Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

Why do you consider this question to be chasing my tail?

You say 'If this . . . and if that . . .'; and you also say 'Do you . . . and would you . . .' You are caught up in conditional words and subjunctives, that do not modify a truth.

You have entered into a vicious circle of misunderstanding the Scriptures, not being able to discern a few basic truths; so you have mis-interpreted a wide swath of Scripture built upon misinterpretation. Your misunderstanding of a few Scriptures has led to your modification of many Scriptures. Those modifications support your misunderstanding. It is a relentless and vicious circle.

(Edited,, ToS 2.4 "Address issues not personalities" Do not offer unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

You say 'If this . . . and if that . . .'; and you also say 'Do you . . . and would you . . .' You are caught up in conditional words and subjunctives, that do not modify a truth.

You have entered into a vicious circle of misunderstanding the Scriptures, not being able to discern a few basic truths; so you have mis-interpreted a wide swath of Scripture built upon misinterpretation. Your misunderstanding of a few Scriptures has led to your modification of many Scriptures. Those modifications support your misunderstanding. It is a relentless and vicious circle.

(Edited,, ToS 2.4 "Address issues not personalities" Do not offer unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah.)

Nice try Brother.

If you can't answer a simple question, then it seems your doctrine has been weighed and found wanting.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as your Lord, and still expect to be saved?

The answer is a resounding NO!!!

A born again believer who renounces Jesus Christ as Lord, and converts to Islam and confesses Allah as Lord, has in fact put their trust in another god, to obey his new master, and will end up in the same place as their new master and lord.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Nice try Brother.

If you can't answer a simple question, then it seems your doctrine has been weighed and found wanting.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as your Lord, and still expect to be saved?

The answer is a resounding NO!!!

A born again believer who renounces Jesus Christ as Lord, and converts to Islam and confesses Allah as Lord, has in fact put their trust in another god, to obey his new master, and will end up in the same place as their new master and lord.


JLB

It is easy to answer that question. Yes, a saved person will still be saved....Philippians 1:6~~For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:24~~Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Psalm 146:6~~Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;

1 Cor 1:9~~God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

But from what I understand, You don't even consider yourself saved right? Not until death?

 

[Gregg]

Nice try Brother.

If you can't answer a simple question, then it seems your doctrine has been weighed and found wanting.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as your Lord, and still expect to be saved?

The answer is a resounding NO!!!

A born again believer who renounces Jesus Christ as Lord, and converts to Islam and confesses Allah as Lord, has in fact put their trust in another god, to obey his new master, and will end up in the same place as their new master and lord.


JLB

A man having faith in God and in himself misdirects his belief, his faith being divided between God and himself. That man has remained his own master.

 

[JLB]

A man having faith in God and in himself misdirects his belief, his faith being divided between God and himself. That man has remained his own master.

Great word!

Now please answer the simple question.

Do you believe you can renounce Jesus Christ in the face of torture and death, and convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as your Lord, and still expect to be saved?

I answered, NO!!!

Please stand up for what you believe.

If you don't know, then just say, I don't know.

If you believe a Christian who is in Christ, can convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as your Lord, and still expect to be saved, then just answer yes, if that's what you believe?

I have seen alot of "talk" about Joel Osteen, and him caving in and not saying that Jesus is the Only way the God...

I answered my own question.

Chessman answered No!

What is your answer?


JLB

 

[chessman]

If this is true, then don't you think Jesus should have said 'crown of glory' instead (1 Peter 5:4,2-4 NASB)? As you can see, you're interpretation is not consistent with scripture.

Or my interpretation is entirely consistent with 1 Peter 5 and James (Both writing to the 12 Tribes in dispersion undergoing various trials.

1 Peter 5:4
And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory​

James 1:12
Blessed is the person who endures testing, because when he is approved he will receive the crown of life that he has promised to those who love him.​

Are you trying to tell me that you think James meant that saved people that do not even receive testing (much less endure it kind of like American Saved people) are unsaved even though he calls them brothers? Rather, James understands that there are mature Christians and there are those that need more maturing.

James 1:12 Blessed is the person who endures testing, because when he is approved he will receive the crown of life that he has promised to those who love him.

2 Consider it all joy, my brothers, whenever you encounter various trials, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing.

you are distressed by various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more valuable than gold that is passing away, but is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor (i.e. crownn of glory) at the revelation of Jesus Christ​

Peter said "crown of glory" yet James choose to say "crown of life", yet neither said "eternal life" as Jesus does when speaking of salvation.
Those phrases were spoken to saved elders that lead properly yet did not necessarily face the trail of death.

And Jesus said "crown of life" to the saved church members (that already had "eternal life) there that overcame their testing "fear of death". Eternal life plus a crown to go with it because of their passing their test of death and maturing toward perfection. My view is perfectly consistent with 1 Peter 5, James 1 and Rev 2. Eternal life is a reward in and of itself. If you wanted to communicate even more reward to a few specific people in Smyrna facing death receiving a "crown of life" is perfectly reasonable. Or, on the other hand, if you want to communicate extra reward to church elders facing poverty in dispersion because of the Gospel, how better to say it than "crown of glory". Nothing inconsistent about it.

But at least I see you agreeing that 'being faithful until death and I'll give you the crown of life' also means that 'if you're not faithful unto death you won't get the crown of life'. The sad part is you're now trying to define 'crown of life' to preserve a doctrine of OSAS, but have chosen a definition that is not consistent with the rest of scripture.

First, I am now trying to define 'crown of life' the same way I always have defined it, without regard to OSAS one way or the other. I couldn't care less if OSAS were true or not. Other than I think it's the consistent message of Scripture(s) (all of them). Just because I am NOW defining it that way (which I am) DOES NOT imply that I once defined it any other way. Logically speaking.

Second, Exactly how is my definition of "crown of life" inconsistent with Peter's "crown of glory"? My definition is very inconsistent with your view that they both mean "eternal life", sure. But my definition is not inconsistent with 1 Peter 5 or James 1 or Rev 2. In fact, it's entirely consistent with them all. Have you thought this (your argument) through? That Rev 2's "Crown of Life" does not mean a crown/reward as 1 Peter's "Crown of Glory" does because they are not technically the exact same phrase (even though they both obviously are talking about crowns)? If your argument is valid, what does that do to the fact that neither phrase are the exact same phrase as "eternal life" or better yet "salvation"? Inconsistency is a sign of error. I consistently think a crown is just that, a crown. And saved is just that, saved. Now, where does the Bible uses the term unsaved? It doesn't. It's consistently absent. Yes, I know you assume "unsaved" is what is meant in all kinds of texts. But I mean where does the Bible use the exact word "unsaved"? Never!

​

 

[chessman]

Quoting Hymn's isnt going to change the clear and eternal truth's that have been presented from God's Word.


JLB

I know. I'm just saying. If your worship service every starts to sing this one "No not one", you should probably excuse yourself.

 

[gr8grace3]

Or my interpretation is entirely consistent with 1 Peter 5 and James (Both writing to the 12 Tribes in dispersion undergoing various trials.

1 Peter 5:4
And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory​

James 1:12
Blessed is the person who endures testing, because when he is approved he will receive the crown of life that he has promised to those who love him.​

Are you trying to tell me that you think James meant that saved people that do not even receive testing (much less endure it kind of like American Saved people) are unsaved even though he calls them brothers? Rather, James understands that there are mature Christians and there are those that need more maturing.

James 1:12 Blessed is the person who endures testing, because when he is approved he will receive the crown of life that he has promised to those who love him.

2 Consider it all joy, my brothers, whenever you encounter various trials, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing.

you are distressed by various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more valuable than gold that is passing away, but is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor (i.e. crownn of glory) at the revelation of Jesus Christ​

Peter said "crown of glory" yet James choose to say "crown of life", yet neither said "eternal life" as Jesus does when speaking of salvation.
Those phrases were spoken to saved elders that lead properly yet did not necessarily face the trail of death.

And Jesus said "crown of life" to the saved church members (that already had "eternal life) there that overcame their testing "fear of death". Eternal life plus a crown to go with it because of their passing their test of death and maturing toward perfection. My view is perfectly consistent with 1 Peter 5, James 1 and Rev 2. Eternal life is a reward in and of itself. If you wanted to communicate even more reward to a few specific people in Smyrna facing death receiving a "crown of life" is perfectly reasonable. Or, on the other hand, if you want to communicate extra reward to church elders facing poverty in dispersion because of the Gospel, how better to say it than "crown of glory". Nothing inconsistent about it.



First, I am now trying to define 'crown of life' the same way I always have defined it, without regard to OSAS one way or the other. I couldn't care less if OSAS were true or not. Other than I think it's the consistent message of Scripture(s) (all of them). Just because I am NOW defining it that way (which I am) DOES NOT imply that I once defined it any other way. Logically speaking.

Second, Exactly how is my definition of "crown of life" inconsistent with Peter's "crown of glory"? My definition is very inconsistent with your view that they both mean "eternal life", sure. But my definition is not inconsistent with 1 Peter 5 or James 1 or Rev 2. In fact, it's entirely consistent with them all. Have you thought this (your argument) through? That Rev 2's "Crown of Life" does not mean a crown/reward as 1 Peter's "Crown of Glory" does because they are not technically the exact same phrase (even though they both obviously are talking about crowns)? If your argument is valid, what does that do to the fact that neither phrase are the exact same phrase as "eternal life" or better yet "salvation"? Inconsistency is a sign of error. I consistently think a crown is just that, a crown. And saved is just that, saved. Now, where does the Bible uses the term unsaved? It doesn't. It's consistently absent. Yes, I know you assume "unsaved" is what is meant in all kinds of texts. But I mean where does the Bible use the exact word "unsaved"? Never!

​

I believe you have the crowns figured out Chessman. The Crown of life is a reward for the SAVED who carry out Gods plan for their life and endure suffering and trials. Some choose to do it and some do not. James 1:12~~Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

The crown of Glory is for Pastor teachers. If they successfully teach true bible doctrine and follow their calling, their Crown of Glory is from the people who reached spiritual maturity under their teaching. Philippians 4:1~~Therefore, my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown, in this way stand firm in the Lord, my beloved. 1 Thessalonians 2:19~~For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 1 Peter 5:4~~And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.......People who have been in Charge of a flock.

 

[chessman]

I believe you have the crowns figured out Chessman. The Crown of life is a reward for the SAVED who carry out Gods plan for their life and endure suffering and trials.

The crown of Glory is for Pastor teachers. If they successfully teach true bible doctrine and follow their calling, their Crown of Glory is from the people who reached spiritual maturity under their teaching.

I hope I've gotten them right. I think so, with all honesty.

And it seems very consistent with Paul's usages, as you point out, as well. If Peter's, Paul's, James' and Jesus' use differed from my use, I'd change my use of these 'crowns' from one that taught de-salvation.

Revelation 2:10, 17 Do not be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested, and you will experience affliction ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. ​

I will give to him some of the hidden manna, ​

If being saved is "don't be afraid of death", most atheist make it to Heaven and most children don't.

If the Gospel is about hidden manna, then we're all in trouble.

 

[Kathi]

I do not think you can lose your salvation after truly being saved.But were you truly saved in the first place?

 

[JLB]

It is easy to answer that question. Yes, a saved person will still be saved....Philippians 1:6~~For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:24~~Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Psalm 146:6~~Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;

1 Cor 1:9~~God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

But from what I understand, You don't even consider yourself saved right? Not until death?

Wrong!

However I must continue to the end of my life, trusting in Christ and the Blood He shed on the cross as my hope of salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It is easy to answer that question. Yes, a saved person will still be saved....Philippians 1:6~~For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:24~~Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Psalm 146:6~~Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;

1 Cor 1:9~~God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

But from what I understand, You don't even consider yourself saved right? Not until death?

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

This word is to saints, not to the world, as they already have their place in the lake of fire.

HERE IS THE PATIENTS OF THE SAINTS!

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb...


Your theology is directly opposed to what the Apostles and Jesus taught us.


You can not confess Allah as your God and expect to still be saved.

That is idolatry!

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[Gregg]

If you believe a Christian who is in Christ, can convert to Islam, by confessing Allah as your Lord, and still expect to be saved, then just answer yes, if that's what you believe?

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me' " (John 14:6).

If someone doesn't answer your question after you ask a couple of times, don't keep asking; don't assume a reason why, just let it go. (Edited, ToS 2.14 "Please do not use the message board to air your grievances against other fellow members. If you have observed a violation of the Terms of Service please let a Moderator or Administrator know." This is why we now have the "Report" Hyperlink. Obadiah)

Take a deep breath, and relax, and stick to apologetics and theology; (Edited, Tos 2.14 "Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response." Obadiah)

- - -

"They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us" (1John 2:19).

 

[JLB]

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me' " (John 14:6).

If someone doesn't answer your question after you ask a couple of times, don't keep asking; don't assume a reason why, just let it go. (Edited, ToS 2.14 "Please do not use the message board to air your grievances against other fellow members. If you have observed a violation of the Terms of Service please let a Moderator or Administrator know." This is why we now have the "Report" Hyperlink. Obadiah)

Take a deep breath, and relax, and stick to apologetics and theology; (Edited, Tos 2.14 "Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response." Obadiah)

- - -

"They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us" (1John 2:19).

That is really the best move for you brother.

(Edited, response to removed portion of quote. Obadiah)


JLB

 

[JLB]

12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. Revelation 2:12-13


The OSAS doctrine pretty much makes a mockery of those who have and will lay down their lives as faithful martyrs of the Lamb of God.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom" (Dan 7:21-22 NIV).

 

[JLB]

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom" (Dan 7:21-22 NIV).

Yes, that's a great scripture.

What is your point in connection with the OP?


JLB

 

[CORE]

It's amazing how this subject continues to dominate the forums...

For those of you who are palpably challenged, if you can lose your salvation, then it's obvious you haven't been saved...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's amazing how this subject continues to dominate the forums...

For those of you who are palpably challenged, if you can lose your salvation, then it's obvious you haven't been saved...

Your turn:

Explain how people hoping in Christ, sanctified by the blood of Christ, can't trample on the blood of Christ and lose the only sacrifice for sin that exists as punishment for doing that, even though the scriptures plainly say they can and what will happen if they do:

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longerremains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIREWHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Mosesdies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishmentdo you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded asunclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit ofgrace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." " (Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

It's amazing what people will do to make this not mean what it so plainly says.

 

[chessman]

...Revelation 14:9-12

This word is to saints, not to the world, as they already have their place in the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,
​

Rev 9-12 is a part (The Third Angel's part) of this message (an eternal Gospel) prophesied by John to be proclaimed specifically to, and I quote; "every nation and tribe...and people". You helped proclaim this Gospel to them, right? Why do you say then it is a word, and I quote; "not to the world"? Your statement directly conflicts with the Scripture here.

Oh! Wait a minute, I get it. If you can somehow convince people (the one's that aren't reading verse 6, of course) that John prophesied "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" exclusively to saved saints, then you'd have an anti-OSAS passage. You have a problem however. God's Word in verse 6 stands forever and you can't change it. And shouldn't try to.