Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[JLB]

Ah, I see you're comfortable misrepresenting the point I made. (1 Tim 4:2). I said the exact opposite thing.

Just as Jesus can contrast a saved person's actions and destiny with that of an unsaved person's using the phrase "deny Him" in the same breath, so can Paul. In fact many people, me included, and many Early Church Fathers included, believe Paul was quoting Jesus' words in Matt 10:33 that had been set to a poetic hymn in the form of a Creed. That's why Paul says "2 Timothy 2:11 "The saying is trustworthy:"

For
if we died with him, we will also live with him; (this is a line of lyric poetry, line 1)
if we endure, we will also reign with him; (line 2)
if we deny him, he also will deny us; (line 3)
if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful (line 4)

—he cannot deny himself.

There is a great amount of evidence this is literally an early Christian Hymn and Creed based on Jesus' words in Matt 10:33

That's why it is set apart with indentations and in poetic lines which seem obvious to translation scholars. But more evidenced by the way Paul introduces it as a "trustworthy say". A phrase he uses five times (see attachment)

If true, it also seems obvious that Jesus was contrasting the saved with the unsaved as He spoke to the mixed crowds in Matt 10.

You might think this through the next time you misrepresent my opinion that Paul meant an unsaved person when he said "if we deny Him" in 2 Tim 2, right in the middle of a Gospel Hymn based on Jesus' words in Matt 10:33

View attachment 4765

Chessman,

You can call it a creed or hymn or poem.

It's scripture!

What do you not understand about these plain and irrefutable words?

if we deny him, he also will deny us;

This is a statement made to a saved person?

WE is a reference to someone who had already been saved!

An unsaved person would not be included in a phrase written by the Apostle Paul, by saying WE!

This is EXACTLY what Jesus said in plain words, as well as taught in the parable of the SOWER!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Consider 1 Jn 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

From this we can see that John in no way was suggesting that born again people can't help but to always be born again. This is just another place in scripture where we see the 'if' of salvation. We will continue to be saved IF we continue in that which we heard from the beginning. The condition for abiding in the Son is holding onto that which you heard in the beginning, not casting it off, rejecting it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Angels don't need to be born again if they are sons of God, sir!

You've completely missed my point. Adam was created, and called a son of God in Luke 3:38. All angels were created, per Ezek 28:15. Yet, none of them were said to be "born again". Are you familiar with the phrases "born again", "regeneration", "new creature"??

We are born again, which is a reference to being "born of God", ie; sons of God.

In fact, what has been REgenerated is our dead human spirit.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

This refers to believers. Jn 1:12 tells us that believers receive the right to become the children of God.

The point that I am making is this: angelic beings that are sons of God, or human beings that are sons of God, are in fact SONS OF GOD.

Adam was declared to be the son of God.

Adam was created directly by God.

The angels (sons of God) that sinned, were cast down to hell.

These were not "tares", but sons of God, angels who sinned.

You're missing the point entirely.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's the verses:

23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him,saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began toplead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on yourfellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger,handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB)

Where do you find that forgiveness can be given up? This passage is about NOT being forgiven.

Because salvation is having your sins forgiven.

It's a lot more than that. As I explained.

And, as we see above, you can lose that forgiveness through careless neglect, or outright contempt for that forgiveness. If a person tramples on the blood of Christ through which they are forgiven, and lose that forgiveness as a result, there is no sacrifice for sin remaining for that person (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

The context for that verse is that the Hebrew believers were turning back to sacrifices, and was condemned by the writer in chapter 6. His point in 10:26 is that because of the sacrifice of Christ, there is no more sacrifice for sin. Christ died for all sins.

 

[FreeGrace]

24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

From this we can see that John in no way was suggesting that born again people can't help but to always be born again.

Actually, John wasn't suggesting anything here. He was quoting Jesus. And Jesus was speaking of fellowship, not being in a saved state. He had already told them that they were "already clean, although not all of you", referring to Judas. Jn 13:10,11.

This is just another place in scripture where we see the 'if' of salvation.

There is no "if" in salvation. God always keeps His promise. The "if" in Scripture refers to our being faithful and obedient.

We will continue to be saved IF we continue in that which we heard from the beginning. The condition for abiding in the Son is holding onto that which you heard in the beginning, not casting it off, rejecting it.

What are you trusting in for salvation ultimately? It seems your faith is really in your own efforts. If I'm wrong, please explain how so, given what you've said here. Thanks.

If one has to continue in that whcih we heard from the beginning, it means that salvation is based on having to continue. That depends on you. My faith is in Christ who died for my sins. Not myself.

 

[chessman]

What you have to do is prove the 'we' in 'if we deny Him' somehow doesn't include Paul and the church.

Actually, no I don't. There are two points (one within and one based on Jesus in Matt 10:33) that make my point obvious:

1. Paul's not saying one thing in verse 12 about himself that conflicts with verse 11 if it's also about himself. He's also not conflicting with what Jesus said.

2. Matthew 10:32-33 “Therefore everyone (Nominative) who acknowledges me before people, I also will acknowledge him (personal) before my Father who is in heaven.

Goes with:

For if we died with him, we will also live with him;

But whoever denies me before people, I also will deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

Goes with:

if we deny him, he also will deny us;

If Paul is reflecting Jesus' Gospel as his "Trustworthy Saying", then he obviously is talking about how people (including him and Timothy) came to the point he just got through describing in verse 11 (namely alive in Him).

 

[chessman]

You can call it a creed or hymn or poem.

It's scripture!

yes it's Scripture. And guess what? It was Scripture spoken by Jesus, prior to Paul using it. Which is why Paul referred to it as a "trustworthy saying". The point is important that it's lyrical (obviously) but that it's based on a teaching of Scripture from Jesus.

WE is a reference to someone who had already been saved!

That's an assumption on your part with no real evidence to back it up.

 

[chessman]

People who can see.......no longer need reproof.

But that's the point. They got their reproof applied.

Revelation 3:17-18 Because you are... ... blind...
They were blind!

...eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see.

Where does their eye salve come from if not through the discipline they received?

 

[chessman]

An unsaved person would not be included in a phrase written by the Apostle Paul, by saying WE!

JLB

It would if he was remembering how it was that he and Timothy obtained their salvation. We're all un-saved till we are saved. We are all saved by The same Gospel which he was teaching Timothy to remember and re-teach so others like them could be saved also:

2 Timothy 2:8, 10 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David according to my gospel, ...

Because of this, ...

in order that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. ...

 

[JLB]

yes it's Scripture. And guess what? It was Scripture spoken by Jesus, prior to Paul using it. Which is why Paul referred to it as a "trustworthy saying". The point is important that it's lyrical (obviously) but that it's based on a teaching of Scripture from Jesus.




That's an assumption on your part with no real evidence to back it up.

The evidence is the scripture and what the scripture teaches.

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.
[ We is a reference to a saved person who has died with Christ and because that person died with Christ, they will live with Christ]

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:11-12 NKJV
[ We continues to be a reference to a saved person who in enduring, will also reign with Christ]

Unless Chessman is teaching this Forum that unsaved people will reign with Christ, then we is a reference to saved people!

If we [saved people] deny Him, then He will deny us [saved people].




JLB

 

[JLB]

It would if he was remembering how it was that he and Timothy obtained their salvation. We're all un-saved till we are saved. We are all saved by The same Gospel which he was teaching Timothy to remember and re-teach so others like them could be saved also:

2 Timothy 2:8, 10 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David according to my gospel, ...

Because of this, ...

in order that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. ...

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12 NKJV
[ We continues to be a reference to a saved person who in enduring, will also reign with Christ]

Unless Chessman is teaching this Forum that unsaved people will reign with Christ, then we is a reference to saved people!


JLB

 

[chessman]

The evidence is the scripture and what the scripture teaches.

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.
[ We is a reference to a saved person who has died with Christ and because that person died with Christ, they will live with Christ]

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:11-12 NKJV
[ We continues to be a reference to a saved person who in enduring, will also reign with Christ]

Unless Chessman is teaching this Forum that unsaved people will reign with Christ, then we is a reference to saved people!

If we [saved people] deny Him, then He will deny us [saved people].

JLB

Take your assumption to it's logical conclusion then:
2 Timothy 2:13 if we [same saved people] are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself.

JLB is teaching this forum that unfaithful people are not denied.

 

[JLB]

Take your assumption to it's logical conclusion then:
2 Timothy 2:13 if we [same saved people] are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself.

JLB is teaching this forum that unfaithful people are not denied.

I did not say this, again you misrepresent what I said.

If we deny Him, He will deny us..

We in this verse is a saved person.

An unsaved doesn't need to do anything, they are already doomed.


Paul is writing a letter to Timothy, a saved disciple of Paul's.

You have been shown the truth of what the scriptures clearly teach.

It goes against all sound judgement to think that Paul is referring to unsaved people in this verse.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

What would an unsaved person endure, that would cause them to reign with Christ?


You seem to have taken "grasping at straws" to a whole new level, which would be called "grasping at the wind".


JLB

 

[DRS81]

chessman & JLB 2 Tim 2:11-13 is written in poetry form. This scripture is written in figurative language and is not meant to be in a literal sense. When a writer writes in song or poem form, it is used metaphorically. Isaiah wrote like this too. It's quite beautiful if you understand the meaning behind the poem. If we died with him, we will endure and suffer. If we disown him we were never born again. If we are faithless, he remains faithful. Being faithless is not the same as disowning. There are those who are religious christians, and then there are those who are truly born again. It's really that simple.

V11 - BELIEVERS
V12 - BELIEVERS / NON BELIEVERS
V13 - BELIEVERS

2 Tim 2:11-13
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/2tim-lbw.htm
Verse 11 Timothy would have known these words. They were from a Christian song or poem. Paul says that the message of these words is true. In this part of the song or poem, ‘we’ means the Christians and ‘him’ means Christ. There are four lines. Each one shows the actions of Christians and the result or the reaction of Christ.

1. If we have died with him, we shall also live with him (verse 11)
2. If we do not give up, we will also govern with him (verse 12)
3. If we refuse him, he will also refuse us (verse 12)
4. If we do not believe, he will remain true. He cannot deny who he is (verse 13)

Death with Christ will result in life with him. Death with Christ is death to *sin even as Christ died to *sin. It is in the death of Christ that Christians have died with him. The death of Christ has freed them from *sin. As they believe in Christ, it is as if God has put their old life into his death. They receive a new life now. Christians should consider that they are dead to *sin. And they should consider that they are alive to God. The *Lord has also promised them that as Christ rose from the dead so they will rise. They will live with Christ and never die again.

Verse 12 The life of the Christians is not an easy one. They may have to suffer many things. There will always be problems that tempt them to give up. But they must remain loyal to Christ. Those who do remain loyal to Christ will rule with him. This looks forward beyond this present life to the life which is to come. Then those who have not given up will join with Christ as he rules as the king of heaven. There are those who did once claim to be Christians but then say that they are not. Now they refuse to admit that Jesus is the Christ. They did not really believe in the *Lord Jesus and they do not know him. They have turned away from him. The day will come when they will have to stand before God. Then Christ will deny them. He will say that He does not know them. They will not live with him in that day.

Verse 13 There are those who did believe in the *Lord Jesus but have turned away from him. Some Christians fail to trust him. But he will keep his promises to them. He will never turn away from them. He is the *Lord who does not change. He will do what he has promised to do. He is always true to his own nature. He is God. For those who do not trust in the *Lord Jesus at all, this is a serious warning. What God has said about the results of their *sins will happen. But some have believed but are weak. They may fail but this should encourage them. They may not always be true to him but he will always be true to them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, John wasn't suggesting anything here. He was quoting Jesus. And Jesus was speaking of fellowship, not being in a saved state.

It's easy to see that 'abiding' is indeed a matter of salvation:

6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." (John 15:6 NASB)

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)"

There is no "if" in salvation. God always keeps His promise. The "if" in Scripture refers to our being faithful and obedient.

Salvation is contingent on whether or not you believe in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins. IOW, if you believe in the Son, you will be saved. But for some reason, in OSAS, if we have to continue to believe to be saved 'believing' is suddenly a damnable work of the flesh.

No where in Paul's teaching about grace/works did he say believing, or continuing to believe is included in the works of the law that can not justify. He said believing is the very thing that DOES justify! He even uses Abraham and his continued, steadfast believing as the example (Romans 4:19-20 NASB).

How did the need for Abraham's steadfast believing get on the side of the works of the law that can not justify?

What are you trusting in for salvation ultimately? It seems your faith is really in your own efforts. If I'm wrong, please explain how so, given what you've said here. Thanks.

I'm trusting in the blood of Christ to be the payment for my sins so I can be justly forgiven my sins. If that's how we all get saved in the first place how is continuing to do that somehow now a work that can not justify? Paul said believing is the very thing that DOES justify. He did not say believing is a damnable work of my flesh that can not justify.

If one has to continue in that whcih we heard from the beginning, it means that salvation is based on having to continue. That depends on you. My faith is in Christ who died for my sins. Not myself.

Please explain how believing in what I heard in the beginning can justify, but continuing to believe in what I heard from the beginning doesn't justify.

Or, maybe what needs to be explained is if I fulfill the requirement to believe in the beginning I am justified by that believing because it is not a work of the flesh, but if I fulfill the requirement to continue to believe, like Abraham did, I am now condemned by that believing because it is now a work of the flesh.

My faith is in Christ who died for my sins. Not myself.

So, you're saying that when I first believe, my faith is in Christ who died for my sins, but continuing to have faith in Christ is now not having faith in Christ? How does that work?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/2tim-lbw.htm.
[...]
There are those who did once claim to be Christians but then say that they are not. Now they refuse to admit that Jesus is the Christ. They did not really believe in the *Lord Jesus and they do not know him. They have turned away from him. The day will come when they will have to stand before God. Then Christ will deny them. He will say that He does not know them.

This is the common circular reasoning of the OSAS argument. It's saying the answer to what is in debate is that only unsaved people can deny Christ and not be saved. But that's what we're debating, whether saved people can/ can not deny Christ and lose salvation'

You can't use 'saved people are saved and, therefore, can't deny Christ and lose their salvation' as the answer to whether saved people can deny Christ and lose their salvation, the topic of debate. That's called circular reasoning. You have to show us that saved people can not deny Christ. Not just restate the topic in debate--'saved people can not deny Christ and lose their salvation'.

This is the point I was trying to make in the beginning. OSAS sees salvation as meaning 'permanently and forever saved, no matter what'. So, every time OSAS sees the question of whether saved people can be lost it instantly says, "no, because salvation is permanent and forever, no matter what'. But that is the very thing that is in debate, whether or not salvation is permanent and forever, no matter what!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Take your assumption to it's logical conclusion then:
2 Timothy 2:13 if we [same saved people] are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself.

JLB is teaching this forum that unfaithful people are not denied.

You apparently don't know what the difference between being unfaithful and denying Christ is. We know there is a difference because the text says they each have a different outcome:

12 ...If we deny Him, He also will deny us

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful

Denying Christ results in being denied. While being faithless results in him continuing to be faithful to us. So you can see it's impossible, logically, that denying Christ and being faithless are the same thing.

Faithless--failing to trust Christ in matters of daily obedience, but clinging to Christ's forgiveness for that weakness, nonetheless. Christ has a continuing obligation to be faithful to the person who is clinging to his forgiveness to cover their faithless failures and weaknesses.

In denial--denying one's relationship with Christ altogether. Christ has no obligation to be faithful to the person--saved, or unsaved--who does this.

What OSAS has to do is get out of this circular reasoning rut and prove that saved people can't deny Christ, not simply say that they can't deny Christ because they are saved. I've shown the scriptures that show us it is possible for saved people to deny Christ...and what will happen if they do.

 

[JLB]

DRS81 said -

If we disown him we were never born again.

V12 - BELIEVERS / NON BELIEVERS

V. 12 - BELIEVERS WHO STOP BELIEVING, HAVE NOW BECOME NON BELIEVERS.

If one has the ability to disown, it is because they first owned that which they now disown!



There are two different scenarios in the teaching's of Jesus concerning His own people and the world.


There are tares that were planted by the evil one, which comes from a seed that is planted by the evil one.
These will never be wheat, as a "bad seed" can NEVER produce "good fruit".

Then there are the "good seeds" that were planted by Jesus Christ, that never produce fruit.

These "good seeds" were planted in four types of situations that represent the condition of peoples heart.


What the OSAS doctrines try's to teach, is that the good seed of Jesus Christ, was never really "good seed" if it doesn't produce "fruit".

What the OSAS people do is mix together these two ideas, of tares, which were produced from a "bad seed", and good seeds planted in bad ground!


The end result is the same for both, however, one situation involves bad seed, and the other involves bad ground!


In order to see this truth, you must first rightly divide what Jesus has taught.



JLB

 

[chessman]

You apparently don't know what the difference between being unfaithful and denying Christ is. We know there is a difference because the text says they each have a different outcome:

You apparently learned logic from the slips of paper inside a fortune cookie.

First you're right "unfaithful" doesn't mean "denying". But second, you fail to take that logical principle/premise to it's logical conclusion. (Except when it suits you of course)

"Denying" doesn't mean "de-saved" either:

Matthew 26:35 Peter said to him, “Even if it is necessary for me to die with you, I will never deny you!” And all the disciples said the same thing. ...
​

Yet they all "denied" Him later but were not de-saved as a result of their denial. Jesus remained faithful to them, however. It's His nature. If Jesus is in a Christian (and He is), then for Jesus to be unfaithful to that person can be poetically compared to Him being unfaithful to Himself.

You are the one that used 2 Tim 2's "deny Him" as if it was a de-salvation synonym. Same as you do "spew you out", "fall away", etc.

I asked you once for a complete list of all these phrases that you think are synonyms for "de-salvation". You didn't answer. And you have yet to produce a text that describes someone that is saved being literally de-saved or unsaved. Because there aren't any. Yet, You posted 2 Tim 2:12 as if it met that criteria. It doesn't, for the very reason you mention above. "Denying" does not mean "de-saved". Being inconsistent is a sign of error.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's easy to see that 'abiding' is indeed a matter of salvation:

6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." (John 15:6 NASB)

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)"

It is an assumption to think that "fire" and "burned" refers to the "eternal fire" as found in Jude 7. In the context, Jesus was using an analogy from agriculture, and when branches stop producing, they are discarded as unusable. Jn 15:6 has nothing to do with salvation or loss of salvation.

Re: 1 Jn 2:24, what is the subject of chapter 1? That is the context for his entire epistle.

Salvation is contingent on whether or not you believe in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins. IOW,

if you believe in the Son, you will be saved. But for some reason, in OSAS, if we have to continue to believe to be saved 'believing' is suddenly a damnable work of the flesh.

I fully accept OSAS. Or better stated, once a child of God, always a child of God.

No where in Paul's teaching about grace/works did he say believing, or continuing to believe is included in the works of the law that can not justify. He said believing is the very thing that DOES justify! He even uses Abraham and his continued, steadfast believing as the example (Romans 4:19-20 NASB).

Not sure why you think I don't believe in OSAS.

How did the need for Abraham's steadfast believing get on the side of the works of the law that can not justify?

Huh?

I'm trusting in the blood of Christ to be the payment for my sins so I can be justly forgiven my sins. If that's how we all get saved in the first place how is continuing to do that somehow now a work that can not justify? Paul said believing is the very thing that DOES justify. He did not say believing is a damnable work of my flesh that can not justify.

I fully agree.

Please explain how believing in what I heard in the beginning can justify, but continuing to believe in what I heard from the beginning doesn't justify.

Huh?

Or, maybe what needs to be explained is if I fulfill the requirement to believe in the beginning I am justified by that believing because it is not a work of the flesh, but if I fulfill the requirement to continue to believe, like Abraham did, I am now condemned by that believing because it is now a work of the flesh.

Ditto.

So, you're saying that when I first believe, my faith is in Christ who died for my sins, but continuing to have faith in Christ is now not having faith in Christ? How does that work?

It doesn't work. Obviously.