Matt 23:1-3 question

[Jethro Bodine]

Then why are they commanded to teach us? Matt 28:19

God has given the calling and gift of teaching to some believers. But what all believers have is the power to discern if what they are being taught really is the truth. That's what you're not understanding.

The people of God are no longer at the mercy of men to discern for them what is truth and what is not. But the Catholics didn't get the memo and tell people that only the Catholic leadership can tell you if something is really truth or not. That is a formula for disaster, as has been evident in the Catholic church now for centuries, and why brave men on threat of death had to resist the Catholic church and separate from it. But you can have it if that's what you want, you know, to be told what is truth and what is not and not be allowed to question it for yourself. As a non-Catholic I'm allowed to be a Berean (Acts 17:11). In the Catholic church you are not...unless you arrive at the same conclusion about what is truth and what is not that they have, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

Sirach 24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.
25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits.
27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb.
28 My memory is unto everlasting generations.
(scripture is deleted by the tradition of men in the KJV)

This is obviously contrary to scripture and why some came to conclusion that it is not holy writ.

 

[donadams]

What if evil rules over one, are they to submit to evil? If one is teaching another gospel are we to submit to false doctrines? The Pharisees taught the word of God, but yet did not walk in obedience to God's commands as that is what Jesus was talking about as believe what they say, but do not be hypocrites as they are. This is why Jesus characterized them and then condemned them in Matthew 23.

Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Matt 28:19 acts 1:8 acts 8:26 eph 5:24 eph 5:32
Christ and HS and angels direct the church thru Peter and the apostles and their successors

 

[donadams]

There are extra books that were not added to the Bible as some had no significance as being trustworthy of those who wrote these books, or that parts are found in the Bible that Christians use. Processing the Catholic Bible culminated in the year 382 as the council of Rome, which was convened under the leadership of Pope Damasus who presided over the Council of Rome that determined the 73 book scriptural canon, or official list of sacred scripture for the Roman Catholic Church.

You don’t cotton to apostolic councils in the new covenant church

What work did Abraham, our example of "righteousness apart from works" do to get God to make him righteous?

When you say that doing something is required to get God to make you righteous in his sight you are serving a works gospel.

faith and works

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[for_his_glory]

You don’t cotton to apostolic councils in the new covenant church

What is your point as the apostolic councils, called the Council of Jerusalem, is a conference of the Christian Apostles in Jerusalem about 50ce that decreed that Gentile Christians did not have to observe the Mosaic law of the Jews.

If you are trying to convert others to become Catholics you are in the wrong forum.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Matt 28:19 acts 1:8 acts 8:26 eph 5:24 eph 5:32
Christ and HS and angels direct the church thru Peter and the apostles and their successors

And once again where is the word Catholic mentioned in any of those scriptures. Peter and the Apostles were not Catholic. BTW, it was the Catholic Church in Rome that made martyr's out of Peter and Paul as they killed them so what does that say about the Roman Catholic Church and their successors that have murdered over 500 million Christians and burned their Bibles.

 

[for_his_glory]

faith and works

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What part of those verse say we are saved by works.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

True faith in Christ always produces good works. We become the workmanship created in Christ after we received the free gift of faith by God's grace. You really need to quit reading into the scriptures something that is clearly not there.

 

[donadams]

All born again believers really are righteous.
The completed but ongoing intercessory ministry of Jesus and his sacrifice before the Father in heaven keeps the believing person continually clean and free of all sin guilt, and so the Father always sees the believer as perfectly righteous. And the Holy Spirit within the believer leads them into an actual life of righteous obedience here on earth. More and more as they mature to the full measure of Jesus Christ and the traits of the Spirit.

Have to keep believing sounds like works righteousness

 

[donadams]

God has given the calling and gift of teaching to some believers. But what all believers have is the power to discern if what they are being taught really is the truth. That's what you're not understanding.

The people of God are no longer at the mercy of men to discern for them what is truth and what is not. But the Catholics didn't get the memo and tell people that only the Catholic leadership can tell you if something is really truth or not. That is a formula for disaster, as has been evident in the Catholic church now for centuries, and why brave men on threat of death had to resist the Catholic church and separate from it. But you can have it if that's what you want, you know, to be told what is truth and what is not and not be allowed to question it for yourself. As a non-Catholic I'm allowed to be a Berean (Acts 17:11). In the Catholic church you are not...unless you arrive at the same conclusion about what is truth and what is not that they have, lol.

Are no bareans that’s a city

 

[donadams]

This is obviously contrary to scripture and why some came to conclusion that it is not holy writ.

Some? Some who say so by what authority?

 

[donadams]

What is your point as the apostolic councils, called the Council of Jerusalem, is a conference of the Christian Apostles in Jerusalem about 50ce that decreed that Gentile Christians did not have to observe the Mosaic law of the Jews.

If you are trying to convert others to become Catholics you are in the wrong forum.

Not called to be successful only faithful
Jude 1:3 contend for the faith

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You don’t cotton to apostolic councils in the new covenant church

faith and works

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Here is what it means for Abraham to be justified by his works:

justify

1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid*


Here is what it means for Abraham to be justified by his faith, apart from works:


justify

2. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin.*


The Catholic church defies the context of, both, Romans 4 and James 2 to come to the erroneous conclusion that James is saying Abraham was made righteous by his obedience, rather than shown to be righteous by his obedience, when he offered Isaac on the altar.

Faith makes you righteous in God's sight, all by itself apart from works.
Works show you to be righteous.
Abraham was made righteous (justified) by faith all by itself in Genesis 15:6.
He was shown to be righteous (justified) by his works in Genesis 22:12.
And so the truth remains that a man is justified by, both, faith and works, and not faith alone.

Understand?
Probably not. But there it is for others to read and learn from. I learned this clarification of the different definitions and usage of the word 'justified' from another forum poster many years ago. I'm just passing it along.


*https://www.thefreedictionary.com/justify

 

[donadams]

And once again where is the word Catholic mentioned in any of those scriptures. Peter and the Apostles were not Catholic. BTW, it was the Catholic Church in Rome that made martyr's out of Peter and Paul as they killed them so what does that say about the Roman Catholic Church and their successors that have murdered over 500 million Christians and burned their Bibles.

Not so
The pagan Roman employee persecuted Catholics for 300 yrs
Including Peter and Paul

 

[donadams]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What part of those verse say we are saved by works.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

True faith in Christ always produces good works. We become the workmanship created in Christ after we received the free gift of faith by God's grace. You really need to quit reading into the scriptures something that is clearly not there.

Where does it say you’re saved?
Eph 2:8 is already accomplished past tense when written
It refers to the redemption Christ accomplished not salvation

You did not believe 2000 years ago
And you must continue to believe Jn 3:16 “believes” present tense
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 until the end

 

[for_his_glory]

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

Sirach 24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

24 I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.
25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
26 Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits.
27 For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb.
28 My memory is unto everlasting generations.
(scripture is deleted by the tradition of men in the KJV)

The Maccabees books were not included in the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh as they are not considered canonical in Judaism. Jewish leaders thought poorly of the rule of the Hasmonean dynasty for many reasons you can look up and a document so openly celebratory of them was problematic.

The Sirach, Ecclesiastes, not to be confused with the book of Ecclesiastics written by King Solomon, is from the Apocrypha "hidden books" was written by a Judahite scribe named Ben Sira (Jesus Sirach) of Jerusalem was only inspired to be written by his father Joshua son of Sirach and not inspired by God.

Some of the Apocrypha is within the Bible, but much of those writings are works outside the canon of scripture not being inspired by God.

BTW you are in violation of the ToS 1.1 and 1.4 for coming against Protestants and if this continues you will be banned from CF. We are here to discuss the different theologies, not to bash them. It would serve you better to stay in the boundary of the Catholic forum to express your beliefs of the Roman Catholic church as that is why these particular forums were set up for as being safe zones.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not called to be successful only faithful
Jude 1:3 contend for the faith

But if you build people up using the Catholic's false gospel of works that can not justify/save, you will have no reward for your labor in the field and building of God (1 Corinthians 3:13-14). So be careful how you build! (1 Corinthians 3:10)

Discard this useless Catholic gospel of works justification and get the real gospel and start building people up who will survive the coming judgment of fire and be a reward for you on the other side.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does it say you’re saved?
Eph 2:8 is already accomplished past tense when written
It refers to the redemption Christ accomplished not salvation

You did not believe 2000 years ago
And you must continue to believe Jn 3:16 “believes” present tense
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 until the end

John 5:24
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (saved is in the present tense, not future tense)

 

[for_his_glory]

Not so
The pagan Roman employee persecuted Catholics for 300 yrs
Including Peter and Paul

Where is that found in history and what is the pagan Roman employee.

It's no wonder many Catholics left the Roman Catholic Church because of all the paganism within it. Big difference between the Roman Catholic Church and what is now the Catholic Church.

 

[donadams]

Here is what it means for Abraham to be justified by his works:

justify

1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid*


Here is what it means for Abraham to be justified by his faith, apart from works:


justify

2. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin.*


The Catholic church defies the context of, both, Romans 4 and James 2 to come to the erroneous conclusion that James is saying Abraham was made righteous by his obedience, rather than shown to be righteous by his obedience, when he offered Isaac on the altar.

Faith makes you righteous in God's sight, all by itself apart from works.
Works show you to be righteous.
Abraham was made righteous (justified) by faith all by itself in Genesis 15:6.
He was shown to be righteous (justified) by his works in Genesis 22:12.
And so the truth remains that a man is justified by, both, faith and works, and not faith alone.

Understand?
Probably not. But there it is for others to read and learn from. I learned this clarification of the different definitions and usage of the word 'justified' from another forum poster many years ago. I'm just passing it along.


*https://www.thefreedictionary.com/justify

What part don’t you get
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works

“Justified BY WORKS!

 

[for_his_glory]

Where does it say you’re saved?
Eph 2:8 is already accomplished past tense when written
It refers to the redemption Christ accomplished not salvation

You did not believe 2000 years ago
And you must continue to believe Jn 3:16 “believes” present tense
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 until the end

So you are going to refute where it says in Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by grace, wow.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: