Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

I don't assume to think any such thing, so please keep your presumptuous comments to your self.

I just simply let the scriptures speak for themselves.

If you refuse what the scripture teaches then that's between you and God.


JLB

No presumption here, and I am not alone in it. My post #1581 accurately portrays the root of your misunderstanding and misguidance.

The sum total of your witness in this thread is that you trust in yourself to sustain your salvation, that you have faith in yourself to keep believing, and that the creature has power over the will and work of his Creator.

Now go to the chalkboard and write "eternal" 7,000 times.


.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you can show a scripture that says a person who believes for a while, then falls away is still saved, then you will have a valid point, if you can not, then you have a man made Gospel.

The point is valid because there are NO verses that actually warn against loss of salvation. There are many verses that warn against loss, but NONE state it is salvation that one must be warned about.

Second, I've given verses that GUARANTEE that the born again child of God is secure, yet you ignore them. Unless you can exegete them to prove that they aren't saying what the words actually say, then you might have a point. Unless…….

No scripture, No truth.

That is your view, sure.

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 JLB

I'm still looking for a verse that says what you claim. This verse sure doesn't, either.

Did you bother to look up the Greek word for "in vain"?? Obviously not.
eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

Please pay attention to "without purpose". What is the purpose of our faith, or believing? Salvation, as 1 Pet 1:9 actually says:
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

So, 1 Cor 15:2 is saying that unless we are believing in Christ FOR salvation, we are believing in vain.

For example, if one thinks they are saved because they believe that Jesus was a human being and lived in the early 1st century, that is not saving faith, and they have believed IN VAIN.

Another example: if one believes in Christ for prosperity, blessing, etc, they are believing IN VAIN.

But…those who are believing in Christ FOR salvation, they are not believing in vain.

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have confidence in Him who I believe.

You say that, but your previous posts clearly indicate that your confidence is in your continued faith.

I believe the same thing: that I have confidence IN HIM who I believe. Yet our views are totally different.

Please show me a clear verse about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. And please don't re-hash Luke 8:13, which doesn't say anything about loss of salvation. The "falling away" refers obviously to "believed for a while", which means they ceased to believe. That's what they fell away from.

The verses you quote do not clearly SAY what you CLAIM. Where are your crystal clear verses?

 

[chessman]

In 3 of the 4 soils there were plants that germinated from the seed. Do you know what that signifies? New life. Salvation. Soils 2-4 are all saved, but only #4 produced fruit.

Why did only the #4 soil (people) produce fruit? Plants need adequate water and sunlight. But not to much water or the cells burst. Or too much sunlight and they scorch.

Seed germination starts when a seed is provided with water. As seeds imbibe water, they expand and enzymes and food supplies become hydrated. Hydrated enzymes become active and the seed increase its metabolic activities to produce energy for the growth process. In addition, the water causes turgor pressure to increase in the cells and they are able to enlarge. Or they can burst if they imbibe too much water.

The first part of the seedling to emerge from the seed coat is the root. The emergence of the root is typically used as the first indication that a seed is viable.

Matthew 13:6 But when the sun rose it was scorched, and because it did not have enough root, it withered. ... Matthew 13:5 it did not have any depth of soil. ​

Eventually the shoot will also expand and emerge from the seed.

If germination occurs in darkness, root growth slows after the shoot emerges and shoot elongation accelerates. This behavior increases the chance that the seedling will emerge from soil into the light where it will be able to obtain energy from sunlight by photosynthesis.

Once a seedling emerges into the light, the plant undergoes dramatic changes such as turning green and producing leaves. This light-dependent developmental transformation is called photomorphogenesis.

Luke 8:7 And other seed fell in the midst of the thorn plants, and the thorn plants grew up with it and choked it.

Luke 11:34 Your eye is the lamp of the body. When your eye is sincere, your whole body is full of light also. But when it is evil, your body is dark also.
​

In darkness, as would occur for seeds buried in soil, most of the food reserves in the seed are used to provide resources for the seedling to grow enough to reach the light and produce its own food by photosynthesis.

Through gravitropism, the seedlings can send their shoot towards the surface of the soil where it will eventually emerge into light. At the same time.the seedling uses gravity to orient its roots so they grow down into the soil where they can find water and minerals for growth.

Luke 8:6 And other seed fell on the rock, and when it came up, it withered, because it did not have moisture.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”


Luke 8:11, 15 Now the parable means this: ... bear fruit with patient endurance.
​

 

[JLB]

No presumption here, and I am not alone in it. My post #1581 accurately portrays the root of your misunderstanding and misguidance.

The sum total of your witness in this thread is that you trust in yourself to sustain your salvation, that you have faith in yourself to keep believing, and that the creature has power over the will and work of his Creator.

Now go to the chalkboard and write "eternal" 7,000 times.


.

These poor souls bought into the same OSAS Gospel you are teaching.

They thought once saved always saved, also.

The even started to argue with Jesus, when He sentenced them to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.

And by the way, the devil used to be called Lucifer...

Your misunderstanding is you think the person who believes in Christ for salvation, somehow loses his free will and becomes a mindless robot that God makes to stay saved!

For it is God who works in us, both to will and do His good pleasure...

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16

Can you at least see the divine co-operation between the will of God working within the believer, and the will of the believer submitting and doing what The Spirit is leading him to do?

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46

Professing to know God, BUT IN WORKS DENYING HIM!

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God!


JLB

 

[Edward]

These poor souls bought into the same OSAS Gospel you are teaching.

They thought once saved always saved, also.

The even started to argue with Jesus, when He sentenced them to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.

And by the way, the devil used to be called Lucifer...

Your misunderstanding is you think the person who believes in Christ for salvation, somehow loses his free will and becomes a mindless robot that God makes to stay saved!

For it is God who works in us, both to will and do His good pleasure...

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16

Can you at least see the divine co-operation between the will of God working within the believer, and the will of the believer submitting and doing what The Spirit is leading him to do?

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46

Professing to know God, BUT IN WORKS DENYING HIM!

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God!


JLB

That's a big scripture that you posted..."work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

If OSAS is true, then what in the world is this talking about?

 

[JLB]

Why did only the #4 soil (people) produce fruit? Plants need adequate water and sunlight. But not to much water or the cells burst. Or too much sunlight and they scorch.

Seed germination starts when a seed is provided with water. As seeds imbibe water, they expand and enzymes and food supplies become hydrated. Hydrated enzymes become active and the seed increase its metabolic activities to produce energy for the growth process. In addition, the water causes turgor pressure to increase in the cells and they are able to enlarge. Or they can burst if they imbibe too much water.

The first part of the seedling to emerge from the seed coat is the root. The emergence of the root is typically used as the first indication that a seed is viable.

Matthew 13:6 But when the sun rose it was scorched, and because it did not have enough root, it withered. ... Matthew 13:5 it did not have any depth of soil. ​

Eventually the shoot will also expand and emerge from the seed.

If germination occurs in darkness, root growth slows after the shoot emerges and shoot elongation accelerates. This behavior increases the chance that the seedling will emerge from soil into the light where it will be able to obtain energy from sunlight by photosynthesis.

Once a seedling emerges into the light, the plant undergoes dramatic changes such as turning green and producing leaves. This light-dependent developmental transformation is called photomorphogenesis.

Luke 8:7 And other seed fell in the midst of the thorn plants, and the thorn plants grew up with it and choked it.

Luke 11:34 Your eye is the lamp of the body. When your eye is sincere, your whole body is full of light also. But when it is evil, your body is dark also.
​

In darkness, as would occur for seeds buried in soil, most of the food reserves in the seed are used to provide resources for the seedling to grow enough to reach the light and produce its own food by photosynthesis.

Through gravitropism, the seedlings can send their shoot towards the surface of the soil where it will eventually emerge into light. At the same time.the seedling uses gravity to orient its roots so they grow down into the soil where they can find water and minerals for growth.

Luke 8:6 And other seed fell on the rock, and when it came up, it withered, because it did not have moisture.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who says to you, ‘Give me water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”


Luke 8:11, 15 Now the parable means this: ... bear fruit with patient endurance.
​

Those that don't reproduce the Seed, are cast into the fire and burned...

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

Those that believe for a while, do not reproduce the Seed.

Those that are distracted by the deceitfulness of riches and the desire for other things, do not reproduce the Seed.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Those that are distracted by the deceitfulness of riches and the desire for other things, do not reproduce the Seed.


JLB

Yep. Those guys are. John 15 is a great message.

John 15:5-6 —this one bears much fruit, for apart from me you are not able to do anything.
​

I'm wondering if Jesus really meant what He said here. Apart from Him, we can do nothing, huh? Including lose one of His partners. So much for saved person doing that thing on his own, huh? Apart from Jesus, we can do nothing.

John 15:16 (LEB) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, in order that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. ​

 

[DRS81]

Those that don't reproduce the Seed, are cast into the fire and burned...

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

Those that believe for a while, do not reproduce the Seed.

Those that are distracted by the deceitfulness of riches and the desire for other things, do not reproduce the Seed.


JLB

This is talking about not having a relationship with God.

Relationship and fellowship are not the same.

How many scriptures are you gonna take out of context man.

 

[JLB]

This is talking about not having a relationship with God.

Relationship and fellowship are not the same.

How many scriptures are you gonna take out of context man.

If you will notice that I don't try and convince you what this about, only pointing out the points of the scripture.


5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

...The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit.

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you believe Jesus is referring to unsaved ones, by saying "remain in me'?


Producing fruit is a reference to reproducing the Seed.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

If you will notice that I don't try and convince you what this about, only pointing out the points of the scripture.

But you don't know what the scripture is talking about. That's kind of important, don't you think. Anybody can highlight words and underline stuff in bold.

 

[DRS81]

Do you believe Jesus is referring to unsaved ones, by saying "remain in me'?

Yes, he is referring to unsaved people who do not have a relationship with God. To have a relationship, you must confess that Jesus is God and your savior. Rom 10:9.

 

[JLB]

Yes, he is referring to unsaved people who do not have a relationship with God. To have a relationship, you must confess that Jesus is God and your savior. Rom 10:9.

2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


When your perception describes those who are in Him, as unsaved, then you are surely disqualified to dictate to me what you "think" this scripture is about, IMHO.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


When your perception describes those who are in Him, as unsaved, then you are surely disqualified to dictate to me what you "think" this scripture is about, IMHO.


JLB

Barnes' Notes on the Bible explains it perfectly - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/15-6.htm
If a man, abide not in me - See John 15:4. If a man is not truly united to him by faith, and does not live with a continual sense of his dependence on him. This doubtless refers to those who are professors of religion, but who have never known anything of true and real connection with him.

Is cast forth - See the notes at John 15:2. Also Matthew 8:12; Matthew 22:13.

Is withered - Is dried up. A branch cut off withers. So of a soul unconnected with Christ, however fair it may have appeared. and however flourishing when a profession of religion was first made, yet when it is tried, and it is seen that there was no true grace, everything withers and dies. The zeal languishes, the professed love is gone, prayer is neglected, the sanctuary is forsaken, and the soul becomes like a withered branch reserved for the fire of the last great day. See a beautiful illustration of this in Ezekiel 15:1-8.

 

[JLB]

Barnes' Notes on the Bible explains it perfectly - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/15-6.htm
If a man, abide not in me - See John 15:4. If a man is not truly united to him by faith, and does not live with a continual sense of his dependence on him. This doubtless refers to those who are professors of religion, but who have never known anything of true and real connection with him.

Is cast forth - See the notes at John 15:2. Also Matthew 8:12; Matthew 22:13.

Is withered - Is dried up. A branch cut off withers. So of a soul unconnected with Christ, however fair it may have appeared. and however flourishing when a profession of religion was first made, yet when it is tried, and it is seen that there was no true grace, everything withers and dies. The zeal languishes, the professed love is gone, prayer is neglected, the sanctuary is forsaken, and the soul becomes like a withered branch reserved for the fire of the last great day. See a beautiful illustration of this in Ezekiel 15:1-8.

My question to you was - Do you believe Jesus is referring to unsaved ones, by saying "remain in me'?

You said - Yes, he is referring to unsaved people who do not have a relationship with God.

Remain in Me is a reference to people who are in Christ, which you say is a reference to unsaved people.

Please explain how people who are in Christ are unsaved?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

My question to you was - Do you believe Jesus is referring to unsaved ones, by saying "remain in me'?

You said - Yes, he is referring to unsaved people who do not have a relationship with God.

Remain in Me is a reference to people who are in Christ, which you say is a reference to unsaved people.

Please explain how people who are in Christ are unsaved?


JLB

The scripture about the vine and branch is allegory.

 

[JLB]

The scripture about the vine and branch is allegory.

The truth's that Jesus teaches from using parables is eternal.

Jesus used a natural birth to teach the truth of spiritual birth.

Jesus uses the truth of the vine and the branches, to teach us about our relationship to Him.


5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

People that are In Christ, but do not remain in Him do not produce fruit.

What truth does Jesus teach about those who do not remain in Him?

...he withers! They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This is the exact truth that the parable of the sower teaches.

6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12


Those who are saved, are encouraged to remain in Him so that they produce fruit.

Those who don't fall away.

Those who don't wither.



JLB

 

[DRS81]

Those who are saved, are encouraged to remain in Him so that they produce fruit.

Ok, fair enough. But a born again christian will only produce good fruit because the vine will never forsake them. The vine was never in the nonbeliever to begin with, that's the difference. A born again christian remains in Him because the vine will always remain in the believer. The vine is the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Ok, fair enough. But a born again christian will only produce good fruit because the vine will never forsake them. The vine was never in the nonbeliever to begin with, that's the difference. A born again christian remains in Him because the vine will always remain in the believer. The vine is the Holy Spirit.

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vineyard keeper. 2 Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

Your misunderstanding is you think the person who believes in Christ for salvation, somehow loses his free will and becomes a mindless robot that God makes to stay saved!

Can you at least see the divine co-operation between the will of God working within the believer, and the will of the believer submitting and doing what The Spirit is leading him to do?

The OSAS perspective fully acknowledges that believers remain sentient beings with a will.

For believers, the will of the flesh has been rendered powerless - as our bodies have been circumcised; and we have been joined to Christ's body, we are now new creatures in Him (Col 2:10; see Rom 2:29, Rom 6:6, Php 3:3, 2Cor 5:17); "in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead" (Col 2:11-12 LITV).

If God is the Author of our faith, then He is also the Finisher of our faith, not one without the other (Heb 12:2 LITV). That is why Paul says with the utmost confidence, "being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Php 1:6 LITV; see Eph 2:9). How did Paul know this? Because what God starts, He finishes. If He gives a man faith, and saves him, and gives him new life - then He will surely finish that work of salvation.

We have life in Christ, and that life is eternal; else the Scriptures would say 'We have temporary life in Christ.'