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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?
- Thread starter Divinyl
- Start date
smaller
Member
I'll take that as a "no" on useful, "yes" on trolling.
Jesus told us clearly 'who' that generation is.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Our differences in this matter are quite simple. You see that generation as being only Jews of 70 a.d.
I see that generation as the generation of the devil and his messengers. They are as Jesus stated, in the heart. That is where He looked to find that generation. Internally. IN hearts.
Simple difference. You are certainly welcome to your view.
Jesus dealt with devils in mankind on nearly every page of the N.T. Gospels. It is quite void of sight to not be able to see that fact.
But strange as it seems, most don't and can't see the fact of it.
Yet most believers of the conventional kinds will 'truthfully' acknowledge the workings of the tempter in their own minds/hearts. They just don't connect the dot to the location.
This teaching of Jesus is sure and secure:
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Jews of 70 a.d? Uh, no. An entity class that is not man that entered their hearts where the Word was sown.
And it still goes on to this day. Taken from the statement of faith here to which I totally agree with:
"We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord."
s
Stormcrow
Member
For those who may be wondering...
Let me sing now for my well-beloved A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill. He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, But it produced only worthless ones.
"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge between Me and My vineyard. "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
"So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard: I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed; I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground. "I will lay it waste; It will not be pruned or hoed, But briars and thorns will come up. I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it."
For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress. Isaiah 5:1-7 (NASB)
And now, Christ's use of this same parable to foretell the second destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans!
"Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
"When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
"But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
"Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?"
They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."
Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. Matthew 21:33-46 (NASB)
It's really no more complicated than that: Christ's words were directed to His enemies and were meant for them! Matthew 21-25, Mark 12-13, Luke 11,12,13,14,17,19,20,21, and Revelation 8-20 all deal with the (then) second coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel and Jerusalem.
Just as God the Father had judged Israel and Jerusalem for ignoring and killing His prophets by sending Babylon against them, so, too, God the Son would judge them for killing Him and the messengers (apostles) He sent to them by sending the Romans against them!
The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete. 2 Chronicles 36:15-21 (NASB)
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:29-38 (NASB)
This is a specific prophecy against a specific people with precedent in the Old Testament! And it's not the only one!Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete. 2 Chronicles 36:15-21 (NASB)
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:29-38 (NASB)
Let me sing now for my well-beloved A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill. He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, But it produced only worthless ones.
"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge between Me and My vineyard. "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
"So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard: I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed; I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground. "I will lay it waste; It will not be pruned or hoed, But briars and thorns will come up. I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it."
For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress. Isaiah 5:1-7 (NASB)
"Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
"When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
"But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
"Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?"
They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."
Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. Matthew 21:33-46 (NASB)
Just as God the Father had judged Israel and Jerusalem for ignoring and killing His prophets by sending Babylon against them, so, too, God the Son would judge them for killing Him and the messengers (apostles) He sent to them by sending the Romans against them!
smaller
Member
You think 2 Chron. 36 eliminates Jesus' Word facts? Prolly not.
Bottom line with me and you hasn't changed. You see only Jews of 70 a.d.
Most believers understand the continuing facts of the tempter, presently, in both man and world as noted in the statement of faith here.
s
Stormcrow
Member
I see what Jesus saw. I believe what Jesus said. Why don't you?
smaller
Member
If your claim is that the devil, the tempter was destroyed in 70 a.d. that would be considered well outside the norm and would also be considered heresy in most sects.
Sorry.
s
Stormcrow
Member
I have quoted Christ Himself. If the words of Christ are heresy, it simply shows how far from the truth "most sects" have moved.
You have yet to address a single passage cited in this post, this post or this post. Ignoring them won't make them go away.
You continue to present man's doctrine. I present the words of Christ. I think any objective reader can tell the difference.
smaller
Member
I've put a basic difference in our sights on the table.
If you want to publicly announce you do not believe there is a tempter, Satan and demons, currently in operation in this world in the hearts of mankind you are welcome to do so.
The dissections of full preterism discount this matter of fact entirely and claim it gone and past.
And that is why such teachings will be rightfully rejected by those who know better
s
E
Elijah674
Guest
Twice Christ comes in bodily form. The End of OT & the ending of the NT. (as Eccl. 3:15 documents!:yes)
And twice we see Matt. 10:5-6 on repeated! And we are told what takes place with the ones who just will not hear this repeat message! (see verse 15) And then for what Christ documents as you read on.
And verse 23 ibid has Christ already there speaking, so... anyone can see that this is the END TIME GENERATION that will not PASS AWAY before, He comes Bodily AGAIN!
--Elijah
Stormcrow
Member
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]QUESTION: Has Satan already been cast eternally into the lake of fire? In the newsletter, Don Preston uses Rom. 16:20 as evidence that Paul believed in the imminent return of Christ. If Satan has been crushed, as is evidently the case from Preterist eschatology, why is he so active today? In fact, if I understand Preterism correctly, you have a lot of problems with Satan. I have the sneaky suspicion that you think he’s not really a person or a fallen angel, but rather an influence or inclination toward evil within each of us like the (gasp) liberals believe?
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ANSWER: Make no mistake about Preterism. The preterist view is the ONLY eschatological position which challenges the liberal school of thought consistently. The whole futurist network has surrendered to the liberals on numerous inconsistent fronts. The futurists have more problems dealing consistently with Satan than the preterists. There is a fallen angel (Satan) who spiritually fathered the Jews (Matt. 3:7; 23:33; Jn. 8:44) and influenced them to reject Christ and persecute the Christians. Who was it that tempted Christ in the wilderness (Matt. 4:1ff)? I would have a hard time believing he is not an actual angelic being. But, like Paul said in reference to sin, existence is one thing, reign is another. The “ruler of this world” was cast out and his dominion taken away. So what if he still exists? He has no real spiritual power over us now. It is our own lusts that affect us today (Jas.1:13ff). When Sin/Satan reigned, evil threatened the scheme of redemption, but now through Christ, Satan and Sin no longer reign. -Edward E. Stevens[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.preterist.org/preteristQA.asp#question25
[/FONT]For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Romans 5:17 (NASB)
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, Romans 6:12 (NASB)
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8 (NASB)
Satan still exists but has no power over those who belong to Christ. That is the point of the Q&A above.
And, by the way, the works of the devil were destroyed with Christ's first coming, not His second.
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)
What salvation is there apart from salvation from sin? Understand what His second coming meant to those under Jewish persecution and you'll have your answer.
Last edited by a moderator:
smaller
Member
Then you would also agree that his, Satan's destruction in the LOF remains on the table as well?
He brushes past the obvious in not addressing that matter.
And if that is supposedly so, that it already happened, then the statement of faith position here is also denied. Which is no surprise.
"We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord."
You know I'm just pinning down the fact that when you say that matter is past tense, it is neither common christian understanding and is well outside most arenas of understandings. Blowing this matter off as the full pre answer man did i.e. NOT IN DEPTH and just claiming that 'liberal' understanding when the majority of christianity holds otherwise makes full pre, you know, well into heresy regardless of trying out the liberal paintbrush.
As he said, having sin [which is of the devil] is one thing. Having same reign is quite another matter. Denying having sin, that being of the devil according to 1 John 3:8 is another matter again.
Full preterist positions have not successfully eliminated that fact of 1 John 3:8 connecting sin to the devil.
I know they toss out 1-2 Peter, James, Hebrews, Acts, the Gospels as inapplicable to N.T. believers, but not sure they do that for 1-2nd John. Which they'd have to, to severe that connection of sin to the devil.
They'd also have to eliminate 2nd John as well.
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
So, you understand that by not getting Satan into the LOF, that remains to be done and the full preterist position develops a, you know, big gapping black hole in their 'past tense' understandings.
They'd also have to get all these parties off the face of the earth as well:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
So much for 'past tense' applications.
s
Stormcrow
Member
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
Show me anywhere in this verse where it says Satan is destroyed in the Lake of Fire. You're adding things to the text that aren't even there!
Typical of your ilk, though.
As to the rest, I could care less about “statements of faith.” They do not supersede Christ's words and those of His apostles, which you continue to duck while changing the subject.
We're done.
smaller
Member
Why leap at the mention of destruction and ignore the open fact of the question of whether it happened already in 70 a.d. or not?
The question of permanent destruction or eternal torment are not much different in my eyes. But hey, you are welcome to bypass the other matter in favor of that side track. You must be a clergy/teaching member?
s
smaller
Member
C
cupid dave
Guest
And those same people saw the coming of the Koly Comforter in 54AD which was the start of the 1000 year kingdom of Jesus:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of UniversalChristian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholicmonasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (Christianity mandated as theONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic)judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism):and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of themthat were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word ofGod, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in thepaganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that wasRoman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfishself-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither hadreceived his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads,or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneylessmonastic environments);
and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since theappearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memoriesof the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of theirremains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism)with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of theHoly Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
/////
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, (TheGospels, first appearing in 54AD, The Book of Matthew: [John 16:13]), whom I will send unto you from theFather, (The Gospel Truth), even theSpirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he, (The Gospels) shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because yehave been with me from the beginning.
John 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It isexpedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, (the Gospel), theComforter, will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
C
cupid dave
Guest
Yep....
Satan is thrown into the abyss for the 1000 years of the single 1000 year church of Jesus...
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural Paganism), which is the devil (of feminist sexual license), and (the male libidinal lustfulness of) satan, and bound him, (the dragon, un Christian prudence), a thousand (1000) years (during the reign of Christ throughout the DARK AGES),...
... but of course Satan was not destroyed yet, because he is released in the Renaissance which raised up the beast of the previous sexually promiscous Roman and Greek culture:
Rev. 20:3 And cast him, (this dragon, the subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores,that old serpent, cultural Paganism), into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him, (Satan), up (1000 years so as to inhibit the culture of libidinal freedom and sexual excess), and set a seal, (THE CROSS), upon him, that he (could not maintain that pagan, astrological/mythological sexually promiscuous subculture that) should deceive the nations (in the Western World) no more (with his pagan culture), ...
... till the thousand years (of the Dark Age of Monasticism) should be fulfilled (and the Renaissance of the Beast begin):
and after that, (in The Renaissance), he (Satan) must be loosed (to open the adolescent subculture of ever increasing sexual permissiveness) a little season
Uh, the book of Matthew wasn't the first Gospel written, and it wasn't written in 54 AD.
And the 1000 year reign of Christ hasn't happened yet.
E
Elijah674
Guest
And here is the 1000 yr. prophecy for empty earth until the time of the wicked to be raised to die their second death....
[21] How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
[22] For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down [[at the presence of the LORD,]] and by his fierce anger.
[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
verse 26 is Christ's Second bodily coming. And verse 26 will also find all wicked dead with the exception of satan & his wicked angels in the once again bottomless pit. + the verse will find ALL of the saved going to be with the Lord from this time forward.
--Elijah