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Man Conceived Religions

theSeriousOne said:
Insincerity is allowed! "This is not a court of law. It is a discussion."
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Do you really think that insincerity is appropriate Christian behavior? "All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." Matthew 5:37
 
Robert Pate said:
Not really. The reason is that God is a God of judgment. The Bible is full of God's judgment. The lake of fire is where the souls of the lost will be tormented. I don't like the idea of eternal suffering, but the Bible teaches it. Mark 9:43-48.
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Wow! I have some more great news for you sir, in both places where the lake of fire is mentioned, God chose to define it. It means the second death. In other words, they are gone. You certainly cannot torment/torture death nor hell, yet Rev 21:4 openly stated death would be no more correct, since death is no more, there was no more need for hell correct? Hence why death and hell were cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed in the second death, permanently gone forever.

The misunderstanding lies in the English translation of the word gehenna sir, research it deeper, and think of how those who Jesus said it to would understand his words. I would be more than happy to expound on that topic if you like Bob.
 
wondering said:
Yes, some identifiers would be good.

But let's look at Matthew 7.

Matthew 7:19-23
19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Verse 19 Jesus spoke about wood being cut down and burned....as if it didn't have any purpose.
Verse 20 We can know THEM (followers of Jesus) by their fruits (and false prophets)
Verse 21 It's not enough to call LORD, LORD, but we must also do the will of God to enter heaven.
Verse 23 Jesus never knew them, because they PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS. (they did not obey Him).

Verse 23 tells us who verse 21 (the one you feel is most important) will enter into heaven.

I'm not sure yet if you agree...
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It is great you break down the Scriptures and greatly aids in understanding. You are apsolutely correct the key to those who inherit the Kingdom is in verse 21, and you hit the nail on the head about what it takes as well, obedience.

Many believe belief in Christ alone will save you. In this passage we have not only belief but exemplary belief in Jesus, but like you stated they practiced lawlessness. They openly stated in their shock that they had prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons in his name, and performed many miracles, something on my best day has not happened to me, but Jesus did not accept them. Why? Because like many they chose to worship God in their own way, rather than following Jesus as their model 1 Pet 2:21.

Another thing we learn from verse 21 as well, Jesus stated they were not doing the will of his Father, and is not the Father God? In fact isn't He the God Jesus taught us to worship and serve exclusively Mat 4:10? Those who actually do God's will are stated as the ones who truly love Him as seen by this passage: 1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Salvation is dependent upon our obedience to God, worshipping Him with spirit and truth. Only those who observe His laws will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Once again it is great speaking with you Wonder. Bob
 
Highway54 said:
It is great you break down the Scriptures and greatly aids in understanding. You are apsolutely correct the key to those who inherit the Kingdom is in verse 21, and you hit the nail on the head about what it takes as well, obedience.

Many believe belief in Christ alone will save you. In this passage we have not only belief but exemplary belief in Jesus, but like you stated they practiced lawlessness. They openly stated in their shock that they had prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons in his name, and performed many miracles, something on my best day has not happened to me, but Jesus did not accept them. Why? Because like many they chose to worship God in their own way, rather than following Jesus as their model 1 Pet 2:21.

Another thing we learn from verse 21 as well, Jesus stated they were not doing the will of his Father, and is not the Father God? In fact isn't He the God Jesus taught us to worship and serve exclusively Mat 4:10? Those who actually do God's will are stated as the ones who truly love Him as seen by this passage: 1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Salvation is dependent upon our obedience to God, worshipping Him with spirit and truth. Only those who observe His laws will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Once again it is great speaking with you Wonder. Bob
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If, as you claim, that only those who observe His laws will inherit the Kingdom of God, then a) Paul is wrong in Romans 7 and elsewhere, and b) the OT Jews are saved. Your theology is wrong.
 
jaybo said:
If, as you claim, that only those who observe His laws will inherit the Kingdom of God, then a) Paul is wrong in Romans 7 and elsewhere, and b) the OT Jews are saved. Your theology is wrong.
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Paul was personally chosen by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations. His recorded writings are inspired of God, in other words God's words. He was never wrong sir, only understanding of what he said can be wrong.

I am not comprehending what you are stating Jay, are you saying that only the OT Jews are saved, or that they are not? Please clarify what you mean sir.

Jesus gave those words at Mat 7:21 that state that those doing the will of God will inherit the Kingdom, it seems simple to me, but perhaps you think I misinterpreted what he was saying. If that is the case, what is your understanding of what Jesus meant?
 
Highway54 said:
Paul was personally chosen by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations. His recorded writings are inspired of God, in other words God's words. He was never wrong sir, only understanding of what he said can be wrong.

I am not comprehending what you are stating Jay, are you saying that only the OT Jews are saved, or that they are not? Please clarify what you mean sir.

Jesus gave those words at Mat 7:21 that state that those doing the will of God will inherit the Kingdom, it seems simple to me, but perhaps you think I misinterpreted what he was saying. If that is the case, what is your understanding of what Jesus meant?
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Some OT Jews were saved, but not all. The first disciples were all Jews. The first churches were composed entirely of Jews. Gentiles were added later -- to the Jewish churches. Every "book" of the Bible was written by Jews, with the sole exception of Luke-Acts.

Romans 11:1a, "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!"
Romans 11:15, "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
Romans 11:25-27, " I want you to understand this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not claim to be wiser than you are: a hardening has come upon part of Israel until the full number of the gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.”
“And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.” "

Romans 11:28-29, "As regards the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their ancestors, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
 
Highway54 said:
It is great you break down the Scriptures and greatly aids in understanding. You are apsolutely correct the key to those who inherit the Kingdom is in verse 21, and you hit the nail on the head about what it takes as well, obedience.

Many believe belief in Christ alone will save you. In this passage we have not only belief but exemplary belief in Jesus, but like you stated they practiced lawlessness. They openly stated in their shock that they had prophesied in Jesus' name, cast out demons in his name, and performed many miracles, something on my best day has not happened to me, but Jesus did not accept them. Why? Because like many they chose to worship God in their own way, rather than following Jesus as their model 1 Pet 2:21.
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Perfectly agreed.
The incorrect way is called Faith Alone.
Faith Only is different and it is faith only that saves, just like in the OT.
But then we're required to obey, as is written throughout the NT. It's difficult for me to understand how some don't see this.

Faith Alone is what you're talking about.
It says that all we need is faith with nothing else.
But faith alone stands by itself and is useless in the Kingdom of God right here on earth.
What do we offer to the world and to each other - our families, etc.?
If it's nothing, then of what use if faith?
James spoke to this in chapter 2.

Highway54 said:
Another thing we learn from verse 21 as well, Jesus stated they were not doing the will of his Father, and is not the Father God? In fact isn't He the God Jesus taught us to worship and serve exclusively Mat 4:10? Those who actually do God's will are stated as the ones who truly love Him as seen by this passage: 1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Salvation is dependent upon our obedience to God, worshipping Him with spirit and truth. Only those who observe His laws will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Once again it is great speaking with you Wonder. Bob
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Amen to all.
Same here.
 
jaybo said:
Some OT Jews were saved, but not all. The first disciples were all Jews. The first churches were composed entirely of Jews. Gentiles were added later -- to the Jewish churches. Every "book" of the Bible was written by Jews, with the sole exception of Luke-Acts.

Romans 11:1a, "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!"
Romans 11:15, "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
Romans 11:25-27, " I want you to understand this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not claim to be wiser than you are: a hardening has come upon part of Israel until the full number of the gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.”
“And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.” "

Romans 11:28-29, "As regards the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their ancestors, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Click to expand...
jaybo said:
Some OT Jews were saved, but not all. The first disciples were all Jews. The first churches were composed entirely of Jews. Gentiles were added later -- to the Jewish churches. Every "book" of the Bible was written by Jews, with the sole exception of Luke-Acts.
Click to expand...
Hi Jay, true those who receive salvation is from every nation, those who do not are from every nation as well.

The Bible was authored by God, penned by His people, for His people however.

You seem to be trying to identify God's people. Most likely you believe the Bible identifies God's people, so do I sir, in fact it identifies them beyond any doubt. Would you like to discuss the identifying passages of God's people?
 
wondering said:
Perfectly agreed.
The incorrect way is called Faith Alone.
Faith Only is different and it is faith only that saves, just like in the OT.
But then we're required to obey, as is written throughout the NT. It's difficult for me to understand how some don't see this.

Faith Alone is what you're talking about.
It says that all we need is faith with nothing else.
But faith alone stands by itself and is useless in the Kingdom of God right here on earth.
What do we offer to the world and to each other - our families, etc.?
If it's nothing, then of what use if faith?
James spoke to this in chapter 2.


Amen to all.
Same here.
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Thanks maam, once again appreciate your kind and tactful manner. Bob
 
Highway54 said:
Wow! I have some more great news for you sir, in both places where the lake of fire is mentioned, God chose to define it. It means the second death. In other words, they are gone. You certainly cannot torment/torture death nor hell, yet Rev 21:4 openly stated death would be no more correct, since death is no more, there was no more need for hell correct? Hence why death and hell were cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed in the second death, permanently gone forever.

The misunderstanding lies in the English translation of the word gehenna sir, research it deeper, and think of how those who Jesus said it to would understand his words. I would be more than happy to expound on that topic if you like Bob.
Click to expand...
Did you read Mark 9:43-48. It opposes what you are teaching.
 
Highway54 said:
Hi Jay, true those who receive salvation is from every nation, those who do not are from every nation as well.

The Bible was authored by God, penned by His people, for His people however.

You seem to be trying to identify God's people. Most likely you believe the Bible identifies God's people, so do I sir, in fact it identifies them beyond any doubt. Would you like to discuss the identifying passages of God's people?
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Not really.
 
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