Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[JLB]

The OSAS perspective fully acknowledges that believers remain sentient beings with a will.

For believers, the will of the flesh has been rendered powerless - as our bodies have been circumcised; and we have been joined to Christ's body, we are now new creatures in Him (Col 2:10; see Rom 2:29, Rom 6:6, Php 3:3, 2Cor 5:17); "in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead" (Col 2:11-12 LITV).

If God is the Author of our faith, then He is also the Finisher of our faith, not one without the other (Heb 12:2 LITV). That is why Paul says with the utmost confidence, "being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Php 1:6 LITV; see Eph 2:9). How did Paul know this? Because what God starts, He finishes. If He gives a man faith, and saves him, and gives him new life - then He will surely finish that work of salvation.

We have life in Christ, and that life is eternal; else the Scriptures would say 'We have temporary life in Christ.'

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Was Jesus talking to saved ones or unsaved ones, here in this verse?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

If He removes them then they were never born again my friend. Apostates!

 

[JLB]

John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

If He removes them then they were never born again my friend. Apostates!

Sorry, you have already agreed that the phrase IN ME, refers to saved ones!


IN ME, is a reference to being in Christ!


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Sorry, you have already agreed that the phrase IN ME, refers to saved ones!


IN ME, is a reference to being in Christ!


JLB

Branches = Sin
Vine = Holy Spirit

There is another thought on this however. He removes the branches of sin in the believer and prunes us to be more holy. Either way man, it's not about losing salvation. It's about God conforming us into his image. He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit. But he prunes and he cleans every fruitful branch. (‘To prune’ means to cut off a part of a plant. This helps it to grow better.) Then the branch will produce even more fruit. So, like the branches, we need God to remove everything that is wrong in our lives. We need him to guide us back when we follow our own way instead of his way. We need him to stop us so that we do not hurt other people. We may not realize that we are hurting them. At such times, we especially need God to stop us. We also need him to make us *clean inside our hearts. We cannot do this by our own efforts.

 

[JLB]

Branches = Sin
Vine = Holy Spirit

There is another thought on this however. He removes the branches of sin in the believer and prunes us to be more holy. Either way man, it's not about losing salvation. It's about God conforming us into his image. He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit. But he prunes and he cleans every fruitful branch. (‘To prune’ means to cut off a part of a plant. This helps it to grow better.) Then the branch will produce even more fruit. So, like the branches, we need God to remove everything that is wrong in our lives. We need him to guide us back when we follow our own way instead of his way. We need him to stop us so that we do not hurt other people. We may not realize that we are hurting them. At such times, we especially need God to stop us. We also need him to make us *clean inside our hearts. We cannot do this by our own efforts.

It has been noted by all who read your post's that you are making up anything to distort the truth of Jesus Christ.

The branches are clearly described by The Lord.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches...

The vine is Christ, not the Holy Spirit!

The branches are you... Those who are in Christ are the branches. Not sin.

He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

JLB I'm studying up on this allegory right now. It's actually about Judas and the 12 disciples. Man you're making me work here.

Please read..... http://www.gty.org/resources/positions/P25/the-vine-and-the-branches

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. (John 15:1-8)

The metaphor in John 15 is of a vine and its branches. The vine is the source and sustenance of life for the branches, and the branches must abide in the vine to live and bear fruit. Jesus, of course, is the vine, and the branches are people. While it is obvious the fruit-bearing branches represent true Christians, the identity of the fruitless ones is in question. Some Bible students say the barren branches are Christians who bear no spiritual fruit. Others believe they are non-Christians. As always, however, we must look to the context for the best answer.

The true meaning of the metaphor is made clear when we consider the characters in that night's drama. The disciples were with Jesus. He had loved them to the uttermost; He had comforted them with the words in John chapter 14. The Father was foremost in His thoughts, because He was thinking of the events of the next day. But He was also aware of someone else--the betrayer. Judas had been dismissed from the fellowship when he rejected Jesus' final appeal of love.

All the characters of the drama were in the mind of Jesus. He saw the eleven, whom He loved deeply and passionately. He was aware of the Father, with whom He shared an infinite love. And He must have grieved over Judas, whom He had loved unconditionally.

All those characters play a part in Jesus' metaphor. The vine is Christ; the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true disciples of the church age. The fruitless branches represent Judas and all those who never were true disciples.

Jesus had long been aware of the difference between Judas and the eleven. After washing the disciples' feet, He said, "'He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.' For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, 'Not all of you are clean'" (John 13:10-11). Once a person is forgiven by God, he is clean and does not need the bathing of forgiveness again. All that is necessary is to clean the dust and dirt of daily sins from his feet.

His point was that a child of God who commits a sin doesn't need to be saved again; he needs only to restore his personal relationship with the Father. But Judas had not even been "bathed," because he was not a child of God, and Jesus knew it. That is why He added, "not all of you are clean." Judas appeared to be like the other disciples. He was with Jesus for the same amount of time--he had even been given the responsibility of keeping the money. It appeared that he was a branch in the vine like the others--but he never bore real fruit. God finally removed that branch from the vine, and it was burned.

Some would say he had lost his salvation. According to them, the same could happen to any believer who does not bear fruit. But Jesus made a promise to His children, "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). He guaranteed the security of the child of God: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37). A true believer cannot lose his salvation and be condemned to hell.

A branch that is truly connected to the vine is secure and will never be removed. But one that only appears to be connected--one that has only a superficial connection--will be removed. If it does not have the life of the vine flowing through it, it will bear no fruit. Those are the Judas-branches.

There are people who, like Judas, appear by human perception to be united with Christ, but they are apostates doomed to hell. They may attend church, know all the right answers, and go through religious motions; but God will remove them, and they will be burned. Others, like the eleven, are genuinely connected to the vine and bear fruit.

 

[chessman]

That's a big scripture that you posted..."work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

It's a big Scripture, sure. But why not upsize it (#12) to a super size Scripture for only 1 cent more?

Philippians 2:13 For the one at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, is God. ​

If OSAS is true, then what in the world is this talking about?

the same thing all Scripture is talking about. God! And His good pleasure.

 

[JLB]

JLB I'm studying up on this allegory right now. It's actually about Judas and the 12 disciples. Man you're making me work here.

Please read..... http://www.gty.org/resources/positions/P25/the-vine-and-the-branches

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. (John 15:1-8)

The metaphor in John 15 is of a vine and its branches. The vine is the source and sustenance of life for the branches, and the branches must abide in the vine to live and bear fruit. Jesus, of course, is the vine, and the branches are people. While it is obvious the fruit-bearing branches represent true Christians, the identity of the fruitless ones is in question. Some Bible students say the barren branches are Christians who bear no spiritual fruit. Others believe they are non-Christians. As always, however, we must look to the context for the best answer.

The true meaning of the metaphor is made clear when we consider the characters in that night's drama. The disciples were with Jesus. He had loved them to the uttermost; He had comforted them with the words in John chapter 14. The Father was foremost in His thoughts, because He was thinking of the events of the next day. But He was also aware of someone else--the betrayer. Judas had been dismissed from the fellowship when he rejected Jesus' final appeal of love.

All the characters of the drama were in the mind of Jesus. He saw the eleven, whom He loved deeply and passionately. He was aware of the Father, with whom He shared an infinite love. And He must have grieved over Judas, whom He had loved unconditionally.

All those characters play a part in Jesus' metaphor. The vine is Christ; the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true disciples of the church age. The fruitless branches represent Judas and all those who never were true disciples.

Jesus had long been aware of the difference between Judas and the eleven. After washing the disciples' feet, He said, "'He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.' For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, 'Not all of you are clean'" (John 13:10-11). Once a person is forgiven by God, he is clean and does not need the bathing of forgiveness again. All that is necessary is to clean the dust and dirt of daily sins from his feet.

His point was that a child of God who commits a sin doesn't need to be saved again; he needs only to restore his personal relationship with the Father. But Judas had not even been "bathed," because he was not a child of God, and Jesus knew it. That is why He added, "not all of you are clean." Judas appeared to be like the other disciples. He was with Jesus for the same amount of time--he had even been given the responsibility of keeping the money. It appeared that he was a branch in the vine like the others--but he never bore real fruit. God finally removed that branch from the vine, and it was burned.

Some would say he had lost his salvation. According to them, the same could happen to any believer who does not bear fruit. But Jesus made a promise to His children, "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). He guaranteed the security of the child of God: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37). A true believer cannot lose his salvation and be condemned to hell.

A branch that is truly connected to the vine is secure and will never be removed. But one that only appears to be connected--one that has only a superficial connection--will be removed. If it does not have the life of the vine flowing through it, it will bear no fruit. Those are the Judas-branches.

There are people who, like Judas, appear by human perception to be united with Christ, but they are apostates doomed to hell. They may attend church, know all the right answers, and go through religious motions; but God will remove them, and they will be burned. Others, like the eleven, are genuinely connected to the vine and bear fruit.

The foundation for this study is the phrase in Christ.

Study that phrase, so that you yourself will determine on your own with The Holy Spirit leading you through the word, if this phrase represents people who are saved or not.

Then you will have an unshakable foundation of understanding built upon the solid rock of Jesus' Word's.


If you will do that, you will come away with a motivated drive to be a person who has an understanding heart.

I encourage you to continue to study to show yourself approved, and to be determined to build your house on the rock of truth that only comes from Jesus and His Words.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's a big Scripture, sure. But why not upsize it (#12) to a super size Scripture for only 1 cent more?

Philippians 2:13 For the one at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, is God. ​

the same thing all Scripture is talking about. God! And His good pleasure.

You paid to up-size this scripture, but you didn't get the whole meal.

You just took the burger and fries, and thought that you had the whole meal.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12:-13


work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;





JLB

 

[JLB]

1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. James 4:4-8

The Spirit who dwells in us... is a reference to born again Christians who:

• ... are walking in the flesh. - your desires for pleasure that war in your members

• You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain.. the works of the flesh

• ...living a worldly life - Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God. unfaithful to Christ!

• Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Purify your heart is an action of working out your own salvation. It is a responsibility of the believer to do this action in order to REMAIN IN HIM.

The Spirit in us is God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

The question is: are we yielding to the Spirit, who dwells in us, or are we walking in the flesh, and yielding to the sin dwelling in our members that lust's for pleasure?


The choice is up to you!


JLB

 

[Danus]

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Was Jesus talking to saved ones or unsaved ones, here in this verse?


JLB

Good question. Answer: Those who do not remain are not the saved. So Jesus is speaking of the unsaved.

We know that some are saved and some are not. If you back up in John 15, you'll notice the first verse. 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. ....again some are saved and some are not. Those that are cut away bare no fruit, but those that bare fruit are "cultivated" by God, not of themselves, to bare even more fruit. The unsaved are cut away. The branches who are not saved can not remain on the vine. No matter what they do they will be cut away, they will leave, they will not remain because they are not saved. In similar note: those that are saved remain, they can't leave because they are saved and they are cultivated.

 

[JLB]

Good question. Answer: Those who do not remain are not the saved. So Jesus is speaking of the unsaved.

We know that some are saved and some are not. If you back up in John 15, you'll notice the first verse. 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. ....again some are saved and some are not. Those that are cut away bare no fruit, but those that bare fruit are "cultivated" by God, not of themselves, to bare even more fruit. The unsaved are cut away. The branches who are not saved can not remain on the vine. No matter what they do they will be cut away, they will leave, they will not remain because they are not saved. In similar note: those that are saved remain, they can't leave because they are saved and they are cultivated.

Jesus was talking to those who were IN HIM, and encouraging them to REMAIN IN HIM.


Do you believe those who are IN CHRIST ARE UNSAVED?

This is the question I have asked several times.

You just spinned the question around to state, and I quote Those who do not remain are not the saved.

I couldn't agree more!

However that's not the question. The question is are those who ARE IN HIM SAVED?


He is telling those who ARE IN HIM, to REMAIN IN HIM.

One can not remain in a house, if one is first not IN THE HOUSE.

The warning to born again believers who are IN CHRIST, is to REMAIN IN CHRIST.


JLB

 

[Edward]

1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. James 4:4-8

The Spirit who dwells in us... is a reference to born again Christians who:

• ... are walking in the flesh. - your desires for pleasure that war in your members

• You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain.. the works of the flesh

• ...living a worldly life - Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God. unfaithful to Christ!

• Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Purify your heart is an action of working out your own salvation. It is a responsibility of the believer to do this action in order to REMAIN IN HIM.

The Spirit in us is God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

The question is: are we yielding to the Spirit, who dwells in us, or are we walking in the flesh, and yielding to the sin dwelling in our members that lust's for pleasure?


The choice is up to you!


JLB

Wow. I almost reported this post for having too much truth in it, lol. Good morning to you brother!

 

[Danus]

Jesus was talking to those who were IN HIM, and encouraging them to REMAIN IN HIM.


Do you believe those who are IN CHRIST ARE UNSAVED?

This is the question I have asked several times.

You just spinned the question around to state, and I quote Those who do not remain are not the saved.

I couldn't agree more!

However that's not the question. The question is are those who ARE IN HIM SAVED?


He is telling those who ARE IN HIM, to REMAIN IN HIM.

One can not remain in a house, if one is first not IN THE HOUSE.

The warning to born again believers who are IN CHRIST, is to REMAIN IN CHRIST.


JLB

I'm confused, You posted this verse; .......If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Then you asked this good question: Was Jesus talking to saved ones or unsaved ones, here in this verse?

You'll notice in the verse that Jesus is talking about the UNSAVED, those are the ones he is talking about. They are throne aside. So, what's the dillio?

Obviously the saved will remain in Christ and the unsaved will be cut off.

 

[gr8grace3]

Wrong. As proven by the following verse in that same chapter:
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Now, the beginning of the verse notes a believer who is described as "just", or justified, and shall live by faith.

In v.38b, we read "if he withdraw". The KJV is wrong. 38b refers back to 38a. The NASB has it according to the original Greek: " But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

The verse teaches us that if the justified one shrinks back, or withdraws, God will have no pleasure in him.

Still nothing about loss of salvation. But lots about a Father displeased with His errant son. As I've pointed out all along.

I agree that it has nothing to do with loss of salvation and NO verse in the bible teaches loss of salvation. but Heb 10:26 is about someone that has never believed in Christ alone for their salvation.

26~~(For if we deliberately continue sinning {rejection of Christ} after having received the full knowledge {epignosis}
of {gospel type} doctrine {aletheia},
there 'is left behind'/remains
absolutely no more sacrifice on behalf of sins.

Vs 27 goes on to show what is to be expected if one continues to reject the Spirits leading to the Gospel, And what is to be expected is not for a born again believer. This expectation is for one who has never believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. The Father would not do this to an errant son.

Heb 10:27~~But a certain terrifying expectation of judgment
and fury of fire,
being about to devour {esthio}
the enemies.

Esthio was used by the Greeks to describe eating but never swallowing the food. Chewing forever, but never swallowing. A reference to the fire that burns forever but does not consume. And that is reserved for a person who has never believed on Christ alone.

Isaiah 26:11 NASB~~O LORD, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it. They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame; Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies.

 

[JLB]

I'm confused, You posted this verse; .......If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Then you asked this good question: Was Jesus talking to saved ones or unsaved ones, here in this verse?

You'll notice in the verse that Jesus is talking about the UNSAVED, those are the ones he is talking about. They are throne aside. So, what's the dillio?

Obviously the saved will remain in Christ and the unsaved will be cut off.

Those who are in Christ are saved.

Those who do not REMAIN IN CHRIST, will BECOME unsaved.

Hopefully you can agree?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree that it has nothing to do with loss of salvation and NO verse in the bible teaches loss of salvation.

Is this command remain in Me given to a saved or unsaved person?

 

[JLB]

Wow. I almost reported this post for having too much truth in it, lol. Good morning to you brother!

Good morning to you, man of God!

 

[Danus]

Those who are in Christ are saved.

Those who do not REMAIN IN CHRIST, will BECOME unsaved.

Hopefully you can agree?


JLB

Pretty close. I'd say there is no "becoming" unsaved.

The beginning of John 15 seems to speak of those who are cut away as being in Christ, 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit. However, notice the "cutter"...who is the cutter of the branches? Does the branch cut it's own self away? No, it says that GOD Himself is the one who dose the cutting away.

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Does the branch cut or prune itself? That's the key to this verse. While it may seem to suggest that the individual can remain or be cut away, that's not what it says. When Jesus says remain in me He is speaking to those who will not be cut away.

Jesus is not giving an ultimatum here. He's not giving anyone a "choice" to remain or not remain. Notice verse 16, 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

The only people who are in Christ are those whom God has chosen to be, and the only people who remain in Christ are those God has chosen to keep. They are the saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does one "allow it to", or not, for that matter?

Believers who have been sanctified in Christ either walk in that sanctification, or they don't. As we've seen in the Bible, if you choose not to, you, like Esau, will forfeit your right of birth to the inheritance.

We believers have an inheritance by right of birth. The warning is that you will lose that right of birth if you are like Esau and 'sell' your birthright for sensual pleasure. "Afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:17 NASB).

Of course, the popular OSAS teaching is that all one will lose is heavenly reward, but I showed in Revelation where there is no salvation outside of the inheritance, the New Jerusalem, only the fires of damnation for the unholy. Which, as we see, includes those who have rights to the inheritance by right of (spiritual) birth, but who by their own choice choose to not live set apart lives in accordance with that set-apart status they have by virtue of that birth.

You've put a whole lot of criteria on salvation that the Bible never teaches.

The requirements for salvation are to be justified by faith, and to be sanctified by that same faith. Of course, all you're probably hearing in that is 'works'. The argument is, the faith that saves is the faith that is obedient. That is NOT the works gospel Paul warned against. Even he defined the faith that justifies as the faith that works through love (Galatians 5:6 NASB)--love being obedience to God's commands.

Sanctification is not based on me or my actions. God does it, the moment one believes.

Positional sanctification happens the moment one believes. It happens because 1) you believe, and 2) God is faithful and just to respond to a person's trust in Jesus Christ. Without God's response salvation is impossible--but that hardly means we don't have to believe, and continue to believe, to secure what won't happen without him.

And there are no verses about being UNsanctified, just as there aren't any verses about being Unsaved.

There are the verses I shared about not living up to the sanctification that one receives when they believe. You will lose the right of birth you are set apart to if you choose to not live in that set apartness, just as Esau traded his right of birth through his careless and foolish contempt for his birth right. And, once you lose it, there's no way to get it back.

So, for those of us set apart believers who think you don't have to live up to the sanctification you have been freely given through Christ to still inherit the kingdom....think again. It's a pipe dream of the flesh to think you can freely choose to go on sinning after you have been set apart by faith in Christ and somehow still have the benefit of that sanctification. You will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment. You can not sell your birthright out to carnal needs and pleasures and keep it at the same time. But OSAS says you can.

You've made it nonsensical. The point is that Christ WAS the sacrifice for ALL sin. So sin cannot be an issue in salvation. In fact, sin is NEVER an issue in salvation. Because Christ paid the price for it.

Never, huh? You seem to have forgotten about the unpardonable sin.

It is an assumption to conclude that "fire" here means hell. When hell is in view, we find descriptive words like "eternal". IE: Matt 18:8, 25:41 and Jude 7.

Okay, good. By making the fire of Hebrews 10:27 NASB not the fire of damnation, you are showing me that you agree that sanctified believers can indeed commit the unpardonable sin. We're making progress.

Further, the word "consume" should be a hint for you. No one is consumed in hell. Remember, it's where "their worm never dies". Mk 9:44, 46, 48.

You can play games with what the lake of fire actually is to suit your doctrine, whether it's literal or figurative, or not, or how much of each it actually is, but the text plainly says the punishment given these sanctified believers is the punishment of the adversaries of God.

That's what makes debating this so easy for non-OSAS--we just go by the plain words of scripture, but OSAS has to do these spine twisting gymnastics to make the obvious not really mean what it so plainly says. I have repented of that deceitfulness. I was called on the carpet about it, and I knew in my heart it was wrong to do and that it was doing a disservice to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I dun said:

If you keep on willfully sinning after you get saved (the text says they are saved) then you don't have a sacrifice for sin left to protect you and you will be damned with the enemies of God.

Your "interpretation" is wrong. Their problem was that they were returning to the Law and its sacrifices.

So, are you going to be like most OSAS Protestants and wax theologically and insist you lose your salvation for doing that, but in the next discussion about OSAS insist that a believer can never lose their salvation? Just asking.

I've NEVER said that any believer will get away with willful sin. I've ALWAYS emphasized that such a believer will face the hand of discipline of God, and I've given verses to back that up.

And I showed you the verses that show us that the punishment the disobedient, Christ denying believer will endure is not a loss of rewards within the New Jerusalem, but losing the birthright to the New Jerusalem altogether and being put outside the inheritance where all unholy people will go. Their fate being the lake of fire--whatever the burning of the lake of fire actually is.

So, yes, let's start being honest here. You have NOT YET provided any verse that actually says that one's salvation can be lost. That is only an assumption and an opinion. There is NO Scriptural basis for it. You're not connecting the dots correctly.

You keep redefining terms, adding words, and ignoring texts. That's why you think there's no scriptural basis for it. I'd be worried if I were you. You have EVERYTHING to lose if you pattern your life after your doctrine and you're wrong. I have NOTHING to lose if I pattern my life after my doctrine and I'm right, or even if I'm wrong. Think about it.

Are you really willing to gamble your life on this OSAS thing? And teach others to do the same?

There is no "curious bug" in my understanding of eternal security. I don't "allow blood Jews" anything.

Maybe you tell others that when one goes back to the law from Christ, they aren't saved anymore, maybe you don't. But it's funny how many OSAS Protestants I've talked to in law and OSAS discussions that say if a believer keeps the law they are now trying to be saved by their works and will not be saved, but then in an OSAS discussion say it's impossible for a believer to lose their salvation. I'm entertained by the duplicity of their beliefs.