Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

The only reason you're purified is (because) of the holy spirit JLB.

JLB, what sinful work of the law did you do to get the Holy Spirit, believing? Shame on you!

 

[FreeGrace]

Feel 'Free' to explain how branches that are in the root by faith are then cut out of the root because of unbelief?

Glad to. Jesus was using an agricultural metaphor to make a point. Branches that aren't producing fruit are cut off and burned up, because they aren't useful to the tree. There is nothing there to indicate eternal fire. I'm amazing at all the assumption going on.

If a believer wants to be useful to God, he must abide in Christ. But if he grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit, he is not abiding in Christ, nor can he be useful for God.

And remember, scripture shows us that there is no salvation outside of the inheritance, the root, so we know this is not talking about merely losing kingdom privilege.

That is wrong. There are 2 types of inheritance in Scripture. One type refers to salvation; the other refers to rewards for faithful service.

 

[DRS81]

JLB, what sinful work of the law did you do to get the Holy Spirit, believing? Shame on you!

Believing comes through faith. It is that simple. Once you have faith, God will come to you and send his holy spirit to you. ONLY THEN are you made holy before the Lord.

 

[Deborah13]

What you don't understand is the argument is that man all by himself, in and of himself, can't make salvation happen. That hardly means he can't possibly play any part whatsoever in receiving a salvation that can only happen if God grants it.

How does salvation only happening if God grants it make it so that there is absolutely nothing a person can do, or has to do, in order to receive it? You're saying since my cat can't possibly give himself his own bath in the family bathtub that there is no cooperation or will required on his part to get that bath. That is just plain ridiculous. Explain this strange logic.

Is it ridiculous? That cat belongs to their owner and if that cat should need a bath a good, loving owner will see that they get that bath, whether they cooperate or not. Whether that 1200 horse wants his leg doctored or not it's going to get done even if it means knocking him out to do it, if the owner gives one iota about that horse.

The Psalmist in Psalm 23 says that he takes comfort in the rod and the staff. Why would that be?

The Christ is the narrow gate into the kingdom and he is the Sheppard who cares for the sheep in the kingdom. It would seem that if one enters through the narrow gate then they must also leave through the narrow gate that is tended by the Sheppard.
He is the parent that adopted us, so in order to leave Him we would have to run away and return to the orphanage. Can one run away from God, can God lose His child and not know exactly where he is and what he is doing? Does the Sheppard leave His sheep to the wolves?

'His rod and His staff, they comfort Me.' This is what David says, the Lord did not leave him. David was comforted by the knowledge that God would discipline him and him keep safe.

I don't ignore the scriptures that appear to say that one can turn away and possibly lose their salvation but....I don't see where anyone is an example of that in the scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we were arguing that faith is somehow like the work that Paul says can not justify you'd have a point. But that's simply not the argument.

I never said it was. In fact, Paul was clear about it by contrasting faith and works. Believers ARE justified by faith (Rom 5:1).

Believing is NOT a work of the law that OSAS should claim that it is among the works that man does that can not justify.

Uh, OSAS isn't an entity that claims anything. OSAS is a statement of fact, from Scripture. Salvation cannot be lost, or there would be at least 1 verse that plainly says so. Yet, there isn't any verse that says so. All you non-OSASers have is assumption.

The mistake OSAS makes is to think that if we 'do' the believing that means we are trying to earn our own salvation.

No it doesn't. Believing what God promises in NO WAY earns anything. Don't you understand Paul's clear message in Rom 4:4,5?
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Here, Paul has contrasted works, which create a debt owed, with faith, which doesn't. It is God who credits man's faith as righteousness. We didn't earn it. It is, btw, by grace (Eph 2:8).

But please show me where believing is included in the works that a man does that Paul says have no power to justify. Can you at least show me an implication that believing is included in the things that I 'do' that can not justify?

Of course I can't, because none of this is true. Who do you know who believes this?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All of our effort is for naught and is just human good ready to be burned up.

Don't misunderstand. Effort is for naught if it done for the purpose of trying to be justified by that effort, not simply because it is done. This is the distinction that OSAS fails to factor in properly to Paul's grace/works teaching.

Even Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that works through love. But OSAS teaching has taught the church in general to think that works are bad, and that they are only good if they happen all by themselves, and that whether they do or not has no bearing on salvation whatsoever. And to even suggest you might have to lift your arm up yourself to do something is nothing more than a works gospel. Being motivated by faith in Christ does not mean you don't move your own body to do righteous things.

It is serious business, because if the believer thinks that these verses are about maintaining salvation all the "fruit" is from the wrong motivation and from our own efforts and is human good. It will all be burned up. And the believer cannot produce "divine good works."

The mistake you are making is thinking that just because a person knows they have to have a faith that produces actual work and then purposely moves his rear end to produce that work that that means he can't possibly have been motivated by faith in Christ to do that. That is horribly narrow mined thinking at best. Downright judgmental at worse.

 

[gr8grace3]

The "we" must refer to the writer plus his audience, which is saved believing Jews. And he makes that clear from this: after having received the epignosis of gospel doctrine. That cannot refer to an unbeliever, because they have not ever received epignosis gospel doctrine.

Again, one of the problems was that a number of Jewish believers had returned to animal sacrifice and following the Law. And the writer was telling them, look, there is no more sacrifice for sin in the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law by becoming the perfect once and for all sacrifice (Heb 9:12).


I believe this is a clear warning to those believers who have returned to the Law and sacrifices. They will face the mighty hand of God in discipline. And the writer makes clear what kind of discipline God will meter out: scourging (skinning alive with a whip). Of course not literally, but figuratively is sure means that the believer won't be very comfortable.

[QUOTE\]Esthio was used by the Greeks to describe eating but never swallowing the food. Chewing forever, but never swallowing. A reference to the fire that burns forever but does not consume. And that is reserved for a person who has never believed on Christ alone.

You've jumped from chewing without swallowing to an eternal fire. Except that the passage doesn't indicate any of that.


A reference to physical death.[/QUOTE]
I may very well be wrong with how I see vs 26 and 27 at this time. Thank you Brother.

And I agree totally with your interpretation towards the believers in the audience, I just think that the author had some pretenders in the audience as well and vs 27 was directed to the pretenders.

but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Heb 10:27 NASB

 

[FreeGrace]

I am still waiting for one of the OSAS rejectors to explain how Rom 8:38 doesn't include anything that may occur in the future. The ones who believed in Luke 8:13 didn't know that after "a while", they would cease to believe.

So, given a clear example by Jesus, how does Rom 8:38 not apply even to those who lose faith, for whatever reason?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it ridiculous? That cat belongs to their owner....

LOL! I got this far and thought, "when am I going to stop using analogies that people will only stretch beyond reason to suit their own desire?"

Like I say, folks. Non-OSAS has NOTHING to lose if one lives according to it and it turns out to be wrong in the end. But OSAS has EVERYTHING to lose if one lives according to it and it is found to be wrong.

Why are so many bent on gambling their very eternities over this? It seems we have a lot of gamblers in the house today, lol.

 

[FreeGrace]

You've jumped from chewing without swallowing to an eternal fire. Except that the passage doesn't indicate any of that.

I was responding to a post (don't know who) who did that. And I noted that the verse didn't indicate such a leap.

I may very well be wrong with how I see vs 26 and 27 at this time. Thank you Brother.

And I agree totally with your interpretation towards the believers in the audience, I just think that the author had some pretenders in the audience as well and vs 27 was directed to the pretenders.

but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Heb 10:27 NASB

Seems to me the author was as concerned about how his audience was living as James was about his audience. I think they both were bothered by problems of each audience. The audience in Hebrews had been turning back to the Law and sacrifice, while James' concern was believers who weren't demonstrating their faith by works/deeds.

 

[Deborah13]

Why have any fear in regard to what you say you had absolutely nothing to do with happening, and continue to have absolutely nothing to do with happening? The fear Paul talks about is completely misplaced if what you say about predestination is correct. Think about it.

...and remember, we know he's not just talking about kingdom privilege. Revelation shows us there is no salvation outside of the kingdom, only the permanent place of torment for the unholy.

Obviously you have never needed to be severely disciplined by God or you would understand that even though one knows that they are saved they still 'fear' God's discipline and have a respectful and honoring attitude. It's NOT all about one's ultimate salvation, it's about living now and glorifying God Now, and the shame and guilt when we fail to honor God and instead dishonor His name. The shame of knowing that there were things God would have had you do for others and you failed to be the person He created you to be.
I believe you are a saved man. Just go ahead, grieve the Holy Spirit and see what the Lord does to you. He will win. He does not forsake His children.
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am still waiting for one of the OSAS rejectors to explain how Rom 8:38 doesn't include anything that may occur in the future.

We know from the whole counsel of God that turning to unbelief is not listed as one of the things that can not rob us of the love of God in salvation because it isn't one of those things.

Your interpretation of the passage simply contradicts too many other scriptures that talk about loss of salvation because of contempt for the forgiveness of God in Christ.

 

[DRS81]

FreeGrace Jethro's been here since 2011 and JLB 2012. If it is taking them years to figure this out, then I dunno.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe you are a saved man. Just go ahead, grieve the Holy Spirit and see what the Lord does to you. He will win. He does not forsake His children.
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me."

Did it ever occur to you that's because my faith is firm, not simply because I have faith?

Think about it, Deborah. This is what we've been saying......and what Jesus taught.

 

[Danus]

I am free to characterize and summarize what your doctrine believes. You are free to correct it, or insist that's not what it really is about if you want. That's how forums work. OSAS is doing that to me. I just simply correct the error of the judgment being made....using scripture.

I suppose, but your not characterizing what I understand. You keep calling it OSAS, chipping it up, and mixing in your theology with it to make it seem look like something it's not so you can argue it better from your position. (Straw man) make it not worth my time, because you really don't care. You're not really seeking any answer. JLB was asking a question and somehow you want to attack my answer to him, but it's not even my answer LOL. It's something else made to look like something similar to my answer.

So, I'll leave you with this. My theological biblical overarching, all encompassing understanding of SALVATION so we are clear.

1. All of mankind is FULLY and COMPLETELY fallen from righteousness and has absolutely no hope on his own of being right with God.

2. God is totally righteous.

3. All of mankind is by nature "unsaved" from Gods judgment.

4. God ordains the means of salvation by taking on the sins of mankind through the finished work of Christ on the cross.

5. God preordains who will be saved, just as He did by the means, He also preordains who will be saved.

6. What God does NOT do is preordain who will NOT be saved. Mankind does that. So no one is blaming God for the unsaved, only the saved. The fault of those being saved is God, God is totally and completely responsible for the salvation of anyone, and mankind is totally and completely at fault for the FALL.

There you go. If you are not saved it's not Gods fault. It's your own. If you are saved it's not your doing, it's Gods...only. So the title of this thread is "Loosing salvation after getting saved"....and my response to that is, You can't loose what you never had, nor can you gain what you don't have. Those who aren't saved are not looking for salvation, They could care less. They want nothing to do with God, and they don't care about any of this, but most would agree that they determine their own destiny. Interestingly so to those who believe they chose their own salvation. If you feel you chose or accepted or that you did something to "effect" God to save you then your destiny lie with what YOU do, and if your destiny lies with what you do, then you can't give any credit to God can you? After all you saved yourself, and your salvation is all about you and what you do. So you tell me, where does Christ Jesus "FIT" into your plan of salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

FreeGrace Jethro's been here since 2011 and JLB 2012. If it is taking them years to figure this out, then I dunno.

Boo! Stop stooping to insults.

If you're frustrated that you can't prove us wrong it's better that you not say anything at all.

 

[DRS81]

Boo! Stop stooping to insults.

If you're frustrated that you can't prove us wrong it's better that you not say anything at all.

But we have proved you wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

LOL! I got this far and thought, "when am I going to stop using analogies that people will only stretch beyond reason to suit their own desire?"

Like I say, folks. Non-OSAS has NOTHING to lose if one lives according to it and it turns out to be wrong in the end.

Actually, you have MUCH to lose by being wrong. You've insulted the very grace of God, and His promise of eternal security. That won't lose you salvation, but I'm sure the embarrassment will not be very comfortable.

We are told to "be diligent (by studying) to show ourselves to be approved by God, a workman who is not ashamed, but rightly divides the word of truth." If you are wrong, this verse indicates that you won't be approved by God. Nothing about loss of salvation, but you will be ashamed at His coming (1 Jn 2:28).

But OSAS has EVERYTHING to lose if one lives according to it and it is found to be wrong.

Since God has promised eternal life to the one who has believed, it isn't wrong.

Why are so many bent on gambling their very eternities over this? It seems we have a lot of gamblers in the house today, lol.

When believing the word of God, there is no gamble.

The anti-OSASers cannot provide any verse that tells me that salvation can be lost. Yet y'all believe it can. And that is based only on assumptions about verses that do NOT say what you believe and claim.

You've put the "burden" of salvation upon yourselves, not on Christ. None of you know the future and what it holds. Neither did the second soil. They believed "for a while", but in the future of the date they believed, they ceased to believe, because of temptations.

No one can prophesy the future and whether or not they will continue to believe. No one. As much as we who believe may think our faith will not fail, none of us has any ability to know the future. It's all just words.

So, does Rom 8:38 exclude loss of faith in the future? If so, please exegete the passage to prove that v.38 does not include "loss of faith" in "things future". Thank you.

 

[gr8grace3]

LOL! I got this far and thought, "when am I going to stop using analogies that people will only stretch beyond reason to suit their own desire?"

Like I say, folks. Non-OSAS has NOTHING to lose if one lives according to it and it turns out to be wrong in the end. But OSAS has EVERYTHING to lose if one lives according to it and it is found to be wrong.

Why are so many bent on gambling their very eternities over this? It seems we have a lot of gamblers in the house today, lol.

You have rewards and Blessings to lose Jethro. Possibly SHAME at the judgement seat of Christ. We are to reveal Gods Grace, and Losing salvation does not reveal his Grace.

Eternal security and living in it is walking in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit. And Living the Christian way of life as God intended believers to live.

Or do you mean that grace and eternal security teaches to live like hell?

There are to many people in the NON OSAS camp that do not have salvation to lose because they have never believed on Christ alone for their salvation. They have been duped into believing it is Christ PLUS something.

 

[jonahmano]

No what I'm saying is that salvation is not done by our works, it is done by what Jesus did on the cross. It is finished!

Work? What do you mean by work? Is praying, meditating the bible, fellowship work? That's what grace preachers preach, the finished work. You don't have to do anything but simply sit. Was Christ died on the cross just that we might just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and think that we are saved and live a life every common man lives, work, eat be merry, go to a movie, do some business and never give time for God but just earn, earn and earn and one final day you are in heaven because it's finished work by Christ Jesus????