Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
-
-
Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?
- Thread starter Divinyl
- Start date
How many folks were Christian 2000 years ago? and how many now. Has His kingdom grown?
Last edited by a moderator:
F
felix
Guest
Wow! Are we from a different planet?
(Matt 24:30) "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Rev 1:7) Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Butch5
Member
Ahh, we just alagorize it away. So, Jesus didn't really return at His return?
Well, maybe we take this stuff about being saved to literally also.
Butch5
Member
What does that have to do with what I posted?
Stormcrow
Member
First of all, "all the earth" didn't mean the same thing to them as it does to us.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8 (NASB)
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)
So the writers of the New Testament clearly had a different idea of what "all the earth" was than you do.
But again, the Greek word "ges" used in these verses doesn't just mean "earth." It also means "land."
Greek NASB Number: 1093
Greek Word: γῆ
Transliterated Word: gê
Root: a prim. word;
Definition: the earth, land:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
country (2),
earth (165),
earthly (1),
ground (20),
land (46),
soil (16).
, New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, (Anaheim, CA: Foundation Publications, 1998), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "1093".
Even Darby gets this right in his translation of this verse!
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)
Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby)
Who were the "tribes of the land???"
Israel!
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem [Do you belong to the royal house of David? Do you live in Jerusalem???], the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. "The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14 (NASB)
Let me put it in terms even people from this small, absurd little planet can understand:
This prophecy and its reiteration in Matthew 24 and Revelation 1 is not about you!
Stormcrow
Member
Just shows you really don't know what His return meant.
I can't speak for how you take His Word. Don't presume to speak for me.
Parousia -Strong's Number: 3952
the coming, arrival, advent
- the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NKJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 ASV
1 As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 New Revised Standard
Parousia refers to the literal, tangible reality of Jesus Christ as when He physically returns and puts an end to the kingdoms of this world so much so as they will become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, that will bring about the knowledge of the glory of the Lord covering the earth as the waters cover the sea.
That is what the word of God says, not some perverted, twisted corrupt version of the bible.
For to say Jesus Christ has already returned is pure heresy!
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Beware, you have been warned!
JLB
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Reading your posts, thinking of the tense of the word coming reminded where we are..
Sure it was future tense to those guys. Most of them were in Glory when it came down.....
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Reading your posts, thinking of the tense of the word coming reminded where we are..
Sure it was future tense to those guys. Most of them were in Glory when it came down.....
How many folks were Christian 2000 years ago? and how many now. Has His kingdom grown?
Jesus Christ is King He reigns. How much better off is more of the world to day then yesteryear? Salvation was almost completely for the Hebrews alone .. His righteousness has gone in to nation after nation...
Psa 47:2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
Where is the Holy City you ask ..Well God tells us
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
What power would be if we could accept His victory.... in stead we look for a coming just as the Jewish leaders did.... Something that fits our human minds... A rescue more down the lines of military...
This low view of Christ the low view of His Sacrifice is heart wrenching.
What power is there that He is not over?
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
Do you believe the resurrection of the dead has already taken place!
Have you been caught up with them.
Wow, unbelievable!
JLB
In His Words....The resurrection ( like what your talking about ) is the last day.....
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now i will have trouble conveying my thoughts but i will try......
We were dead in sin you and I He raised us. Correct?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Why because we have
oh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now i will have trouble conveying my thoughts but i will try......
We were dead in sin you and I He raised us. Correct?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Why because we have
oh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
F
felix
Guest
(Mark 13:26-27) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Stormcrow
Member
In this context, earth is correct, but again, the earth to them isn't the same earth to you!
Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. Acts 2:5 (NASB)
You think Luke was writing about Jews from Brazil or Canada here???
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. James 1:1 (NASB)
You think James was greeting Christians living in Hawaii or Guam here???
And what did that mean to come from "the farthest part of heaven." You think that literally means Christians would be summoned from galaxies beyond our own Milky Way?????
"Ho there! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have dispersed you as the four winds of the heavens," declares the LORD. Zechariah 2:6 (NASB)
Now what do you think that could possibly mean??? You think this verse means they were dispersed to Alaska and Australia when Babylon destroyed their land??? You think they even knew such places existed in their experience???
You look at words "heaven" and "earth" and because you are incapable of seeing them any other way than as pertaining to you, you cannot help but misunderstand them.
F
felix
Guest
#1
If earth is correct in this context, let's speak about the context we are discussing and leave the jargon behind.
(Mark 13:26-27) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
So, none saw any Son of Man coming in clouds during 70 AD.
#2
(1Thess 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
If Christ had already came, where are the dead in Christ now? Went back?
#3
(Acts 1:11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This [same] Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
Was He not taken up physically? Is the verse plainly speaking how He will come?
To prove the theory you hold, you are rejecting the truth in Scriptures.
Stormcrow
Member
That's your interpretation. It's not what the NT really teaches:
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17 (NASB)
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, Colossians 1:13 (NASB)
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:6 (NASB)
If you believe in Christ, you're already in all the earthly kingdom there is. It's called His church.
The only kingdom that remains is the one after this life:
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. 2 Timothy 4:18 (NASB)
So what does Paul mean by this, then?
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 1 Corinthians 15:50 (NASB)
If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, how are we in it now, according to Colossians 1:13???
It's very simple: you were transferred into His kingdom the moment you got saved! You were changed, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye!"
His kingdom isn't about "eating and drinking" (the flesh) but about abundant life in the spirit!
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:4-8 (NASB)
You weren't a part of His kingdom - in which He already has all authority (look it up!) - until you were "born again" in the Spirit!
He's not returning to this earth to establish an earthly kingdom because He already did and we who are born again are all part of it! Right this very minute!!!
And when we die, we go to be with Him in His heavenly kingdom, just as Paul said!
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight— we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NASB)
The Lord will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom... 2 Timothy 4:18 (NASB)
The belief in a physical return of Jesus yet future to us is the heresy, because it denies what Jesus did on the cross to bring us into His kingdom now and forever.
Therefore, heed your own warning.
Stormcrow
Member
The sign of His presence (parousia) was the destruction of Jerusalem!
Such literalism will kill the church!
The dead in Christ are with Him and were the moment they passed from this life to the next!
What does it mean when Paul writes this?
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NASB)
The presence of the Lord in the OT was always attended by clouds! To be with the Lord "in the clouds" was to be in His presence!
The LORD descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the LORD. Exodus 34:5 (NASB)
Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. Exodus 40:34 (NASB)
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again. Numbers 11:25 (NASB)
Just as the presence of God was attended by a cloud in the OT, Paul is telling us in the New that those "caught up with Him in the clouds" would be and remain in His presence forever!
This passage has nothing to do with a physical return of Jesus or the dead in Christ to earth. It has everything to do with the living and dead in Christ being in His presence forever.
He was taken up "in a cloud" which is how He said several times He would return. His being taken up "in a cloud" is a direct fulfillment of Daniel 7:13:
"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
His ascension - when He was "taken up with the clouds"- was when He was presented to the Father. He returned "in the clouds" to judge Israel.
To prove the theory you hold, you are rejecting the reality of Christ's Lordship and dominion as they have existed since He ascended. Yours is the real heresy here.
Last edited by a moderator:
F
felix
Guest
(Rev 19:15) Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
(Rev 11:15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
F
felix
Guest
(Acts 1:11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This [same] Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
So, He "literally" didn't go up?
Why you never addressed what I quoted from Scripture and type jargon?
(1Thess 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Jesus Himself said He is not a Spirit:
(Luke 24:39) "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
To believe Jesus will not come in clouds is denying His very nature of Him being flesh and bones.
Father is not the Son, Son is not the Holy Spirit and Father is not the Holy Spirit, yet all three are One. Believing in Father is the Son or Son is the Holy Spirit or Holy Spirit is the Father is Sabellianism which is a heresy. It is also labelled as Patripassianism by Tertullian.
Substituting Holy Spirit in place of Jesus Christ where Scripture plainly speaks about Christ, is heresy called Sabellianism and a direct denial of of the concept of Trinity.