Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Danus]

Do you believe man has a part in his own salvation, or do you believe that everyone will be saved no matter what?


JLB

I know this was meant for Gregg, but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

You're posing a false dichotomy. Your saying man either plays a role in his own salvation or all are saved. You're leaving out the most obvious and that is that some are saved and some are not.

A better question is, does man effect his own salvation? My answer to that is NO, man dose not have the ability to "effect" his own salvation but he does have the ability to "affect" his own salvation. Two very different things.

 

[JLB]

You pose an 'either-or' question assuming that one will be answered with 'yes' and the other with 'no'.

I must admit - your discourse is cunning, subtle, crafty.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


What happens to a person who does not remain in Christ?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...WHY, are you afraid of loosing something you did not make, or find, or gain of your own doing, or even keep of yourself, but something that was GIVEN to you in the first place?

He can speak for himself, but this is the kind of 'fear' I have:

"19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. " (Romans 11:19-21 NASB)

Of course, the OSAS response to this is you are only being cutoff from kingdgom privilege, not the kingdom itself, and/or you were never grafted in to begin with (grafted in, but not really grafted in--how does that work?). But we see from the whole counsel of scripture that there is no salvation outside of the kingdom, only the damnation of the unholy, the lake of fire, whatever that actually consists of (I just know it's not good...and that it's forever, as in irreversible).

See, Danus, your doctrine, particularly, is potentially guilty of this arrogant lack of fear. Your doctrine says, "hey, I'm saved as a result of no consideration of me whatsoever, but just because God wanted it to be that way for me, so, what I do can't change that." This really hits at what I was saying about teaching this kind of stuff to unbelievers. The arrogance of the church is perhaps the unbelievers most hated and despised thing about us. Perhaps our witnessing would be more effective and respected by them if we got off of our 'I'm privileged, and there's nothing I can do about it, so sorry for you' pedestal.

 

[DRS81]

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


What happens to a person who does not remain in Christ?


JLB

Exactly what happened to Judas, he was thrown aside, a nonbeliever.
You do realize John 15 was BEFORE resurrection right?
The Holy Spirit's duties were not the same before and after resurrection!

 

[Gregg]

What happens to a person who does not remain in Christ?
JLB

Rather, what has happened to the person who is in Christ?

Go an learn what it is to be 'in Christ.'

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


What happens to a person who does not remain in Christ?


JLB

Silly you. OSAS has their own dictionary. 'Remain' doesn't mean they were in the place of remaining to begin with. That would go against OSAS beliefs.

But this is the kind of redefining one must do to discern the Bible according to doctrine and not the other way around.

 

[gr8grace3]

It's sad that 'repentance' has lost it's place in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The 'being good' of the gospel is not denying Christ, but having a faith in Christ that justifies, and which produces repentance:

"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love (that is what justifies--see context)." (Galatians 5:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

Even Paul, the author of the great grace/works teaching of the Christian church says the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (IOW, is obedient, repentant). James echoes this truth when he says that it is not the faith that is alone (that is, absent of works) that justifies, but the faith that loves in obedience to God. He plainly says that is the faith that justifies.

But OSAS says it is not necessary to have faith that works to be justified by that faith. In contradiction, it says faith that doesn't love justifies (that unholiness just robs you of heavenly reward in the New Jerusalem). But, as I've shown, that's not what the Bible says.

Of course, many in the church have been programmed to hear these plain words of scripture as being the works gospel Paul taught against so they pass it through a veil of OSAS reinterpretation to keep it in line with that doctrine, instead of just taking the plain words for what they say. For some reason 'works' always equates to 'trying to be justified by your works' in the OSAS camp. That's why I say 'works' and 'law' have become the four letter words of the church.

Repentance is changing your mind about who Christ is.

Judas repented or felt sorry for his sin. But He didn't repent of who he thought the innocent man was who he betrayed.

Acts 16:31 is a gospel witness to an unsaved person. Aorist tense .....believe. the moment one believes, one is saved.

It is not," Believe on the lord Jesus Christ, continue to believe for the rest of your life, purify yourself,discontinue sin,feed the poor,do missions,go to church,have potlucks,tithe,read your bible,pray and you MIGHT be saved."

 

[jonahmano]

It is not," Believe on the lord Jesus Christ, continue to believe for the rest of your life, purify yourself,discontinue sin,feed the poor,do missions,go to church,have potlucks,tithe,read your bible,pray and you MIGHT be saved."

But it is also not just to believe in Lord Jesus Christ, say out the favorite verse of Romans 10:9 and then just mind your own business involving in wordly pleasures and thinking that only belief is enough for your salvation and do whatever you want and think that I'm already saved only because of my belief and nothing else.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why did only the #4 soil (people) produce fruit? Plants need adequate water and sunlight. But not to much water or the cells burst. Or too much sunlight and they scorch.

You've answered your question. Believers need spiritual food in order to grow. And Jesus clarified the analogy this way:
soil #2 didn't produce fruit because of temptation:
Luke 8:13
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

iow, the rocky soil represents believers who did not grow up spiritually, i.e.: no firm root. They weren't "grounded" (no pun intended).

Soil #3 didn't produce fruit because of the worries, pleasures and riches of this life:
Luke 8:14
“The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

iow, they were distracted by life's distractions. They too didn't grow up spiritually.

It should be obvious from the parable that soils 2-4 produced plants from the seeds. This indicates NEW LIFE. Only in soil #1 do we not see any plant, because there was no faith.

Seed germination starts when a seed is provided with water. As seeds imbibe water, they expand and enzymes and food supplies become hydrated. Hydrated enzymes become active and the seed increase its metabolic activities to produce energy for the growth process. In addition, the water causes turgor pressure to increase in the cells and they are able to enlarge. Or they can burst if they imbibe too much water.

Unfortunately, none of this is germaine to our Lord's parable. It was all about the condition of the soils. Soil one never produced a plant because the seeds were eaten by birds (snatched away by the devil). But the other soils DID produce plants from the seeds.

Matthew 13:6 But when the sun rose it was scorched, and because it did not have enough root, it withered. ... Matthew 13:5 it did not have any depth of soil.

Yep. A plant grew from the seed, representing NEW LIFE.​

If germination occurs in darkness, root growth slows after the shoot emerges and shoot elongation accelerates. This behavior increases the chance that the seedling will emerge from soil into the light where it will be able to obtain energy from sunlight by photosynthesis.

More irrelevance to Jesus' story.

Luke 8:7 And other seed fell in the midst of the thorn plants, and the thorn plants grew up with it and choked it.

There it is: the plants grew up. There was NEW LIFE from the seed.

Luke 8:6 And other seed fell on the rock, and when it came up, it withered, because it did not have moisture.

There it is again: "when IT (a plant) came up, it withered". The appearance of a plant coming up represents NEW LIFE.

Luke 8:11, 15 Now the parable means this: ... bear fruit with patient endurance.

Sure. But soils 2 and 3 produced NEW LIFE from the seed planted (gospel). They were saved, but didn't produce fruit.

 

[gr8grace3]

But it is also not just to believe in Lord Jesus Christ, say out the favorite verse of Romans 10:9 and then just mind your own business involving in wordly pleasures and thinking that only belief is enough for your salvation and do whatever you want and think that I'm already saved only because of my belief and nothing else.

Acts 16:31 NASB~~They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It does not say," Believe on the lord Jesus, and wait for Romans 10:9, and mind your own business involving world pleasures, belief is not enough,don't do what you want and don't think your saved because you believe and then you shall be saved, you and your household."

 

[DRS81]

But it is also not just to believe in Lord Jesus Christ, say out the favorite verse of Romans 10:9 and then just mind your own business involving in wordly pleasures and thinking that only belief is enough for your salvation and do whatever you want and think that I'm already saved only because of my belief and nothing else.

You're using the logic of man to justify the logic of an all powerful and all knowing God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, you have already agreed that the phrase IN ME, refers to saved ones!

IN ME, is a reference to being in Christ!
JLB

I think y'all are missing the point. To "abide" in Christ is a reference to fellowship, not relationship. And it is ONLY when believers are in fellowship with Christ (1 Jn 1) that we are able to produce fruit.

How does a believer not abide in Christ? When he/she grieves the Spirit, or quenches the Spirit. They are "out of fellowship".

Seems not many people here understand that.

 

[FreeGrace]

You paid to up-size this scripture, but you didn't get the whole meal.

You just took the burger and fries, and thought that you had the whole meal.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12:-13


work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;





JLB

Do you believe that salvation is earned by your "working it out"?? Yes or no.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. James 4:4-8

The Spirit who dwells in us... is a reference to born again Christians who:

• ... are walking in the flesh. - your desires for pleasure that war in your members

• You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain.. the works of the flesh

• ...living a worldly life - Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God. unfaithful to Christ!

• Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Purify your heart is an action of working out your own salvation. It is a responsibility of the believer to do this action in order to REMAIN IN HIM.

It means to remain IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. We have NO power to keep ourselves saved, as it seems you are suggesting.

The choice is up to you!
JLB

Yes, to stay in fellowship or not. Has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus was talking to those who were IN HIM, and encouraging them to REMAIN IN HIM.


Do you believe those who are IN CHRIST ARE UNSAVED?

This is the question I have asked several times.

You just spinned the question around to state, and I quote Those who do not remain are not the saved.

I couldn't agree more!

However that's not the question. The question is are those who ARE IN HIM SAVED?


He is telling those who ARE IN HIM, to REMAIN IN HIM.

One can not remain in a house, if one is first not IN THE HOUSE.

The warning to born again believers who are IN CHRIST, is to REMAIN IN CHRIST.
JLB

Saved people can be in or out of fellowship with Christ.

When they are in fellowship, they said to be "abiding" in Him and will produce fruit. When they are out of fellowship, they are not abiding in Him, and cannot produce fruit.

It is real simple.

 

[jonahmano]

You're using the logic of man to justify the logic of an all powerful and all knowing God.

If you are saying that then indirectly you are meaning that the whole bible is logically written by a man and not inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry jlb or Jethro. That is what I get from both of your teachings. I equate both of you saying and teaching this.

Purify yourself? I would venture to guess that a lot of people read your teachings and get the same take on what you guys are teaching.

Didn't I say that's what most in the church hear--that what we're saying is you clean yourself up, instead of what we are actually saying, that you must stay under the shower head of God's grace to stay clean.

I am telling you what "I" get from what you guys post.

The only 'I' in it is 'I' have to stay in God's grace to inherit the kingdom he has promised me. I got in that grace by faith in Christ, and I stay in that grace by my continued faith in Christ--a faith helped along and supported by God.

And IMO both of you teach a false gospel of "lucky enough to be good enough."

What's 'lucky' about staying in the grace of God that qualifies us for the kingdom? It is offered to all of mankind (not just a select few pre-detemined ahead of time to have it), and you either take it, or you don't. And you either stay in it, or you don't.

 

[gr8grace3]

I think y'all are missing the point. To "abide" in Christ is a reference to fellowship, not relationship. And it is ONLY when believers are in fellowship with Christ (1 Jn 1) that we are able to produce fruit.

How does a believer not abide in Christ? When he/she grieves the Spirit, or quenches the Spirit. They are "out of fellowship".

Seems not many people here understand that.

I agree. and If the believer does not understand this it is just human good and not divine good that is produced. All of our effort is for naught and is just human good ready to be burned up.

It is serious business, because if the believer thinks that these verses are about maintaining salvation all the "fruit" is from the wrong motivation and from our own efforts and is human good. It will all be burned up. And the believer cannot produce "divine good works."

 

[jonahmano]

Acts 16:31 NASB~~They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It does not say," Believe on the lord Jesus, and wait for Romans 10:9, and mind your own business involving world pleasures, belief is not enough,don't do what you want and don't think your saved because you believe and then you shall be saved, you and your household."

Are you meaning that you believe and your household will be saved? Are to trying to create another concept that if you are saved then your household will be saved and it's not necessary that your household should know and walk in Christ???

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree that it has nothing to do with loss of salvation and NO verse in the bible teaches loss of salvation. but Heb 10:26 is about someone that has never believed in Christ alone for their salvation.

26~~(For if we deliberately continue sinning {rejection of Christ} after having received the full knowledge {epignosis}
of {gospel type} doctrine {aletheia},
there 'is left behind'/remains
absolutely no more sacrifice on behalf of sins.

The "we" must refer to the writer plus his audience, which is saved believing Jews. And he makes that clear from this: after having received the epignosis of gospel doctrine. That cannot refer to an unbeliever, because they have not ever received epignosis gospel doctrine.

Again, one of the problems was that a number of Jewish believers had returned to animal sacrifice and following the Law. And the writer was telling them, look, there is no more sacrifice for sin in the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law by becoming the perfect once and for all sacrifice (Heb 9:12).

Vs 27 goes on to show what is to be expected if one continues to reject the Spirits leading to the Gospel, And what is to be expected is not for a born again believer. This expectation is for one who has never believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. The Father would not do this to an errant son.

Heb 10:27~~But a certain terrifying expectation of judgment
and fury of fire,
being about to devour {esthio}
the enemies.

I believe this is a clear warning to those believers who have returned to the Law and sacrifices. They will face the mighty hand of God in discipline. And the writer makes clear what kind of discipline God will meter out: scourging (skinning alive with a whip). Of course not literally, but figuratively is sure means that the believer won't be very comfortable.

[QUOTE\]Esthio was used by the Greeks to describe eating but never swallowing the food. Chewing forever, but never swallowing. A reference to the fire that burns forever but does not consume. And that is reserved for a person who has never believed on Christ alone.[/QUOTE]
You've jumped from chewing without swallowing to an eternal fire. Except that the passage doesn't indicate any of that.

Isaiah 26:11 NASB~~O LORD, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it. They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame; Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies.

A reference to physical death.