Jesus knows ahead of time who will treat his forgiveness with contempt and, therefore, won't even give it to them in the first place?

 

[chessman]

Brother, if the Holy Spirit sent you a text message on your phone with these words -
"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
How would you apply this word to your life?

Got any baseball cap?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother, if the Holy Spirit sent you a text message on your phone with these words -

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

How would you apply this word to your life?

I would hit 'delete', because I'm saved and everybody knows that only unbelievers can go to the lake of fire.

 

[jonahmano]

Do you disagree Roman's 10:9-11 ?

Rom 10:9-11 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Where did I say I disagreed Romans 10:9-11. I said I will not pause at Romans 10:9-11 but I will move forward to Romans 8:14




I don't see any contradiction with Romans 10:9-11 here cool.



Cool I'm pleased you don't have to lie poster Jonahmano and you're correct Yahweh will judge all things.

Do you operate more than one account on this forum ?

Straight answer, I don't operate multiple accounts in this forum.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(Jethro said...)
2. You have to continue to abide in what you heard from the beginning to continue to abide in the Son and the Father. Abiding in Christ is conditional on abiding in the word of Christ.

(Kidron response...)
You abide in Christ by being IN CHRIST.
That is the only way to "abide" in him and that is not what you do, but that is the position that God has placed you in FOREVER, once you become Born again.

That's not what Paul teaches in Romans 11...

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you,either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you,God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. " (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

I don't see a 'forever' abiding in the root. I see the condition for abiding in the root as a continuing faith in, not a denial of Christ, "OTHERWISE you also will be cut off".

...but, you can "walk in the Spirit" and not "in the Flesh", as your Discipleship, which is what you are confusing with salvation.

We see from the scriptures that those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ, but who then treat that blood with contempt suffer the damnation of the unbelieving enemies of God, not simply get lovingly swatted on the proverbial rear end for that contempt and sent back into the playroom to play.

You dont seem to be able to understand that God saves you, and you dont.

That's not the point. Everybody knows this, just as everybody knows you can save 15% or more by calling Geico.

The point is you got that salvation, that you can't do yourself, by having faith in the blood of Christ. What you're ignoring is the whole counsel of God says you must continue in that which you heard and believed in the beginning to continue in the salvation that faith secures for you. But you're making it out to be that you taking the responsibility to continue in what you first heard and believed is now you somehow trying to save yourself. That's absurd. If my faith didn't earn my salvation when I first believed, how is my continued faith now earning salvation?

Now, AFTER you are saved, is where you seem to keep beating your head against the truth.
For example, you'll take a verse where Paul talks about being a "Castaway", and you think this is regarding "salvation" being "castaway"..
Or you'll read in Hebrews where "If we sin willingly, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin", and you will assume this is someone telling you that you can lose it after you are saved.
Well, sorry, NO.

Oh, I see. Even though it says there is no more sacrifice for sin for the person who treats the sacrifice for sin by which he was sanctified with contempt that doesn't really mean there is no more sacrifice for sin for him. That is what you're telling me I am to assume, right? Not that somehow the plain words of the passage can actually mean exactly what they say.

 

[jonahmano]

All Saints(who are saved for eternity) (who are real and true Saints and not false or fake Saints; i.e. Saints in Yhwh's estimation with no regard for what the world or church calls a saint)
will endure to the end, and be saved.

Other Saints, errr.... saints?... , who are called saints on earth and even think themselves to be saints,
will be told on Judgment Day by the Judge "be gone from Me , I never knew you".

Like the tares amongst the wheat, Yhwh says they look the same(?), leave them alone - don't touch. the angel will separate them out at the end of the age. it is not for us to do.

the challenge is "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (because so much is at stake, and because so many are lied to, and because traps are laid every day for the man of Yhwh, even in the house of Yhwh)

Every man led by the Spirit of God knows whether he is a saint or not. False humility is also dangerous. Why does it say in Romans, Offer your bodies as living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God? May be there isn't persecution right know but there are many things to be endured. Living a Christian life is not bed of roses. Maybe grace preachers have turned it other way but the fact is that Every Christian has to endure. That's how a character of a person is built

 

[jonahmano]

I don't see any contradiction with Romans 10:9-11 here cool.


Cool I'm pleased you don't have to lie poster Jonahmano and you're correct Yahweh will judge all things..

Straight answer, I don't operate multiple accounts in this forum

 

[jonahmano]

saved.

2. You have to continue to abide in what you heard from the beginning to continue to abide in the Son and the Father. Abiding in Christ is conditional on abiding in the word of Christ.

You abide in Christ by being IN CHRIST.
That is the only way to "abide" in him and that is not what you do, but that is the position that God has placed you in FOREVER, once you become Born again.

but, you can "walk in the Spirit" and not "in the Flesh", as your Discipleship, which is what you are confusing with salvation.

You dont seem to be able to understand that God saves you, and you dont.[/QUOTE]

Where do we differ in you saying that God saves us and we don't save ourselves but there is a part of us to be played and that's called obedience. Obedient to His word. Thy Word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee. Now tell me the condition of a person of an OSAS who doesn't have time to read the bible because his pastor said, bible reading, fellowship and personal prayers are external things which has nothing to do with salvation.

Now, AFTER you are saved, is where you seem to keep beating your head against the truth.
For example, you'll take a verse where Paul talks about being a "Castaway", and you think this is regarding "salvation" being "castaway"..
Or you'll read in Hebrews where "If we sin willingly, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin", and you will assume this is someone telling you that you can lose it after you are saved.
Well, sorry, NO.

I guess the issue you have, is that you think that God brings you into his family Based on the CROSS, and then you can get out of the family because you are watching porn one day, or your fornicate tomorrow.

WRONG.

That's not the thing but you can't do a lukewarm business with God. It irritates him and that's why He says either be hot or cold. Now tell me do you think that watching porn one day and ask forgiveness the other day and again watching and again asking forgiveness, Ask your conscience, Is that the right way to fellowship with God??

If sinning after you are saved would cause you to "lose it", then why did God save you ANYWAY when he KNOWS THE FUTURE and KNEW YOU WOULD BE sinning those SINS, after you were saved?

Because God loves everyone of us. He does know the future and he did knew the future of Judas Iscariot.

See, you seem to think that God didnt have a CLUE as to what you would be doing WRONG a year later, 10 years later, 27 years later, AFTER you were saved.
But i have news for you, and everyone here...........all that sinning you do, and will do, and have done, ......GOD KNEW YOU WOULD DO IT THE DAY HE SAVED YOU AND HE KNEW ALL ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU WERE BORN.

Isn't that an excuse? Yea, God knows but do you know? Don't look yourself in the position of God. Look yourself in your position. Think if you are the bride with the oil when the bridegroom comes if you are ready with the oil.

 

[JLB]

Got any baseball cap?

Brother, Please answer me honestly?

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Would it do Him any good to warn you with these words, if it was ISIS who was about to behead you unless you renounced Jesus Christ as Lord, and converted to Islam?

You know that people living in America have not had to face these types of testings as those in the area where these words were penned.

However, persecution has begun in America and will only increase until His Coming.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam and still expect to be saved?

You were converted to Christ, if you turn away from Christ in the face of death and convert to Islam by which you must declare Allah as your Lord, do you honestly believe you will still be saved/

Please answer Yes or No.


Thanks, JLB

 

[jonahmano]

Brother, Please answer me honestly?

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Would it do Him any good to warn you with these words, if it was ISIS who was about to behead you unless you renounced Jesus Christ as Lord, and converted to Islam?

You know that people living in America have not had to face these types of testings as those in the area where these words were penned.

However, persecution has begun in America and will only increase until His Coming.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam and still expect to be saved?

You were converted to Christ, if you turn away from Christ in the face of death and convert to Islam by which you must declare Allah as your Lord, do you honestly believe you will still be saved/

Please answer Yes or No.


Thanks, JLB

Nice Post brother. When a sword is placed on the neck then the true testing comes into the picture then the wheat and tares will be revealed. I pray God that He may give me strength to face those kind of situations.

For me to live is Christ and to die is gain

 

[follower]

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/crossholyspirit.htm

not many ever get to hear this. (or read it). let the righteous be still more righteous, and the wicked still more wicked .... it is written.​

 

[JLB]

Nice Post brother. When a sword is placed on the neck then the true testing comes into the picture then the wheat and tares will be revealed. I pray God that He may give me strength to face those kind of situations.

For me to live is Christ and to die is gain

Amen! God is my Strength.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Contrary to popular OSAS doctrine, look what the Bible says happens to those servants of the Master who don't continue in readiness...

32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

35 "Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit. 36 "Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. 37 "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them. 38 "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. 39 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 40 "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves , both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:32,35-46 NASB)

But OSAS says that even if you do slack off after believing you will only suffer a loss of rewards. But what I see here is the same thing the author of Hebrews says--that those who show contempt for the sanctification they have in Jesus will suffer along with the enemies of God, with no sacrifice for sin left to rescue them from the fate of the unbelieving.

 

[agua.]

JLB said: ↑
Straight answer, I don't operate multiple accounts in this forum

Ok thanks.

 

[JLB]

Ok thanks.

I didn't say that.

That was from post 888.


JLB

 

[agua.]

Brother, Please answer me honestly?

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Would it do Him any good to warn you with these words, if it was ISIS who was about to behead you unless you renounced Jesus Christ as Lord, and converted to Islam?

You know that people living in America have not had to face these types of testings as those in the area where these words were penned.

However, persecution has begun in America and will only increase until His Coming.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam and still expect to be saved?

You were converted to Christ, if you turn away from Christ in the face of death and convert to Islam by which you must declare Allah as your Lord, do you honestly believe you will still be saved/

Please answer Yes or No.


Thanks, JLB

Poster JLB please answer me honestly ?

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Would it do Him any good to encourage you with these words, if it was ISIS who was about to behead you unless you renounced Jesus Christ as Lord, and converted to Islam?

However, persecution has begun in America and will only increase until His Coming.

Do you believe you could renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam and think you were ever saved ?

You beleive you were converted to Christ, if you turn away from Christ in the face of death and convert to Islam by which you must declare Allah as your Lord, do you honestly believe you were ever saved ?

Please answer Yes or No.

John said you never were !!!


1Jn 2:19 KJV They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Please consider this carefully !!!