Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?
- Thread starter Divinyl
- Start date
Luke obviously records something different than Matthew.
The following verses look to me as if they refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24
Mathew 24:15 is different
"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
The key, as Jesus said is understanding Daniel the Prophets writings about this.
The disciples asked a question, that prompted this discourse.
1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
They likely thought that the destruction of the temple, meant the end of the age. So The Lord is trying to answer their question, that is based on a false premise and teach us as well.
Notice Luke does not mention Daniel.
I am sorry if I seem like I am side-stepping a very simple question.
The best I can do is say, what Luke records about Jerusalem is different that what Matthew records.
JLB
Stormcrow
Member
OR, Matthew (Levi) being a Jew and writing to a Jewish audience knew his audience would get the reference to Daniel.
Luke, a Gentile and Paul's disciple, writing to a predominantly Gentile audience, would've explained what this reference to Daniel meant, the precedent of which is found in I Maccabees. Catholic bibles have this book (and II Maccabees), Protestant bibles do not, which is why Catholics tend to understand these things better than Protestants.
But I digress.
The point is Matthew and Luke are describing the same event but from completely different perspectives: Matthew, the Jew and Luke, the Gentile.
Well for one thing, Jesus said in Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
In Matthew 24:15 He said -
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
... when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies ... Luke
...when you see the abomination of Desolation... Mathew
He told everyone to everyone to flee when they saw the armies surround Jerusalem, long before they ever got to the city, much less the temple grounds, much less inside the temple.
In Matthews account it was when you see the abomination of Desolation which was to be set up "in" the Temple.
My point being, it is two different sets of instructions, because He is talking about two different events, as Paul goes on to record in his letter to Thessalonica.
JLB
Stormcrow
Member
Well, I suppose that's one creative way to look at it. Wrong, but creative.
I suppose when He told them to flee the city and not come down from their rooftops to grab a coat in these same passages He was referring to two separate events, too, huh?
then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Matthew 24:16-19 (NASB)
"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; Luke 21:21-23 (NASB)
Two separate events with virtually identical warnings?
Sorry. Doesn't pass the smell test.
Perhaps you missed my earlier question so I'll ask it again:
What kingdom does He deliver to the Father and who are the rulers and authorities He is bringing to an end?
Stormcrow
Member
There's not a single translation which uses the word "Temple" in Matthew 24:15. Not one.
However, there is OT precedent to suggest that the entire land of Israel and Judea was holy:
So He brought them to His holy land, To this hill country which His right hand had gained. Psalm 78:54 (NASB)
"The LORD will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem. Zechariah 2:12 (NASB)
"I brought you into the fruitful land To eat its fruit and its good things. But you came and defiled My land, And My inheritance you made an abomination. Jeremiah 2:7 (NASB)
The Jews certainly viewed it all as holy when Pilate tried to bring the ensigns of Rome from Caesarea to Jerusalem. You can read about that incident in Josephus' Wars of the Jews.
Course not Luke was not a Hebrew so Daniel he would not know.
Trying to explain our thoughts here is not sidestepping it is a difficult task.
Generally speaking you do understand the 4 Gospels are different but are the of the same events.
You do not accept Luke 21 as being the about the same event as Mark and Mat. That is one i have not heard before...
I are dealing with Jesus' words " as spoken by the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand.
Abomination of Desolation is "temple" language, as Paul points out.
JLB
Trying to lump everything Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse as "the same event" is something I have never heard before.
Matthew is describing the events in Daniel 9:27 while Luke is describing verse 26.
Luke = "the city and sanctuary destroyed" = Physically destroyed
Matthew = "The abomination of desolation" = Spiritually defiled
Both of these events had to be addressed because they were part of the original question, yet are of different time frames.
Daniel 9:26 = Messiah cut off and city and sanctuary destroyed. Temple destroyed
Daniel 9:27 = Sacrifice and offering stopped. Defiling image set up in the temple. Temple has to be rebuilt.
Two completely different time frames, that Jesus has to deal with in His Discourse that occur at the same place.
Thats why He says "Let the reader understand".
So, we can apply ourselves to understand these seemingly difficult passages in Daniel or we can do like most people and dismiss them as already fulfilled without really studying them out, and rightly dividing these verses.
http://www.templeinstitute.org - The New Temple ready to be rebuilt!
JLB
E
Elijah674
Guest
Of course! All one needs to do is study 'pacifier/wise!' (??Heb. 5)
Read THE BOOK of Isa. 5 'HIS HOUSE'.
If one is to be 'LED' Rom. 8:1 to ibid 14 what is the hold/up?
Matt. 23
[38] Behold, your house [is left unto you desolate].
It became DESOLATE of Christ, the devil took immediately over & they needed his 'BEAST ROME' force to kill & execute! And the DOOR of the HOUSE WAS SHUT! Matt. 25:10 Their probation was over as was rhe Gen. 6:3 ones at the Ark's door of the pre/flood ones.
And the 'conditional' promised land? After the 1000 yrs. and the destruction of ALL THE SECOND DEATH wicked & the New heavens & earth creation, it will be given to the First Resurected Saints!
(of which many will be ex/Jews saves as we were & are by accepting Christ)
--Elijah
Matt. 24 has been around in print Many MOONS & still we cannot get beyond cradel/role mentality. Regardless lf who it is. That SURE IS NOT THE ELECT.
Last edited by a moderator:
Stormcrow
Member
How do you defile something God no longer sanctifies with His presence?
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16 (NASB)
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NASB)
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Corinthians 6:16 (NASB)
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22 (NASB)
Your view would reduce Christ's sacrifice to that of merely another bull or goat. That is the heresy of Futurism/Dispensationalism. It preaches a wholly different gospel than the one Paul and the apostles taught.
2
How do you defile something God no longer sanctifies with His presence?
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16 (NASB)
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NASB)
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Corinthians 6:16 (NASB)
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22 (NASB)
Your view would reduce Christ's sacrifice to that of merely another bull or goat. That is the heresy of Futurism/Dispensationalism. It preaches a wholly different gospel than the one Paul and the apostles taught.
Please don't try and change the subject, by flying of the handle and putting words in my mouth.
I am quoting language from the text we are reading in Matthew 24 and Daniel 9.
Biblical language used to describe events that have to do with a "rebuilt" temple.
Here's what Paul says -
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
How is he revealed, by sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
For that to happen, the temple must be rebuilt, as Daniel 9:27 confirms.
Remember, the 70 weeks are definitively about "your people and your holy city".
It also deals with -
To finish the transgression
To seal up vision and prophecy,
This prophecy will come to pass -
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
For there to be an end of "sacrifice and offering" sacrifice and offering need to be started again.
For sacrifice and offering to be started again, there needs to be a temple "rebuilt.
Again I will refer you to the website of the folks that have everything ready for that to happen. If you chose to disregard this information, that's on you!
http://www.templeinstitute.org
One thing to remember, it is God Himself that "sends them strong delusion that they would believe the lie", why
"because they refused to love the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness"!
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The Temple and the antichrist are that vehicle.
See Deuteronomy 13!
JLB
Here is what our Lord had to say about rebuilding the temple..
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Why again? that happened in 70 AD
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For a good read of temple language the book of Hebrews is great!
"the antichrist"
The 5 times antichrist is used in Scripture not one is used as singular.
1 John 2:18 & 22 1 Joh 4 :3 2 John 1:7
Sinthesis
Member
There was no Jewish temple when Daniel was given his prophecy. The temple had been destroyed in 586BC, and the Jews were still captive in Babylon. The Bible is full of prophecy, from multiple prophets, that the Jewish nation and temple worship would be restored when their 70yr captivity was fulfilled. Daniel is shown how this glorious restoration would eventually decay until the generation of the promised Messiah would transgress the word of God so much as to again warrant the destruction of the second physical temple.
If Daniel is being told about a future (to us) temple, then God neglected to tell him about the events of the first century, which seems ridiculous.
If Daniel is being told about a future (to us) temple, then God neglected to tell him about the events of the first century, which seems ridiculous.
I am sorry my post came across to you the way it did..:eeeekkk told ya i wasn't good with words...
The Sacrifice of Christ was the end of the sacrifices.... The temple way of worship ended when?
Looking to Israel to see the hand of God and dispensational teaching get so tied together. Dispensational teaching teaches a very low value on the Cross of Christ. Yet the OT is full of types of God's sacrifice. O well it is not unto salvation.