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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?
- Thread starter Divinyl
- Start date
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Elijah674
Guest
Stormcrow
Member
Jeremiah was a prophet to Judah before and during the Babylonian siege and captivity. His prophecies were all fulfilled. The passage you cited from Jeremiah 4 has already been fulfilled. It is not about the "end times."
Why do you continue to post these verses, Eli, claiming they are about the "end time" for us when they clearly are not???
Stormcrow
Member
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Jeremiah 4:26 (KJV)
And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' Matthew 24:3 (YLT)
Just as the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar was the sign of the presence of God in judgment upon Jerusalem in 587 BC (Jeremiah 4:26), so too was the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Titus Flavius of Rome the sign of the presence (parousia) of Christ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.
There's your repeat, Eli. Christ's "parousia" (second coming) never has been and never will be about us living 2,000 years later.
Y'all need to deal with it.
And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' Matthew 24:3 (YLT)
Just as the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar was the sign of the presence of God in judgment upon Jerusalem in 587 BC (Jeremiah 4:26), so too was the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Titus Flavius of Rome the sign of the presence (parousia) of Christ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.
There's your repeat, Eli. Christ's "parousia" (second coming) never has been and never will be about us living 2,000 years later.
Y'all need to deal with it.
Here a little and there a little (Isa 28:10)...
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
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Elijah674
Guest
Obad. 1
[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and [[[they shall be as though they had not been]]].
Hi, surely these ones can understand that they had never been on the Lords Holy Mountain! But Lucifer as seen above had been.
And all of this knowledge must come about in the last days of Matt. 24's GENERATION! Dan. 12:1-4. (+ Hosea 4:6 'MY People')
--Elijah
Stormcrow
Member
Fulfilled:
The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." Luke 10:17-20 (NASB)
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel. Genesis 3:15 (Darby)
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 (NASB)
Fulfilled at the cross.
Futurism puts so little faith in the cross.
2One more thing bears mentioning here:
The context of Ezekiel 28 makes it clear that Ezekiel is talking about a man: the King of the Phoenician city of Tyre:
The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas'; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God— Ezekiel 28:1-2 (NASB)
Don't take these verses out of context.
2
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Drew
Member
Agreed. There is this tendency to see the cross as only about "how I get saved", with the result that its full role in the broad universal plan of redemption of all creation gets filtered out.Fulfilled at the cross.
Futurism puts so little faith in the cross.
Stormcrow
Member
Futurism needs an all-powerful devil so that they (Futurists) can see the all-powerful Christ destroy Him when He returns to earth. (Futurism is a faithless doctrine: it needs to see these things to believe they've happened.)
Futurism reduces the work of the cross to little more than a WWE wrestling match where the winner takes the best of three falls.
And just like pro-wrestling, Futurism is fantasy, too.
Stormcrow
Member
That generation has passed:
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "Truly I say to you, (Did Jesus lie when He said this to the disciples???) there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)
I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)
having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:8 (NASB)
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. James 5:9 (NASB)
But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 1 Corinthians 10:11 (NASB)
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:2 (NASB)
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)
~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)
And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)
And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested; Hebrews 9:26 (YLT)
"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you (not us living 2,000 years later) may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)
Jesus was perfectly clear: some of those standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
What's more difficult to believe: that Jesus rose from the dead just as He said He would, or that He returned in their lifetime to judge Israel just as He said He would?
And why would you only believe some of what He said and not all of it???
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Elijah674
Guest
Very true! That is why the Psalms 77:13's requirement needs to be fully understood! It is not over until Christ has finished His Hight Priestly work in heaven on the other side of the rent vail in the Most Holy Place. Dan.12:1-4.
And mankind are still around yet!
--Elijah
You are saying that the words of Christ "some of those standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."That generation has passed:
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "Truly I say to you, (Did Jesus lie when He said this to the disciples???) there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)
...
Jesus was perfectly clear: some of those standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
What's more difficult to believe: that Jesus rose from the dead just as He said He would, or that He returned in their lifetime to judge Israel just as He said He would?
And why would you only believe some of what He said and not all of it???
refer to His returning " in their lifetime to judge Israel just as He said He would"?
Sorry, but that looks more like you are mistaken, brother.
1. Christ has said that His Kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36):
NIV John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
2. He also told His disciples in Luke 22:30 " That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
So, when will this feast occur in what Christ calls "my kingdom" when the disciples will "sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel"? Hear what Scriptures say:
ESV Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Scriptures say it will be in the New World, NOT in this old world where, as you imply, it had already occurred.
I just posted this to cite an example and show what I mean about a biblical proof against any inconsistency of a position. Can you do the same with my chart in the OP of my thread, brother?
Stormcrow
Member
ESV Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The "new world" came with the passing of the old one, as noted in the post I linked that you may have skimmed over:
But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 1 Corinthians 10:11 (NASB)
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:2 (NASB)
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)
Christ's judgment upon Jerusalem can be traced back to what He said in Matthew 21 (parable of the vineyard) and Matthew 23, where He is seen confronting His enemies.
The judgment that befell Jerusalem and Judea at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD is the same judgment that befell Jerusalem and Judah at the hands of Babylon in 587 BC and the reasons for it can be compared in the two chapters (cited in the last paragraph) and in II Chronicles 36:15 et al.
His "coming in His kingdom" happened when the Old Covenant kingdom - ruled by the Old Covenant (Law of Moses) and its corrupt priesthood was overthrown by Rome, and His church - made of of believing Jews and Gentiles - gained ascendency throughout the Roman Empire; even to the present.
The "new world" came with the passing of the old one, as noted in the post I linked that you may have skimmed over:
But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 1 Corinthians 10:11 (NASB)
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:2 (NASB)
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)
Christ's judgment upon Jerusalem can be traced back to what He said in Matthew 21 (parable of the vineyard) and Matthew 23, where He is seen confronting His enemies.
The judgment that befell Jerusalem and Judea at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD is the same judgment that befell Jerusalem and Judah at the hands of Babylon in 587 BC and the reasons for it can be compared in the two chapters (cited in the last paragraph) and in II Chronicles 36:15 et al.
His "coming in His kingdom" happened when the Old Covenant kingdom - ruled by the Old Covenant (Law of Moses) and its corrupt priesthood was overthrown by Rome, and His church - made of of believing Jews and Gentiles - gained ascendency throughout the Roman Empire; even to the present.
I surmise you yourself are not comfortable with your response to my post. You know too well that Christ emphatically told His disciples that in that coming kingdom, they - the disciples - will sit on twelve thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel, an event you likewise know is yet to be fulfilled.
Stormcrow
Member
First of all, don't presume to tell me what I may or may not know.
Secondly, all prophecy was "sealed up" in Christ. Those prophecies not fulfilled with His first coming were fulfilled with His second, which happened in 70 AD, within the lifetimes of some of those that were standing right before Him.
I don't think this statement is accurate. All prophecy was not sealed up in Christ, some is yet future...
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
1) to finish transgression - there is plenty of transgression unrequited here and in Jerusalem today. It is not finished yet.
2) and to make an end of sins - Is sin ended? Not yet.
3) and to make reconciliation for iniquity - What about those who committed iniquity prior to the crucifixion. They were not saved after death were they?
4) and to bring in everlasting righteousness - Take a walk down 42nd street tonight about 2:00AM.
5) and to seal up the vision and prophecy - Is all prophecy done? Most prophecy hinges on Christ's second coming. He has not returned yet.
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Daniel was told that prophecy was sealed up UNTIL the time of the end, when knowledge and travel would be increased. People were still driving donkey carts and riding horses till the 1800's. Not much changed until then. Conservative estimates claim knowledge doubles today every 18 months.
Christ has not returned, so all prophecy concerning Him is not sealed up, finished.
This is not done yet...
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Nor this...
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
6) and to anoint the most Holy - Christ is not ruling over the earth today as Kingd of kings and Lord of lords...
Isa_11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
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Elijah674
Guest
You say... 'Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.'
But that does not include all 'people' just before that, right?;)
--Elijah
Drew
Member
This is one of the most deeply misunderstood statements in all of scripture. Despite appearances, Jesus was not denying that He was a true king over "this world".
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".
As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:
Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here.
The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:
“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€
When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.
Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.
Stormcrow
Member
1. "To finish the transgression,"
- This was fulfilled. (Matt 21:33-45; 23:32,35,36,38; Luke 11:47-51; 1 Thess. 2:14-16) 2. "Make an end of sins,"
- This was fulfilled. (John 1:29; Matt 1:21; Acts 10:43; Hebrews 9:12-14,26; 10:9-14)
3. "Make reconciliation for iniquity,"
- This was fulfilled. (Romans 5:8-11; II Cor. 5:17-21; Hebrews 2:17; Col 1:12-21)
4. "Bring in everlasting righteousness,"
- This was fulfilled. (Romans 3:21-26; 4:13; 5:17,18; 9:30,31; 14:17 (Isa. 51:8) ; Hebrews 9:12; II Thess 2:16; I Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 9:9)
5. "Seal up vision and prophecy,"
- This was fulfilled. (Matthew 13:14,15 (cf. Isaiah 6:9,10); 17:5; John 1:1; 12:39-41; Acts 7:37; 28:25-27; Romans 1:1-2, 3:21, 16:25-26; Ephesians 2:11-17; 3:3-6; Colossians 1:26; Hebrews 1:1-2; I Peter 1:9-11; II Peter 1:19-21)
6. "Anoint the most holy (or holy place)."
- This was fulfilled. (Matthew 3:15-17; Luke 4:18; John 1:32; Acts 2:32,33,38,39; 4:26,27; 10:37,38,44,45; Hebrews 9:22-24 / Not Physical Temple - Acts 7:48-49)
I'll address the rest later. Futurism holds such an utterly low view of the earthly work of Christ and the cross, that it requires a separate, different gospel by which Jews must be saved in the future.
That is the real heresy here.