Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[chessman]

I believe they Got it right Brother.

Well then. If, like 8:9 says, it is the Spirit of God living in a saved person, and like verse 6 says; the mindset of The Spirit is life and peace for that saved person then it sounds like God has His mind set on life and peace for the saved person to me.

Romans 8:9 (LEB) ... the Spirit of God lives in you.

Romans 8:6 (LEB) ... the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, ​

 

[JLB]

Friend, I would really appreciate your thoughts on this. Can an unsaved man live or walk according to the Spirit.

This was written to the Church at Rome.

Not unbelievers.

 

[gr8grace3]

Well then. If, like 8:9 says, it is the Spirit of God living in a saved person, and like verse 6 says; the mindset of The Spirit is life and peace for that saved person then it sounds like God has His mind set on life and peace for the saved person to me.

Romans 8:9 (LEB) ... the Spirit of God lives in you.

Romans 8:6 (LEB) ... the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, ​

Yep, And I believe that is why this is such an important doctrine for the believer. And one dear to my heart. If the believer or unbeliever tries to accomplish this and does not realize that it IS accomplished through Jesus Christ. It is a worthless life of works for the deceived believer and a vain attempt by the unbeliever. The sad truth is I believe we have unbelievers on this very forum that are making the attempt, and have never went to the Gospel for their salvation.

 

[JLB]

yes

Was he saved by Christ?

 

[gr8grace3]

This was written to the Church at Rome.

Not unbelievers.

Galatians 5:25 NASB~~If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:6 NASB~~For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 John 4:13 NASB~~By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Outside of the Church of Rome.

Can a unsaved man walk or live in the Spirit?

 

[gr8grace3]

Was he saved by Christ?

Yes, they looked forward to the Cross and we look back to the Cross. Its the only way.

 

[JLB]

Galatians 5:25 NASB~~If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:6 NASB~~For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

1 John 4:13 NASB~~By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Outside of the Church of Rome.

Can a unsaved man walk or live in the Spirit?

Paul wrote the letter to the Church at Rome, ie: believers, saved people.

Paul did not warn unsaved people of these things:

• Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
• .For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

To unsaved people we say, repent and believe the Gospel, or you will perish.


1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:1-5


...the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

... us in this verse is a reference to saved people!

Likewise those is also a reference to saved people.


Those is represented by two groups, saved people who chose to walk after the flesh, and saved people who choose to walk after the Spirit.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Paul wrote the letter to the Church at Rome, ie: believers, saved people.

Paul did not warn unsaved people of these things:

• Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
• .For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

To unsaved people we say, repent and believe the Gospel, or you will perish.


1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:1-5


...the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

... us in this verse is a reference to saved people!

Likewise those is also a reference to saved people.


Those is represented by two groups, saved people who chose to walk after the flesh, and saved people who choose to walk after the Spirit.


JLB

I guess I am not following you friend. No, a person who is not saved can't walk or live in the Spirit. That is MHO from the doctrine in my soul.

From the doctrine in your soul, do you believe a unsaved person can walk or live in the Spirit?

No trap set, Just curious of what you believe.

 

[JLB]

I guess I am not following you friend. No, a person who is not saved can't walk or live in the Spirit. That is MHO from the doctrine in my soul.

From the doctrine in your soul, do you believe a unsaved person can walk or live in the Spirit?

No trap set, Just curious of what you believe.

I'm not the judge of who is saved or unsaved, or what a saved person can or can not do.

Why bother with opinions?

...the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

In these verses from Romans 8, Paul is addressing those who are saved.

Do you believe this to be true?

Or, do you believe Paul to be encouraging unsaved people to walk in the Spirit?

That is the question.

Now, if you were to ask me that question, then my answer would be, no.

Paul is not encouraging unsaved people to walk in the Spirit.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

I'm not the judge of who is saved or unsaved, or what a saved person can or can not do.

Why bother with opinions?

...the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

In these verses from Romans 8, Paul is addressing those who are saved.

Do you believe this to be true?

Or, do you believe Paul to be encouraging unsaved people to walk in the Spirit?

That is the question.

Now, if you were to ask me that question, then my answer would be, no.

Paul is not encouraging unsaved people to walk in the Spirit.



JLB

We bother with opinions to measure a doctrine that is being preached by men. This gives us a pretty good insight to whether we believe or discard what is being preached.

Thank you for your answer friend.

 

[JLB]

We bother with opinions to measure a doctrine that is being preached by men. This gives us a pretty good insight to whether we believe or discard what is being preached.

Thank you for your answer friend.

Do you believe Paul to be encouraging unsaved people to walk in the Spirit?


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Do you believe Paul to be encouraging unsaved people to walk in the Spirit?


JLB

No. Paul knew full well that an unsaved person can't walk in the Spirit.

At this Moment JLB, do you consider yourself saved? Or do you reach it at death?

 

[JLB]

No. Paul knew full well that an unsaved person can't walk in the Spirit.

At this Moment JLB, do you consider yourself saved? Or do you reach it at death?

I was saved by grace, through faith.

I am saved as I continue in my faith in Christ.

However, as long as I have faith in Christ, then I am hoping for the reality of Salvation which will include the redemption of my body.

This will take place at His Coming, when He gathers His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

At that time we will no longer have faith for Salvation, but will see the reality of salvation.

Continuing our discussion from Romans 8:


22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

We were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope, it is the tangible reality of what you have been hoping for.

That why Paul goes on to say... 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


Peter says it this way -

whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9


The beautiful Mystery of Salvation: we WERE SAVED in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope:

For why does one hope for what he sees.

Let's look at the analogy Paul uses here in Romans 8:22 -

For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now...

A Husband and wife wanting to start a family...

First the happy news comes.... Honey I missed my period!

Then comes the morning sickness... Oh the joy we are pregnant!

Mama starts showing and the news spreads... We are having a baby!

Mama's getting bigger and Dad feels the baby kick... Oh my we are parents!!!

Six weeks from the due date.... Mama is ready for this to be over!!

At this point this couple has the hope of having a baby....

They haven't actually seen there baby, they know it's growing inside but they haven't yet experienced the reality of their baby.

...For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Then the mom who is 7 1/2 months pregnant, decides to start smoking crack.

She starts out by smoking just a few times a day, then as she struggles to satisfy herself she is smoking all day long.

By the time the baby is ready to be born, Mom can't quit and the baby is having serious complications.

The day of delivery comes, and the baby is born dead with no real formation of the lungs.

There was a living baby inside the Mom, until....


JLB

 

[jonahmano]

I was saved by grace, through faith.

I am saved as I continue in my faith in Christ.

However, as long as I have faith in Christ, then I am hoping for the reality of Salvation which will include the redemption of my body.

This will take place at His Coming, when He gathers His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

At that time we will no longer have faith for Salvation, but will see the reality of salvation.

Continuing our discussion from Romans 8:


22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

We were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope, it is the tangible reality of what you have been hoping for.

That why Paul goes on to say... 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


Peter says it this way -

whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9


The beautiful Mystery of Salvation: we WERE SAVED in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope:

For why does one hope for what he sees.

Let's look at the analogy Paul uses here in Romans 8:22 -

For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now...

A Husband and wife wanting to start a family...

First the happy news comes.... Honey I missed my period!

Then comes the morning sickness... Oh the joy we are pregnant!

Mama starts showing and the news spreads... We are having a baby!

Mama's getting bigger and Dad feels the baby kick... Oh my we are parents!!!

Six weeks from the due date.... Mama is ready for this to be over!!

At this point this couple has the hope of having a baby....

They haven't actually seen there baby, they know it's growing inside but they haven't yet experienced the reality of their baby.

...For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

Then the mom who is 7 1/2 months pregnant, decides to start smoking crack.

She starts out by smoking just a few times a day, then as she struggles to satisfy herself she is smoking all day long.

By the time the baby is ready to be born, Mom can't quit and the baby is having serious complications.

The day of delivery comes, and the baby is born dead with no real formation of the lungs.

There was a living baby inside the Mom, until....


JLB

Nicely put and want to add a bit more to this. Bible reading, prayer and fellowship and walking in the Spirit is all inclusive of our salvation and not exclusive as grace-preachers preach but the difference is we don't do all this to be saved but we do all these because we are saved.

 

[JLB]

Nicely put and want to add a bit more to this. Bible reading, prayer and fellowship and walking in the Spirit is all inclusive of our salvation and not exclusive as grace-preachers preach but the difference is we don't do all this to be saved but we do all these because we are saved.

The things you listed above and much more...

This is what Paul called exercising yourself TOWARD godliness!

You are putting forth effort to build yourself up on your most holy faith.

Feeding your inner man with the written word of God, in an effort to DO WHAT IS WRITTEN!

Meditating on God's word... setting your mind on things above!

Fasting, and spending time alone with Him to seek Him, to hear His Voice and obey what He says.

I have found when I set myself apart to Him, to be consecrated and give myself over to these things, then I become more sensitive to His leading.

It all starts with... turning off the T.V. or other sights and sounds that distract us or impart an ungodly image upon our mind, through our eye gate or ear gate.

7 But reject profane and old wives' fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 1 Timothy 4:7-8



JLB

 

[CORE]

Your turn:

Explain how people hoping in Christ, sanctified by the blood of Christ, can't trample on the blood of Christ and lose the only sacrifice for sin that exists as punishment for doing that, even though the scriptures plainly say they can and what will happen if they do:

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longerremains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIREWHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Mosesdies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishmentdo you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded asunclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit ofgrace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." " (Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

If we move ahead several verses to verse 39, Paul says "but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:39 NASB)

He's clearly making a distinction between those who have faith and the apostates who don't. How can you be saved if you don't have faith, for we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift from God.

In this chapter, Paul is talking about our confidence and how we shouldn't throw it away...that we have a need for endurance and have that God given faith not to shrink back. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

In the next Chapter, Chapter 11, he goes on given us examples of the faithful past and how they endured.

Then in Chapter 12, he talks about discipline and endurance...that it is for discipline that we endure.

Hebrews 12:7-8 NASB
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

I really believe this helps to tie these chapters together.

I believe it is these illegitimate children who become so filled with contempt that they could actually trample underfoot the Son of God and call his blood unclean. (which really is to imply that Christ was a sinner and that his sacrifice was blemished)

If we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the perseving of our souls as Paul states in Hebrews 10:39, how can we ever be guilty of such blasphemy?

Now...I don't think it's important to argue over this. I do not feel it is necessary for us to tell people OSAS or not. What's important is that we agree on encouraging each other to persevere till the end, to endure discipline, to confess our sins and repent...to be obedient. If we are living this way with a sincere heart, then we can have full assurance right now that we are of God.

It's truly a blessing to live in obedience not because we fear going to hell or losing our salvation, but because we appreciate what God has done for us.

It's amazing what people will do to make this not mean what it so plainly says.

I'm not too familiar with what others may say, but I did hear one thing with reagard to Hebrews 10:29...

Hebrews 10:29
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
.
Some believe that the word sanctified is referring to "the Son of God," in that he was separated unto God, not the apostate.
John 17:19:
For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. (NASB)

Could that not be a possibility?

 

[CORE]

Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him!

I wanted to have a positive post with a scripture that both sides can agree on, in light of Chessman's effort and work to compile a comprehensive list.

Thank you Chessman.

Thanks, this thread has actually been very edifying for me, even in ways not related to the thread. It's a joy to study these passages and the edification that comes from them as we delve into our studies.

I think the important thing in all of this is that we agree that we are to encourage each other to persevere in obedience till the end...

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Core said -

If we move ahead several verses to verse 39, Paul says "but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:39 NASB)

but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction

That's great for Paul and those with him that penned the letter to the Hebrews, for he had confidence and kept the faith unto the end.

But what about the rest of us who would read these words down through time until now, who are walking out their own salvation.

The writers of the New Testament both encourage and warn us of many things.

Each one of us has to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

Each of us has a choice whether to heed or ignore what these first Century Apostles have written to us.

The specific phrase "shrink back" is a reference to returning to the law of Moses under the threat of persecution and death, by those of the religion of Judaism.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Thanks, this thread has actually been very edifying for me, even in ways not related to the thread. It's a joy to study these passages and the edification that comes from them as we delve into our studies.

I think the important thing in all of this is that we agree that we are to encourage each other to persevere in obedience till the end...

Thanks.

That is a great word, and reminder to us all!


Thanks Brother!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we move ahead several verses to verse 39, Paul says "but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:39 NASB)

If Paul means people who have faith do not shrink back to destruction, why is he warning people who have faith not to shrink back from that faith?

And notice, according to this passage that it is indeed required that you have faith to the very end to preserve your soul.

He's clearly making a distinction between those who have faith and the apostates who don't.

But he's speaking these warnings to believers, not apostates. He's warning them to not become apostate.

How can you be saved if you don't have faith, for we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift from God.

And I ask, how can you be saved if you don't continue to have that faith? But as it is, we see the author of Hebrews saying it is those who have faith and don't shrink back in unbelief that preserve their souls. A very clear refutation of the particular OSAS doctrine that says you don't have to continue to believe to be saved.

In this chapter, Paul is talking about our confidence and how we shouldn't throw it away...that we have a need for endurance and have that God given faith not to shrink back. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

Exactly. These people already have this confidence. He's not speaking to apostates.

In the next Chapter, Chapter 11, he goes on given us examples of the faithful past and how they endured.

Yes. Chapter 11 shows us that we must endure in the same faith to the end that we had in the beginning in order to secure in the future what that faith secures. This is very, very clear. In light of these scriptures, I don't know how someone can say you don't have to persevere in your faith in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

Then in Chapter 12, he talks about discipline and endurance...that it is for discipline that we endure.

Hebrews 12:7-8 NASB
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Which makes it all the more clear that the author is speaking to believers, not apostates. He's warning legitimate believers, who he reminds of all the suffering they've endured (Hebrews 10:32-34 NASB), to stay the course and not shrink back to destruction.

I really believe this helps to tie these chapters together.

I believe it is these illegitimate children who become so filled with contempt that they could actually trample underfoot the Son of God and call his blood unclean. (which really is to imply that Christ was a sinner and that his sacrifice was blemished)

These passage are so thoroughly filled with assurances of the faith they have had, and now have, that I don't see how it can be concluded that somehow the warnings are to apostates. That suggestion completely defies the passage.

If we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the perseving of our souls as Paul states in Hebrews 10:39, how can we ever be guilty of such blasphemy?

Then why the warnings to these people who can't blaspheme the Spirit of grace? And I've already shown the author is not talking to apostates, but to suffering, saved, legitimate children of God.

Now...I don't think it's important to argue over this. I do not feel it is necessary for us to tell people OSAS or not. What's important is that we agree on encouraging each other to persevere till the end, to endure discipline, to confess our sins and repent...to be obedient. If we are living this way with a sincere heart, then we can have full assurance right now that we are of God.

That is exactly what non-OSAS is all about--knowing you are truly saved because you have faith, now, and that faith is not dead, but able to save because it finds expression in love for others as James says the faith that can save must do.

Hebrews 10:29
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
.
Some believe that the word sanctified is referring to "the Son of God," in that he was separated unto God, not the apostate.
John 17:19:
For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. (NASB)

Could that not be a possibility?

I don't see how Jesus is like the rest of us that he needed to be set apart through blood sacrifice to God. There are so many references in Hebrews to these believers being sanctified, not apostate, that even suggesting vs. 29 is talking about Jesus himself being the one that was sanctified doesn't change the fact that these Hebrews are indeed very much sanctified as well, and being warned to not shrink back from that sanctification through unbelief.