Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

The only people who are in Christ are those whom God has chosen to be, and the only people who remain in Christ are those God has chosen to keep. They are the saved.

Predetermined salvation is the most meaningless gospel I have ever heard.

Have you ever tried to share such a meaningless gospel with unbelievers looking for the hope of rescue from the slavery and damnation of sin they know they are under? It's hardly 'good news' to tell them they've either been pre-selected for salvation, or they haven't, and there's nothing they can do about it.

It's a gospel that says you will be saved if you are lucky enough to be one of the few chosen to have salvation, instead of what the gospel really says, that you will be among the chosen few if you respond to the call of God through the Holy Spirit to have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Danus]

Predetermined salvation is the most meaningless gospel I have ever heard.

Have you ever tried to share such a meaningless gospel with unbelievers looking for the hope of rescue from the damnation of sin they know they are under? It's hardly 'good news' to tell them you've either been pre-selected for salvation, or you haven't, and there's nothing you can do about it.

It's a gospel that says you will be saved if you are lucky enough to be one of the few chosen to have salvation, instead of what the gospel really is, that you will be among the chosen few if you respond to the call to have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Yes I share it with unbelievers. I share it all the time with them.

 

[Danus]

Lets not forget something here. the unsaved DO NOT have a desire to be saved. They want NOTHING to do with God. So this whole notion of loosing salvation is self-defeating, and points to a weak faith, and a God who does nothing.

 

[JLB]

Pretty close. I'd say there is no "becoming" unsaved.

The beginning of John 15 seems to speak of those who are cut away as being in Christ, 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit. However, notice the "cutter"...who is the cutter of the branches? Does the branch cut it's own self away? No, it says that GOD Himself is the one who dose the cutting away.

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Does the branch cut or prune itself? That's the key to this verse. While it may seem to suggest that the individual can remain or be cut away, that's not what it says. When Jesus says remain in me He is speaking to those who will not be cut away.

Jesus is not giving an ultimatum here. He's not giving anyone a "choice" to remain or not remain. Notice verse 16, 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

The only people who are in Christ are those whom God has chosen to be, and the only people who remain in Christ are those God has chosen to keep. They are the saved.

2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes...

4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.


These words of remain in Me, and I in you are spoken to saved and chosen ones who are in Christ, and Christ is in them.

If these saved ones who are chosen by Him and are in Him, do not REMAIN in Him, then they will wither and not have the ability to produce fruit, and will be gathered up and cast into the fire.

Remaining is not automatic.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lets not forget something here. the unsaved DO NOT have a desire to be saved. They want NOTHING to do with God. So this whole notion of loosing salvation is self-defeating, and points to a weak faith, and a God who does nothing.

You are so wrong. I know people who don't want to be damned, but who can't/ won't come to faith. I've noticed that they can't come to faith because they have unresolved grudges against God. It isn't that they have no desire to be saved. Ask @Aardvark, if he's still around.

And I will certainly agree with you about the 'weak faith' part. It's not the absence of faith that determines failure, as OSAS insists. It is the weakness and lack of strength of faith that determines failure. And that is exactly what Jesus taught.

 

[Gregg]

Purify your heart is an action of working out your own salvation. It is a responsibility of the believer to do this action in order to REMAIN IN HIM.

The question is: are we yielding to the Spirit, who dwells in us, or are we walking in the flesh, and yielding to the sin dwelling in our members that lust's for pleasure?

The choice is up to you!

As I stated in another post, the root of your misunderstanding is that you think God's will is nullified by your will; that His sovereignty is supplanted by your sovereignty.

And so what have you come up with to support your doctrine?

1) alteration of the Gospel
2) a man can lose his salvation
3) the Apostles could have lost their salvation
4) the choice [of staying saved] is up to a man
5) a man sustains his salvation

and now

6) we ourselves purify our hearts to remain in Him.

These things indicate a misdirected faith - a faith dependent upon the power, will, and sovereignty of man.


.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes I share it with unbelievers. I share it all the time with them.

It's great being told you can't be set free from the bondage of your sin, and which you will be condemned for, unless you are pre-selected for that freedom apart from any and all consideration of you yourself. Drives people right to the cross, doesn't it?

 

[JLB]

As I stated in another post, the root of your misunderstanding is that you think God's will is nullified by your will; that His sovereignty is supplanted by your sovereignty.

And so what have you come up with to support your doctrine?

1) alteration of the Gospel
2) a man can lose his salvation
3) the Apostles could have lost their salvation
4) the choice [of staying saved] is up to a man
5) a man sustains his salvation

and now

6) we ourselves purify our hearts to remain in Him.

These things indicate a misdirected faith - a faith dependent upon the power, will, and sovereignty of man.


.

Do you believe man has a part in his own salvation, or do you believe that everyone will be saved no matter what?


JLB

 

[Danus]

2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes...

4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.


These words of remain in Me, and I in you are spoken to saved and chosen ones who are in Christ, and Christ is in them.

If these saved ones who are chosen by Him and are in Him, do not REMAIN in Him, then they will wither and not have the ability to produce fruit, and will be gathered up and cast into the fire.

Remaining is not automatic.


JLB

Sure it is. The saved remain in Christ. We agree that's what John 15 says. we also agree that the unsaved are cut away. We also agree (I think) that God does the cutting away, and that He cut away the unsaved, and that He cultivates the saved. .... I think we agree on those points. So what's the rub here?

Did you also read verse 16? 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Do we agree on that? That we did not choose Christ but He chose us? He says He not only chose us, but that He did so so that we will bare fruit that WILL last? That would be the saved. those who are not saved are cut away.

Are you hung up on loosing Gods choice for you? Are you afraid you will be cut away from Christ?

I would not suggest that you shouldn't consider your salvation. You asked a good question and I answered it, brother to brother. I offered you more on John 15 to help point out that God does the cutting away and the keeping and He chooses and that those He chooses can ask anything of Him and He will provide.

You should be joyous in His choice for you, asking Him for what you need, all the while being cultivated by the one who is keeping you. You are not keeping yourself on the vine. He is. John 15 clearly says that, yet you'd rather see it as a warning?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I stated in another post, the root of your misunderstanding is that you think God's will is nullified by your will; that His sovereignty is supplanted by your sovereignty.

And so what have you come up with to support your doctrine?

1) alteration of the Gospel
2) a man can lose his salvation
3) the Apostles could have lost their salvation
4) the choice [of staying saved] is up to a man
5) a man sustains his salvation

and now

6) we ourselves purify our hearts to remain in Him.

These things indicate a misdirected faith - a faith dependent upon the power, will, and sovereignty of man.


.

What you don't understand is the argument is that man all by himself, in and of himself, can't make salvation happen. That hardly means he can't possibly play any part whatsoever in receiving a salvation that can only happen if God grants it.

How does salvation only happening if God grants it make it so that there is absolutely nothing a person can do, or has to do, in order to receive it? You're saying since my cat can't possibly give himself his own bath in the family bathtub that there is no cooperation or will required on his part to get that bath. That is just plain ridiculous. Explain this strange logic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

All this means is we will not first choose him. By nature, we don't have the capacity to do that....until we hear the gospel message and are equipped by faith to respond by choosing the life he offers and turning away from the death we have.

Do we agree on that? That we did not choose Christ but He chose us? He says He not only chose us, but that He did so so that we will bare fruit that WILL last? That would be the saved. those who are not saved are cut away.

You ignore the whole counsel of scripture that shows us that these dead branches may have indeed once been full of life giving sap. Thus the need to now cut them away to be burned.

You are not keeping yourself on the vine. He is. John 15 clearly says that, yet you'd rather see it as a warning?

Like the cat in the bathtub, I guess that means their is no need for the cat to cooperate and sit patiently and obediently in the tub to get the bath, right?

Just because the cat's owner prepared the bath, put the cat in the bath, and scrubs him down--and surely none of that would happen without the owner doing that himself--that doesn't mean the cat has no role to submit to in any way shape or form. To say he has none is ridiculous, logically and empirically.

 

[JLB]

Sure it is. The saved remain in Christ. We agree that's what John 15 says. we also agree that the unsaved are cut away. We also agree (I think) that God does the cutting away, and that He cut away the unsaved, and that He cultivates the saved. .... I think we agree on those points. So what's the rub here?

Did you also read verse 16? 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Do we agree on that? That we did not choose Christ but He chose us? He says He not only chose us, but that He did so so that we will bare fruit that WILL last? That would be the saved. those who are not saved are cut away.

Are you hung up on loosing Gods choice for you? Are you afraid you will be cut away from Christ?

I would not suggest that you shouldn't consider your salvation. You asked a good question and I answered it, brother to brother. I offered you more on John 15 to help point out that God does the cutting away and the keeping and He chooses and that those He chooses can ask anything of Him and He will provide.

You should be joyous in His choice for you, asking Him for what you need, all the while being cultivated by the one who is keeping you. You are not keeping yourself on the vine. He is. John 15 clearly says that, yet you'd rather see it as a warning?

4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.

Why would Jesus command these saved, chosen, disciples to remain in Him, if remaining were automatic?


Jesus clearly explains to us the alternative, to disobeying His Command to remain in Him -


If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


If those who are in Him, choose to disregard His command to remain in Him, then they will wither and not produce fruit.


OSAS folks, must ignore the many commands like this from Jesus and His apostles, to form their man made doctrine.


Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Predetermined salvation is the most meaningless gospel I have ever heard.

Have you ever tried to share such a meaningless gospel with unbelievers looking for the hope of rescue from the slavery and damnation of sin they know they are under? It's hardly 'good news' to tell them they've either been pre-selected for salvation, or they haven't, and there's nothing they can do about it.

It's a gospel that says you will be saved if you are lucky enough to be one of the few chosen to have salvation, instead of what the gospel really says, that you will be among the chosen few if you respond to the call of God through the Holy Spirit to have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

It is just as bad as a gospel that tells them if you are lucky enough to be good enough in the end, God might not toss you into the lake of fire.

It hardly 'good news' to tell them they "might be saved" or saying," you are saved but you might lose it."

Both are not the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

It is just as bad as a gospel that tells them if you are lucky enough to be good enough in the end, God might not toss you into the lake of fire.

It hardly 'good news' to tell them they "might be saved" or saying," you are saved but you might lose it."

Both are not the Gospel.

Lucky enough to be good enough...?

Who has said this?

You are clearly misrepresenting what Jethro has clearly taught, which is a clear violation of this Forums policies. Is that clear!

However, it is a clear indication to all that you really have nothing left to present, as all of your ideas have been refuted by the truth of scripture.


JLB

 

[Danus]

4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me.

Why would Jesus command these saved, chosen, disciples to remain in Him, if remaining were automatic?


Jesus clearly explains to us the alternative, to disobeying His Command to remain in Him -


If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


If those who are in Him, choose to disregard His command to remain in Him, then they will wither and not produce fruit.


OSAS folks, must ignore the many commands like this from Jesus and His apostles, to form their man made doctrine.


Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.



JLB

Well, you did not address my post to you, which is disappointing to me, but you have asked another good question.

"Why would Jesus command these saved, chosen, disciples to remain in Him, if remaining were automatic?"

Answer; The saved need to know what our instructions are. this is why we have commands like worship God only, and so forth. One thing that is unique about the saved is that they do the will of the father. All these commands are of the will of God, and those who are saved do them.

to the unsaved commands are useless, but the reason commands are useless to the unsaved is not merely because they don't follow the commands, but because they CAN'T. They don't have the ability.

This is a point we agree on. In fact it's point also brought up in your good choice of scripture using John 15. The saved remain in Christ. The saved are cultivated in Christ BY God so that they may bare good fruit and more and more good fruit. We agree on all that.

What I see as a difference here is that you read John 15 as a dire warning about loosing salvation, and I don't think you're one bit happy about that what you read in John 15. But Jesus does not say that. Jesus says, of all this we are talking about, 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. So WHY, are you afraid of loosing something you did not make, or find, or gain of your own doing, or even keep of yourself, but something that was GIVEN to you in the first place? Why do you see that as a warning and not something that is of assurance?

You're not keeping yourself on the vine. You've no power to do that, or to cut yourself away. God dose.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is just as bad as a gospel that tells them if you are lucky enough to be good enough in the end, God might not toss you into the lake of fire.

It hardly 'good news' to tell them they "might be saved" or saying," you are saved but you might lose it."

Both are not the Gospel.

It's sad that 'repentance' has lost it's place in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The 'being good' of the gospel is not denying Christ, but having a faith in Christ that justifies, and which produces repentance:

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love (that is what justifies--see context)." (Galatians 5:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

Even Paul, the author of the great grace/works teaching of the Christian church says the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (IOW, is obedient, repentant). James echoes this truth when he says that it is not the faith that is alone (that is, absent of works) that justifies, but the faith that loves in obedience to God. He plainly says that is the faith that justifies.

But OSAS says it is not necessary to have faith that works to be justified by that faith. In contradiction, it says faith that doesn't love justifies (that unholiness just robs you of heavenly reward in the New Jerusalem). But, as I've shown, that's not what the Bible says.

Of course, many in the church have been programmed to hear these plain words of scripture as being the works gospel Paul taught against so they pass it through a veil of OSAS reinterpretation to keep it in line with that doctrine, instead of just taking the plain words for what they say. For some reason 'works' always equates to 'trying to be justified by your works' in the OSAS camp. That's why I say 'works' and 'law' have become the four letter words of the church.

 

[Gregg]

Do you believe man has a part in his own salvation, or do you believe that everyone will be saved no matter what?
JLB

You pose an 'either-or' question assuming that one will be answered with 'yes' and the other with 'no'.

I must admit - your discourse is cunning, subtle, crafty.

 

[DRS81]

JLB - Jethro Bodine

You guys are arguing with Danus ??
Wow, that says a lot to me and your unwillingness to learn.
Anyways, John 15 is speaking about Judas and the eleven disciples.
Judas was never saved to begin with, that's the gist of it. - DRS.

 

[gr8grace3]

Lucky enough to be good enough...?

Who has said this?

You are clearly misrepresenting what Jethro has clearly taught, which is a clear violation of this Forums policies. Is that clear!

However, it is a clear indication to all that you really have nothing left to present, as all of your ideas have been refuted by the truth of scripture.


JLB

Sorry jlb or Jethro. That is what I get from both of your teachings. I equate both of you saying and teaching this.

Purify yourself? I would venture to guess that a lot of people read your teachings and get the same take on what you guys are teaching.

I am telling you what "I" get from what you guys post.

And IMO both of you teach a false gospel of "lucky enough to be good enough." It is just My opinion and my take on what you write. It is not an attack on your person, just what i get from what you guys write on this forum.........your message. I love you guys, I hate your message and totally disagree with it.

But my first post was about "Someone", no one in particular.

 

[Gregg]

What you don't understand is the argument is that man all by himself, in and of himself, can't make salvation happen. That hardly means he can't possibly play any part whatsoever in receiving a salvation that can only happen if God grants it.

How does salvation only happening if God grants it make it so that there is absolutely nothing a person can do, or has to do, in order to receive it? You're saying since my cat can't possibly give himself his own bath in the family bathtub that there is no cooperation or will required on his part to get that bath. That is just plain ridiculous. Explain this strange logic.

Thank you for adding "Explain this strange logic." It is strange, and does not reflect my understanding of Christ or the Gospel.

Doesn't your cat clean himself? Why give him a bath?



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