Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Man Conceived Religions

My dictionary says that Gehenna is hell. What do you think that it means?
Gehenna is a judgment. In Jesus' day it was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalems walls, refuse, dead animals, even bodies of criminals were cast into it. Like many of our dumps accelerants were used to burn the refuse. Worms and maggots were present at all times. Jesus used that scenario to those he spoke to for understanding. Those who receive the judgment of gehenna will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Hell on the other hand comes from Sheol and Hades and is simply the abode of the dead, whereas Gehenna is represented by the lake of fire, which is defined as the second death Bob.
 
Gehenna is a judgment. In Jesus' day it was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalems walls, refuse, dead animals, even bodies of criminals were cast into it. Like many of our dumps accelerants were used to burn the refuse. Worms and maggots were present at all times. Jesus used that scenario to those he spoke to for understanding. Those who receive the judgment of gehenna will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Hell on the other hand comes from Sheol and Hades and is simply the abode of the dead, whereas Gehenna is represented by the lake of fire, which is defined as the second death Bob.
Nope, Gehenna is hell. A place of torment. It is also described as a dump where garbage is burned. Shoel is a place under the earth where departed spirits go. Hades is also hell, the underground kingdom of the dead. Source, Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary.
 
Nope, Gehenna is hell. A place of torment. It is also described as a dump where garbage is burned. Shoel is a place under the earth where departed spirits go. Hades is also hell, the underground kingdom of the dead. Source, Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary.
Hades is the NT equivalent of Sheol and refers simply to the grave, or as you say, the place "where departed spirits go." You are correct that Gehenna is hell and the place of torment; which makes it the lake of fire, the final destination of unbelievers.
 
Hades is the NT equivalent of Sheol and refers simply to the grave, or as you say, the place "where departed spirits go." You are correct that Gehenna is hell and the place of torment; which makes it the lake of fire, the final destination of unbelievers.
It was not God's plan that people would Go to hell, 2 Peter 3:9. This is why he provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. If anyone winds up in hell it will be because they did not accept God's great free gift of salvation, Ephesians 2:8.
 
Nope, Gehenna is hell. A place of torment. It is also described as a dump where garbage is burned. Shoel is a place under the earth where departed spirits go. Hades is also hell, the underground kingdom of the dead. Source, Funk & Wagnalls Dictionary.
Thankfully God defines the lake of fire as being the second death, or many of us would actually believe He is going to torture people eternally for even minor offenses they committed in their short lifetime. I hope you are wrong sir, but if you arent, I will be standing right beside you in torment, cursing god for the day he ever came into being.
 
Thankfully God defines the lake of fire as being the second death, or many of us would actually believe He is going to torture people eternally for even minor offenses they committed in their short lifetime. I hope you are wrong sir, but if you arent, I will be standing right beside you in torment, cursing god for the day he ever came into being.
The only ones that are going to hell are those that are trying to save themselves by the works of the law, Romans 3:20. Christians are not under the law, nor are they subject to it, Romans 6:15. I will not be going to hell because my representative savior is in heaven at the right hand of God, Hebrews 1:3.
 
Thankfully God defines the lake of fire as being the second death, or many of us would actually believe He is going to torture people eternally for even minor offenses they committed in their short lifetime. I hope you are wrong sir, but if you arent, I will be standing right beside you in torment, cursing god for the day he ever came into being.
The second death is where the first Death and Hades are thrown into. The first death was physical, separating the soul from the body. It was, of course, a result of the Fall. However, that also resulted in man's separation and alienation from God. Christ's death and resurrection provided the means for reconciliation and relationship with God. The second death, then, could very well be where body and soul aren't annihilated, but separated from God for eternity.

That going to hell for eternity is "for even minor offenses they committed in their short lifetime" is not accurate. They are judged both on works and on whether or not their name is in the book of life (Rev 20:12, 15), and so go to hell for rejecting Christ and living in rebellion to God. The idea that God "is going to torture people eternally" is also not correct and seems to be typically used as rhetoric to dismiss the idea of people in hell for eternity. It is my opinion that there is a lack of understanding about what happens in hell. Consider:

Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

I think at the judgement seat all things will become clear--the clear evidence for the existence of God, the pursuit by God, and love of God, all rejected for the purpose of serving self and seeking pleasure--and the unbeliever will know that they got what they deserved.

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?

Another thing to consider, taken from an article in The Apologetics Study Bible, written by J. P. Moreland, and titled "Does the Bible Teach Annihilationism?":

"Does the Bible teach that the unsaved will suffer in hell for only a time and then be annihilated? Some argue from Scripture that the flames in hell are literal and point out the flames destroy whatever they burn. Further, they claim that infinitely long punishment is disproportionate to a finite life of sin. Thus extinction is morally preferable to everlasting punishment.

The scriptural argument is weak. Clear texts whose explicit intent is to teach the extent of the afterlife overtly compare the everlasting conscious life of the saved and the unsaved (Dn 12:2; Mt 25:41,46). Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely figures of speech for judgment (cp. Heb 12:29; 2 Th 1:8). Otherwise, contradictions about hell are apparent (for example, it is dark despite being filled with flames).

The moral argument fails as well. For one thing, the severity of a crime is not a function of the time it takes to commit it. Thus rejection of the mercy of an infinite God could appropriately warrant an unending, conscious separation from God. Further, everlasting hell is morally superior to annihilation. That becomes evident from the following consideration.

Regarding the end of life, sanctity-of-life advocates reject active euthanasia (the intentional killing of a patient), while the quality-of-life advocates embrace it. In the sanctity-of-life view, one gets one's value, not from the quality of one's life, but from the sheer fact that one exists in God's image. The quality-of-life advocates see the value of human life in its quality; life is not inherently valuable. Thus the sanctity-of-life position has a higher, not a lower, moral regard for the dignity of human life.

The traditional and annihilationist views about hell are expressions, respectively, of the sanctity-of-life and quality-of-life ethical standpoints. After all, the grounds that God would have for annihilating someone would be the low quality of life in hell. If a person will not receive salvation, and if God will not extinguish one made in His image because He values life, then God's alternative is quarantine, and hell is certainly that. Thus the tradition view, being a sanctity-of-life and not a quality-of-life position, is morally superior to annihilationism." (p. 1292)

I think that is a very strong argument.
 
It was not God's plan that people would Go to hell, 2 Peter 3:9.
Hmmm, the all mighty and all knowing got one wrong? Interesting. (sarcasm)
  • “having been predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will” (Ephesians 1:11) Interesting, if your correct this verse needs updating (sarcasm)
  • Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning, And from ancient times the things which have not [yet] been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will do all that pleases Me and fulfills My purpose,’ Interesting, if your correct this verse needs updating (sarcasm)
  • Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places”
  • Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand— Interesting, if your correct this verse needs updating (sarcasm)

This is why he provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.
Seeing that faith cometh by hearing of Christ and leads to salvation and seeing billions are death having never heard of Christ one must question your definition of God "provided salvation for everyone".

If anyone winds up in hell it will be because they did not accept God's great free gift of salvation, Ephesians 2:8.
Agreed ... and billions are dead who never heard of Christ and therefore were unable to accept a gift as it was never presented to them.
 
Thankfully God defines the lake of fire as being the second death, or many of us would actually believe He is going to torture people eternally for even minor offenses they committed in their short lifetime. I hope you are wrong sir, but if you arent, I will be standing right beside you in torment, cursing god for the day he ever came into being.
Hmmm, careful what you wish for.
 
The only ones that are going to hell are those that are trying to save themselves by the works of the law, Romans 3:20. Christians are not under the law, nor are they subject to it, Romans 6:15. I will not be going to hell because my representative savior is in heaven at the right hand of God, Hebrews 1:3.
Actually Bob, everyone goes to hell that dies since it is the abode of the dead. Were you aware that Jesus was no exception? Are you aware that all will be resurrected from it? Now I will say, if the first resurrection has occurred, and those of my faith believes it has, then those anointed ones who died after that were changed instantly and taken to heaven, but they are very few in number sir.
 
The second death is where the first Death and Hades are thrown into. The first death was physical, separating the soul from the body. It was, of course, a result of the Fall. However, that also resulted in man's separation and alienation from God. Christ's death and resurrection provided the means for reconciliation and relationship with God. The second death, then, could very well be where body and soul aren't annihilated, but separated from God for eternity.

That going to hell for eternity is "for even minor offenses they committed in their short lifetime" is not accurate. They are judged both on works and on whether or not their name is in the book of life (Rev 20:12, 15), and so go to hell for rejecting Christ and living in rebellion to God. The idea that God "is going to torture people eternally" is also not correct and seems to be typically used as rhetoric to dismiss the idea of people in hell for eternity. It is my opinion that there is a lack of understanding about what happens in hell. Consider:

Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I do not agree with the seemingly common idea that there is going to be eternal physical torment in the form of some sort of torture that causes pain. It seems that while the Bible teaches the punishment of being in hell is eternal, any physical punishment is temporary, although temporary compared to eternity could still be a very long time, and varies in severity from person to person. This is consistent with Paul stating in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that believers will receive different levels of rewards. Different levels of punishment for unbelievers, different levels of reward for believers.

Therefore, any concept of an eternal hell for unbelievers needs to take into account that there seems to be limited physical punishment. Torment can be psychological, based on regret, depression, aloneness and separation, etc. Any "eternal torment" then, would likely be mental anguish over what is instead of what could have and should have been. Would it not be absolutely gut-wrenching to be in hell, with all physical punishment having ceased, and realize exactly where you went wrong and why, how you justified sin and unbelief, and to know what you have missed out on, for eternity?

I think at the judgement seat all things will become clear--the clear evidence for the existence of God, the pursuit by God, and love of God, all rejected for the purpose of serving self and seeking pleasure--and the unbeliever will know that they got what they deserved.

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?

Another thing to consider, taken from an article in The Apologetics Study Bible, written by J. P. Moreland, and titled "Does the Bible Teach Annihilationism?":

"Does the Bible teach that the unsaved will suffer in hell for only a time and then be annihilated? Some argue from Scripture that the flames in hell are literal and point out the flames destroy whatever they burn. Further, they claim that infinitely long punishment is disproportionate to a finite life of sin. Thus extinction is morally preferable to everlasting punishment.

The scriptural argument is weak. Clear texts whose explicit intent is to teach the extent of the afterlife overtly compare the everlasting conscious life of the saved and the unsaved (Dn 12:2; Mt 25:41,46). Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely figures of speech for judgment (cp. Heb 12:29; 2 Th 1:8). Otherwise, contradictions about hell are apparent (for example, it is dark despite being filled with flames).

The moral argument fails as well. For one thing, the severity of a crime is not a function of the time it takes to commit it. Thus rejection of the mercy of an infinite God could appropriately warrant an unending, conscious separation from God. Further, everlasting hell is morally superior to annihilation. That becomes evident from the following consideration.

Regarding the end of life, sanctity-of-life advocates reject active euthanasia (the intentional killing of a patient), while the quality-of-life advocates embrace it. In the sanctity-of-life view, one gets one's value, not from the quality of one's life, but from the sheer fact that one exists in God's image. The quality-of-life advocates see the value of human life in its quality; life is not inherently valuable. Thus the sanctity-of-life position has a higher, not a lower, moral regard for the dignity of human life.

The traditional and annihilationist views about hell are expressions, respectively, of the sanctity-of-life and quality-of-life ethical standpoints. After all, the grounds that God would have for annihilating someone would be the low quality of life in hell. If a person will not receive salvation, and if God will not extinguish one made in His image because He values life, then God's alternative is quarantine, and hell is certainly that. Thus the tradition view, being a sanctity-of-life and not a quality-of-life position, is morally superior to annihilationism." (p. 1292)

I think that is a very strong argument.
Hi Free, I started to reply to some of the comments, but realized that since we have many similar understandings about hell, I thought it might be better just to identify what hell is. Would you like to discuss it sir? If you do let me ask you some of the same questions I asked another poster:
I assume you would like to know what hell is, since you have done research on it, likely because what people say God is going to do to others does not seem like Justice or out of Love either.

There are 4 words that some versions of the Bible translate hell. Let's start with the 2 most used, they are sheol in Hebrew, and hades in Greek.

1. How many times do they occur in the Bible?

2. How are they translated into English?

3. Are they the same place?

4. How are they defined?

5. With answering those questions, what is your conclusion of what kind of place they are Free?

If you are having trouble finding the answers, the site Blue Letter Bible can assist you sir.
 
I sure hope I have the strength to stand for right. Time will tell how evil God is, and I think we are very near to finding out.
God is not evil. Where did you get that idea? God is holy, just and righteous in all that he does. God loves us and sent his Son Jesus Christ into the world to save us, John 3:16. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. But it must be received, or it is not yours. John 1:12.
 
Hi Free, I started to reply to some of the comments, but realized that since we have many similar understandings about hell, I thought it might be better just to identify what hell is. Would you like to discuss it sir? If you do let me ask you some of the same questions I asked another poster:
I assume you would like to know what hell is, since you have done research on it,
I have a good idea of what hell is.

likely because what people say God is going to do to others does not seem like Justice or out of Love either.
What have I said that God is going to do? As my post shows, it is both justice and love. For God to annihilate people would undermine the idea that we have intrinsic value as beings created in his image. That would be unloving and, depending on how you answer my questions, unjust for a lot of people.

There are 4 words that some versions of the Bible translate hell. Let's start with the 2 most used, they are sheol in Hebrew, and hades in Greek.

1. How many times do they occur in the Bible?
Sheol: 67
Hades: 10

2. How are they translated into English?
Depends on the version. In the ESV, Sheol is most often left as "Sheol" (65 times) but translated as "grave" once as "pit" once. Hades stays as is 9 times and translated as "hell" once (Matt 16:18). In the NASB, both Sheol and Hades stay as it throughout.

3. Are they the same place?
Yes.

4. How are they defined?
Is this not the same as question 2?

5. With answering those questions, what is your conclusion of what kind of place they are Free?
The abode of departed souls, as I have stated already.

Hell is just an English word used for final destination of the unrighteous, which isn't Hades. I would appreciate it if you answered the two questions I asked:

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?
 
I have a good idea of what hell is.


What have I said that God is going to do? As my post shows, it is both justice and love. For God to annihilate people would undermine the idea that we have intrinsic value as beings created in his image. That would be unloving and, depending on how you answer my questions, unjust for a lot of people.


Sheol: 67
Hades: 10


Depends on the version. In the ESV, Sheol is most often left as "Sheol" (65 times) but translated as "grave" once as "pit" once. Hades stays as is 9 times and translated as "hell" once (Matt 16:18). In the NASB, both Sheol and Hades stay as it throughout.


Yes.


Is this not the same as question 2?


The abode of departed souls, as I have stated already.

Hell is just an English word used for final destination of the unrighteous, which isn't Hades. I would appreciate it if you answered the two questions I asked:

One problem with annihilationism, which it seems you believe, is that it is unjust. Those very same people that you say committed minor offenses suffer the same punishment as people like Hitler and Stalin. In order for it to be just, there must be punishment that fits the offense, don't you agree? When does that happen?
No one will be going to hell because of their sins. People will be going to hell because they don't believe. They don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for them, nor do they believe that Jesus atoned for their sins. They cannot trust and believe in Jesus for their salvation, instead they have become religious and are trying to save themselves by their works and obedience to the law.
 
No one will be going to hell because of their sins. People will be going to hell because they don't believe.
I have already stated this.

They don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for them, nor do they believe that Jesus atoned for their sins. They cannot trust and believe in Jesus for their salvation, instead they have become religious and are trying to save themselves by their works and obedience to the law.
That is some people, yes.
 
I have already stated this.


That is some people, yes.
I would say that 90% of those that profess Christ as their savior are trying to save themselves by their works and their obedience to the law. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. What most have found is religion.
 
I would say that 90% of those that profess Christ as their savior are trying to save themselves by their works and their obedience to the law. Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.
While that may be true, we are still to be obedient to the commands of Christ, which have also worked themselves out into the rules and commands for believers, for proper Christian belief and living. Antinomianism is not a biblical position.

What most have found is religion.
Christianity is a religion.
 
While that may be true, we are still to be obedient to the commands of Christ, which have also worked themselves out into the rules and commands for believers, for proper Christian belief and living. Antinomianism is not a biblical position.


Christianity is a religion.
We are obedient because of the Holy Spirit, given to us by God. We are in Christ, who has fulfilled the law. We are innocent of any and all violations because of His sacrifice, which paid the penalty for all sin.

antinomianism, (Greek anti, “against”; nomos, “law”),

definition #1: doctrine according to which Christians are freed by grace from the necessity of obeying the Mosaic Law. Antinomians reject the very notion of obedience as legalistic; to us the good life flows from the inner working of the Holy Spirit.

definition #2: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace, the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation

Both of these definitions show that antinomianism is at the very heart of true Christianity.
 
Back
Top