Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

Chessman, chessman, chessman....

The context of this warning to the Smyrnanites is clearly life, not reward for pastoral service (as you are interpreting the crown):

"8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich ), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" (Revelation 2:8-11 NASB)

But you insist 'crown of life' does not mean eternal life. How can an honest person swallow that? Clearly, the message to them is 'do not be afraid of death, if you remain faithful and overcome you will live again, just as I died and live again'.

 

[JLB]

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel flying directly overhead, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who reside on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and language and people,
​

Rev 9-12 is a part (The Third Angel's part) of this message (an eternal Gospel) prophesied by John to be proclaimed specifically to, and I quote; "every nation and tribe...and people". You helped proclaim this Gospel to them, right? Why do you say then it is a word, and I quote; "not to the world"? Your statement directly conflicts with the Scripture here.

Oh! Wait a minute, I get it. If you can somehow convince people (the one's that aren't reading verse 6, of course) that John prophesied "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone" exclusively to saved saints, then you'd have an anti-OSAS passage. You have a problem however. God's Word in verse 6 stands forever and you can't change it. And shouldn't try to.

We have an angel preaching the Gospel to those who dwell on the earth, the Gospel is the warning to those who dwell on the earth to avoid the lake of fire.
If those who dwell on the earth don't repent, and obey the Gospel, the mark of the beast will make no difference.


Now we come to the warning of the third angel: The saints are under heavy persecution and Tribulation, as many have already turn away to follow the beast.

I believe many will be saved through the previous angels message with the Gospel!

Now comes the warning about the mark of the beast to the saints!

The warning is to those who are alive and remain.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Bottom line:

If ANYONE WORSHIPS THE BEAST OR TAKES HIS MARK THEY WILL SUFFER THE SAME FATE AS THE BEAST.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

This word is to saints, not to the world, as they already have their place in the lake of fire.

HERE IS THE PATIENTS OF THE SAINTS!

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb...


Your theology is directly opposed to what the Apostles and Jesus taught us.


You can not confess Allah as your God and expect to still be saved.

That is idolatry!

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

DISSENSIONS~~
noun
1.
strong disagreement; a contention or quarrel; discord.
2.
difference in sentiment or opinion; disagreement.

CONTENTIONS~~

n
1. a struggling between opponents; competition
2. dispute in an argument (esp in the phrase bone of contention)
3. (Rhetoric) a point asserted in argument

I guess none of us are going to make it. But seriously JLB, what do you do with this?. We have all been practicing contentions and dissensions on this thread, not to mention the countless other threads that are going on. If your interpretation of this verse is true,then none of us will make it.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

The Good work He began in us is not just a "good" work. It is an absolute or intrinsic good work. And He will perfect it........what say you about Philippians 1:6?

 

[chessman]

The context of this warning to the Smyrnanites is clearly life, not reward for pastoral service (as you are interpreting the crown):

You read my posts in a haphazard and incorrect manner and thusly misunderstand me. I'm here to correct your misunderstanding. I believe The Text uses "Crown of Glory" as a reward for appropriate pastoral and/or teaching service not so much the "Crown of Life". Although pastoral calling is obviously a part of a pastor's life, facing death because of it is not common in a free religion society/city. Similar, but not exactly, as the Rev 2 text is using "Crown of Life" as in a reward (a crown) to the pre-saved people that face the test of death for their faithfulness to the Gospel in a society/city that kills Christians.

I do not ignore the fact that the terms say "crown" in them or the fact that some saved people are saved without receiving the reward of crowns.

Because you desire Rev 2 to be an anti-OSAS message so you insert "warnings" and "if you reject Christ" into the intended message of how one goes about receiving crowns.

Do you or don't you believe some people will wear crowns in Heaven?

If yes, what texts lead you to that conclusion?
If no, why does the Bible talk about crowns?

 

[JLB]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

DISSENSIONS~~
noun
1.
strong disagreement; a contention or quarrel; discord.
2.
difference in sentiment or opinion; disagreement.

CONTENTIONS~~

n
1. a struggling between opponents; competition
2. dispute in an argument (esp in the phrase bone of contention)
3. (Rhetoric) a point asserted in argument

I guess none of us are going to make it. But seriously JLB, what do you do with this?. We have all been practicing contentions and dissensions on this thread, not to mention the countless other threads that are going on. If your interpretation of this verse is true,then none of us will make it.

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

The Good work He began in us is not just a "good" work. It is an absolute or intrinsic good work. And He will perfect it........what say you about Philippians 1:6?

That's awesome Brother.

I pray you will continue and trust that God will perfect it...

Please keep and maintain and nurture this confidence until the end, so that he will grant to you the crown of life.


Please consider doing a study on what God does to perfect, which means bring to maturity, your faith.

Maybe you could share a few scriptures with us about what a person goes through, in order for the good work of faith and patients to be perfected.


1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.
These things command and teach!

16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:1-2,11,16

Keep the confidence unto the end!

Test yourself, to see if you are in the faith.

Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.


JLB

 

[Obadiah]

A reminder to all: ToS 2.7 states "All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc." Please start referencing which translation you are using when quoting scripture. This is a matter of law, not just our ToS, and it is also a matter of transparency to our readers to not make them search through countless translations to find the one you are quoting from if they want to read the scripture in it's context in that translation. This applies to all of us. Thanks.

FYI, the NKJV is NOT public domain and not to be confused with the KJV.

 

[chessman]

Bottom line:

If ANYONE WORSHIPS THE BEAST OR TAKES HIS MARK THEY WILL SUFFER THE SAME FATE AS THE BEAST.

Are you 100% sure that if a person takes his mark that person has no way to later on in their life to become saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because you desire Rev 2 to be an anti-OSAS message so you insert "warnings" and "if you reject Christ" into the intended message of how one goes about receiving crowns.

Good grief, chessman, even you are saying that only overcomers get the crown of life. The point being, even if you redefine the crown of life to be something other than eternal life (as you are doing), and somehow con-cote this doctrine of somehow being saved, but have none of the crowns spoken about in scripture, Revelation 2 is still a warning that you must overcome in order to get that crown.

Do you or don't you believe some people will wear crowns in Heaven?

Literally? No, that's a joke.

If no, why does the Bible talk about crowns?

They are figurative of achievement, or authority ('a crowning achievement').

They are obviously figurative because, if you finally see the light on non-OSAS through anything I've said, you better plan on losing a lot of weight before you prop yourself on my head as a crown.

The crowns are figurative, chessman.

 

[gr8grace3]

Wrong!

However I must continue to the end of my life, trusting in Christ and the Blood He shed on the cross as my hope of salvation.



JLB

That's awesome Brother.

I pray you will continue and trust that God will perfect it...

Please keep and maintain and nurture this confidence until the end, so that he will grant to you the crown of life.


Please consider doing a study on what God does to perfect, which means bring to maturity, your faith.

Maybe you could share a few scriptures with us about what a person goes through, in order for the good work of faith and patients to be perfected.


1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.
These things command and teach!

16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:1-2,11,16

Keep the confidence unto the end!

Test yourself, to see if you are in the faith.

Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you.


JLB

Your first Timothy verses are fitting for this debate. Some will depart from the faith and in a subtle way bring in evil. The only thing that will save us from this attack is a consistent intake of bible doctrine. We can save ourselves from this deceit. If Timothy consistently and daily took in doctrine, He will save himself and his congregation from the false doctrines of the deceiving demons and those who have departed from the faith.

And one thing that doctrine teaches us is that the doctrines of demons is for the most part counterfeiting(really close to the original) the light and is very subtle.


Did Jesus really say?...........
“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

and I give eternal life to them, and they will never(no not ever) perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

 

[JLB]

Your first Timothy verses are fitting for this debate. Some will depart from the faith and in a subtle way bring in evil. The only thing that will save us from this attack is a consistent intake of bible doctrine. We can save ourselves from this deceit. If Timothy consistently and daily took in doctrine, He will save himself and his congregation from the false doctrines of the deceiving demons and those who have departed from the faith.

And one thing that doctrine teaches us is that the doctrines of demons is for the most part counterfeiting(really close to the original) the light and is very subtle.


Did Jesus really say?...........
“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

and I give eternal life to them, and they will never(no not ever) perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Yes!

He also said - He who endures to the end will be saved.

He also said - Be faithful unto death and then you will receive the crown of life.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom" (Dan 7:21-22 NIV).

How is it possible that saints are defeated, and yet the Ancient of Days pronounces judgement in favor of them?

Here is a NT reference: "And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them" (Rev 11:7 LITV). They were overcome, and yet they were resurrected and went up to heaven:

"And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. . . And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they went up into the heaven in the cloud. . . " (Rev 11:11-12 LITV). The saints may die physically and be resurrected physically, but we have already dies to ourselves spiritually and have been joined to the body of Christ.

Christ died and is resurrected. He is the Living One, and we are in Him. "But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him" (Rom 6:8-9 LITV).

"I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf" (Gal 2:20 LITV).

 

[JLB]

How is it possible that saints are defeated, and yet the Ancient of Days pronounces judgement in favor of them?

Here is a NT reference: "And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them" (Rev 11:7 LITV). They were overcome, and yet they were resurrected and went up to heaven:

"And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. . . And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they went up into the heaven in the cloud. . . " (Rev 11:11-12 LITV). The saints may die physically and be resurrected physically, but we have already dies to ourselves spiritually and have been joined to the body of Christ.

Christ died and is resurrected. He is the Living One, and we are in Him. "But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him" (Rom 6:8-9 LITV).

"I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf" (Gal 2:20 LITV).

So you are the Apodtle Paul now.

People that are literally walking in the crucified life will do the works that Paul did and just as importantly will believe and understand the words that Paul wrote.

Walking in the life, of the fullness and stature of Jesus, whereby you are doing the works that He did... Is something that we as disciples are called to, but very few attain.

You have been given the right TO BECOME a son of God.

You have been called to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ.

JLB

 

[Gregg]

Scripture never says this: A saved person can be in Christ, and then [for any reason] no longer be in Christ. No examples of this have been demonstrated here while remaining true to the Scriptures, and to the nature of the salvation that we have in Christ.

If Christ is resurrected and dies no more, those that are in Him will never die.

Men are not given life in Christ only for a while, but those who have entered into Christ are given eternal life. The life that we have is eternal, not temporary to be decided upon in the future. Our eternal life is already just that - eternal; and that life that we now have in Christ will be publicly demonstrated in the future at Christ's Second Coming.

 

[Gregg]

Its ironic that the non-OSAS disciples say that a Christian can lose his salvation if he denies Christ one time after being saved.

But the non-OSAS disciples are unable to see that a person believes once upon Christ, and lives forever.

 

[gr8grace3]

So you are the Apodtle Paul now.

People that are literally walking in the crucified life will do the works that Paul did and just as importantly will believe and understand the words that Paul wrote.

Walking in the life, of the fullness and stature of Jesus, whereby you are doing the works that He did... Is something that we as disciples are called to, but very few attain.

You have been given the right TO BECOME a son of God.

You have been called to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ.

JLB

We are children of God~~The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, "are" the absolute status quo existence of being a child of God. Romans 8:16 NASB

We have the righteousness of God~~
having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.Philippians 1:11 NASB

All Pauls words through the Spirit.

We have been Given the right to decide if we want to act like a child of God.

We have been given the right to live in our righteous position in Christ. This where most Christians do not succeed. They are forever striving to make themselves righteous before God. And never live in their true position.

 

[reba]

Its ironic that the non-OSAS disciples say that a Christian can lose his salvation if he denies Christ one time after being saved.

But the non-OSAS disciples are unable to see that a person believes once upon Christ, and lives forever.

Gregg i dont have a horse in this race... I bounce from one side to the other.... the words too and fro come to mind... :neutral

Way back in the 50s if you met my uncle you would believe him to be a Christian. We can not truly judges a persons walk ,but i hope you understand what i am trying to say.... He knew the Word claimed Jesus as his saviour... On his death bed he told Dad i want no part of your God.get away with that blankety blank etc...

Stories like the this one are what keep me on the fence .. The OSAS would just say uncle mark never truly knew the Lord.The non-osas would say see i told ya..

 

[Eugene]

Gregg i dont have a horse in this race... I bounce from one side to the other.... the words too and fro come to mind... :neutral

Way back in the 50s if you met my uncle you would believe him to be a Christian. We can not truly judges a persons walk ,but i hope you understand what i am trying to say.... He knew the Word claimed Jesus as his saviour... On his death bed he told Dad i want no part of your God.get away with that blankety blank etc...

Stories like the this one are what keep me on the fence .. The OSAS would just say uncle mark never truly knew the Lord.The non-osas would say see i told ya..

Possibly because they didn't ever grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord. They must also believe what they confess instead of seeking excuses when the world has affected the very life of a saint weak in faith that has prayed, and prayed with no effect.

You might just be surprised one day to find that blessed old uncle in heaven supported by the very One he would curse in his time of hurt. 2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Do you think he ever once called upon the name of the Lord?
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Dear Sister reba, many never come to the faith of Job, as they are ever looking for prosperity, and constant deliverance and end up angry, and in sorrow just as your uncle, but it is the one abiding in Christ that has peace.
Job 2:10 What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[reba]

I agree Eugene... . 2 I trust the Lord's judgements to be righteous

 

[chessman]

The OSAS would just say uncle mark never truly knew the Lord.

Or, might his brain (a physical organ) have had a touch of Alzheimer's or another brain related disease? I've known some of the sweetest old God loving ladies you'e ever met get afflicted with that brain disease and you wouldn't believe what came out of their mouths. I know of only one, sure fire cure of that disease. An immortal body.

​

 

[JLB]

We are children of God~~The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, "are" the absolute status quo existence of being a child of God. Romans 8:16 NASB

We have the righteousness of God~~
having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.Philippians 1:11 NASB

All Pauls words through the Spirit.

We have been Given the right to decide if we want to act like a child of God.

We have been given the right to live in our righteous position in Christ. This where most Christians do not succeed. They are forever striving to make themselves righteous before God. And never live in their true position.

The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His.

Do not be deceived -

29 Once you're convinced that he is right and righteous, you'll recognize that all who practice righteousness are God's true children. 1 John 2:29

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
.29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29

Paul lived a lifestyle of practicing righteousness.

Paul lived a crucified life.

JLB