Bible Study Lukewarm Christians

[Razeontherock]

And thus should be understood as it had meaning to those to whom it was addressed.


Lycus (or not)

They are like us, even if that wasn't the name of their river, lol

 

[ezra]

I discovered that a lukewarm Christian is somebody who claims to be a Christian but their actions speak differently

actually there saved but not active watch this clip

 

[ezra]

I think much of Christianity today is lukewarm. We rest on the gospel of grace thinking we claim the title Christian so all is well and we're good to go and we treat works like a disease with fear of being labeled a legalist when the truth is a saved Christian should desire to do the works worthy of the salvation that has been gifted even though we can't possibly fulfill such a task.

Hebrews 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. kjv reads slip

 

[JohnDB]

Pamukkale springs (just outside of ancient Heiropolis)

As the river goes it is from snowmelt...(really cold) and then feeds the farms by extensive irrigation.
Laodicea couldn't access the river because of the steep bank. It's aquaduct instead went a few kilometers away to another spring. That spring (as most in volcanic active areas) was heavily laden with minerals. Their abandoned pipes are seen sometimes almost choked closed with minerals.

 

[Razeontherock]

What a cool picture! Each of those blue, glassy surfaces is water?

 

[JohnDB]

What a cool picture! Each of those blue, glassy surfaces is water?

Yes, those are hot spring pools.
The water is heavily mineralized...
Geothermal activity heats and brings the water to the surface.
I grew up in Idaho where there are a few in a national park. I went to them. It's kinda neat to sit in bathtub warm water outside in the middle of a forest.
Think Yellowstone National Park... some of those are way too hot...some mix with cooler water and are great for bathing. (Which is what we had in Idaho)


The thing is that Jesus always had a way of saying things using poetry or visual pictures that stick in your head.

Heiropolis was famous for having the largest public baths that we're great for arthritis suffering and sore muscles and whatever.
The cold river irrigating farms must have been a really vivid picture too.

The mustard seeds which look like banana seeds coming from a thick bush/tree at least 10 feet tall covered in little yellow seed pods.
The visual contrast and poetry would stick.

But where we have carefully preserved the words we haven't preserved the imagery. So it seems like new information. And I look to change this.
Can't do it all at once...but slowly and carefully I'll share as time and subjects come about.

 

[chessman]

Pamukkale springs (just outside of ancient Heiropolis)

If you look closely, down in the lower left, is Luke warming.

On a serious note:

http://www.biblelandhistory.com/turkey/laodicea.html

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes, those are hot spring pools.
The water is heavily mineralized...
Geothermal activity heats and brings the water to the surface.
I grew up in Idaho where there are a few in a national park. I went to them. It's kinda neat to sit in bathtub warm water outside in the middle of a forest.
Think Yellowstone National Park... some of those are way too hot...some mix with cooler water and are great for bathing. (Which is what we had in Idaho)


The thing is that Jesus always had a way of saying things using poetry or visual pictures that stick in your head.

Heiropolis was famous for having the largest public baths that we're great for arthritis suffering and sore muscles and whatever.
The cold river irrigating farms must have been a really vivid picture too.

The mustard seeds which look like banana seeds coming from a thick bush/tree at least 10 feet tall covered in little yellow seed pods.
The visual contrast and poetry would stick.

But where we have carefully preserved the words we haven't preserved the imagery. So it seems like new information. And I look to change this.
Can't do it all at once...but slowly and carefully I'll share as time and subjects come about.

Yup, context is king!

On a completely different tangent - you grew up in Idaho? I'm jealous. Ever ski Schweitzer?

 

[KevinK]

I discovered that a lukewarm Christian is somebody who claims to be a Christian but their actions speak differently.

Yes, that's true but I don't think lukewarm Christianity is about duplicity or deceptiveness per se. It's more about being weak in your beliefs and subsequently, your actions.

A typical example is someone who claims to follow the Lord, but casually begins sinning 10 minutes after returning from church service. They rarely read Scripture, and spend most of their free time listening to secular music. They're too embarassed to talk about Jesus to others, even though they know that evangelism is a requirement. This is a person who is lukewarm, not a total unbeliever or flagrant sinner, but not "on fire" for their belief either.

 

[chessman]

This is a person who is lukewarm, not a total unbeliever or flagrant sinner, but not "on fire" for their belief either.

And a person being “cold” is what then?

 

[KevinK]

And a person being “cold” is what then?

Well, I guess that would be a Christian who does believe in Christ (by definition), but who does absolutely nothing to live their faith. If you ask them, they say they're Christian, but they live a completely secular life.

This is just how I've always seen this term being used.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Yes, that's true but I don't think lukewarm Christianity is about duplicity or deceptiveness per se. It's more about being weak in your beliefs and subsequently, your actions.

A typical example is someone who claims to follow the Lord, but casually begins sinning 10 minutes after returning from church service. They rarely read Scripture, and spend most of their free time listening to secular music. They're too embarassed to talk about Jesus to others, even though they know that evangelism is a requirement. This is a person who is lukewarm, not a total unbeliever or flagrant sinner, but not "on fire" for their belief either.

Well, I read my Bible every night but although I mostly listen to secular music,(I do like a lot of contemporary Christian music as well though) I try my best not to sin. And I'm not embarrassed to discuss my faith, I just save certain times and places for it since it's a pretty hot topic just like politics and I really don't want to get into arguments with people. Does that mean I still fit your definition of lukewarm?

 

[KevinK]

You don't strike me as a lukewarm Christian, no, not at all.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

You don't strike me as a lukewarm Christian, no, not at all.

Well that's really good to know then and a major relief! Thanks.

 

[chessman]

Well, I guess that would be a Christian who does believe in Christ (by definition), but who does absolutely nothing to live their faith.

It seems that the message to Laodicea was for their works to be cold (or hot). How does your guess square with the Text then?

I know your works: that you are neither cold nor hot. O-that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about-to spew you out of My mouth.​

Revelation 3:15-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 3:15-16&version=DLNT

Do you also then believe it is Jesus’s desire that the Laodicean Christians’ works do absolutely nothing to live their faith?

 

[KevinK]

Well, I wouldn't put it that way. I surely can't speak for Jesus, but my guess is that in matters of faith, extremes are always things you can work with, while middle-of-the-road there's nothing to "grab" on to.

How often have we heard stories of the convicted career criminal who turns to the Lord on their walk to the gallows, perhaps after spending the night before reading a Bible for the first time? Their intensity, though negative at first, can be redirected in a positive manner. Maybe it's easier to turn a sinner into a saint, than a wishy-washy lukewarmer, because there's nothing to transform.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Luke 15:7

 

[chessman]

Well, I wouldn't put it that way. I surely can't speak for Jesus,

We can read and indeed come to an understanding of what the Text says, however. There’s no need to guess about it. Again, the message Christ sent to the Laodicean Christians was;

15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.​

Revelation 3:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 3:15&version=NASB

So given your view of what cold works meant (“a Christian who does believe in Christ (by definition), but who does absolutely nothing to live their faith”), why did Jesus wish for them to have cold works, if cold works means doing nothing?

Maybe it's easier to turn a sinner into a saint, than a wishy-washy lukewarmer, because there's nothing to transform.

That’s not really what the passage says, however. He’s wishing to transform their works into either being cold or hot.

Quite literally, Christ to them; “I wish that you were cold ...”

 

[KevinK]

That’s not really what the passage says, however. He’s wishing to transform their works into either being cold or hot.

That is what the passage says. He knows them by their works, and it is they that are lukewarm, and it is them he wishes to transform.

15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

 

[chessman]

That is what the passage says.

My comment was specifically about this portion of your answer (requoted below):

“Maybe it's easier to turn a sinner into a saint, than a wishy-washy lukewarmer, because there's nothing to transform.”

I’m not seeing how you could even think that, given the fact Christ wishes their works are transformed into cold (or hot) works.