Bible Study Matt. 25;46

[humble soul]

Everything the Apostles wrote is a historical fact. As I said, if we cannot rely on the Apostles, then on

You continue to confuse me. The apostles wrote what Jesus said. Yes I agree. But the parables were not historical facts. They were stories to highlight a spiritual truth. I think you may have admitted that. But it contradicts what you say here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually you did say God reacts. You said that "Because God knows the future....He does not cause the future." See post #(30).

My statement has NOTHING to do with God reacting to anything.
I said: Because God KNOWS the future does not mean He causes the future.
Knowledge is not causality.
God knows the future....
He did not predestine the past, present or future.
God made us to be free beings, as He is.
He made us in HIS image.
Genesis 1:26
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ....

If you say God does something because He knows the future, and not because He controls the future, then you have God reacting to the future events. In other words, the future is not in His control as He is having to react to it. I am saying of course God knows the future because all in the future is part of His plan.

If you believe we do not have free will....
Could you please explain
Philemon 1:14
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

It would also be nice if you explained
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

If one has a CHOICE....
it means he has free will.
As y ou know, Deuteronomy was written after the fall of Adam.

And, again, concerning people, God knows those who are His. From the very start. They may not know it at the time. They are lost. But God knows it. And they will be saved. God doesn't look toward the future and see you accept Christ and as a result He makes sure the Gospel gets to you. He gets the Gospel to you because you are His and He will save you.

And instead the N.T. teaches that God knows those that will accept Jesus.
He does not arbitrarily decide who will be saved and who will be lost - eternally.

Could you please post scripture that teaches that God picks who will be saved?

Romans 6:16 teaches that we present OURSELVES to someone as a slave --- in this case either of sin resulting in death or obedience
resulting in righteousness. WE PRESENT OURSELVES....this is an action we take.
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


God wishes that all mankind be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


But not all want to be saved...
God leaves the free will decision up to us individually.
There is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:11
11For there is no partiality with God.

We like to use the word 'allow' as though it removes responsibility from God. But, if God 'allows' it, how is it not caused by Him. Could He not allow it? In other words, is there anything existing or happening which is outside of God's control that He must 'allow'? 'Allow' is another of those words that have God 'reacting' to something.

It seems to me that I am giving more credit to God than you or others are.

Concerning your statement that this not understandable and request for verses, I have given verses and explanation in post #(31) and (34). You don't have to agree. But I have explained with Scripture.

You're speaking to me now Quantrill.
The procedure is not for us to go back and read your previous posts.
If you understand what you're saying, you'll have no problem repeating it.
I don't care to spend time with y ou telling me to go back and read your posts,
or that I said something or other in a previous post.
Deal with what's at hand now...
or admit that you cannot answer.
I've repeated myself MANY MANY times through the years, and have done so
because I understand what I'm stating.

(John 3:16-18) teach that all are fallen and need to be saved in order to be right with God. It does not teach that the term 'lost' is to be applied to everyone. Judas is declared by Christ as lost. (John 17:12) But this is not 'lost' as previously owned by God and then lost. Judas was never one of God's, but was given by God to Christ so as to betray Him. He was 'lost' as one of the 12 that were given by God to Christ. (John 6:70-71)

Yes the Prodigal Son teaches more. And more is some of what I gave you.

Quantrill

How do you know Judas was never saved?
Was Jesus wrong when, in Matthew 10, he sent Judas with the other 11 to preach and teach and baptize?
Jesus would send a lost person to preadh His gospel message?

Everyone is born lost.
Everyone has fallen short of the glory of God.
There is none righteous.
Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin so death has spread to all men.
From the book of Romans.

Do you not know that calvinism teaches that we are all born depraved?
If we die before accepting Christ, do we go to be with God?
Please provide a verse that states this or else it is just your opinion.

 

[GodsGrace]

You continue to confuse me. The apostles wrote what Jesus said. Yes I agree. But the parables were not historical facts. They were stories to highlight a spiritual truth. I think you may have admitted that. But it contradicts what you say here.

I'm sorry if I'm confusing you humble soul.
Let me try again.
Jesus told parables to explain a moral truth or a spiritual truth.
The only story Jesus told that is probably true is Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:19-31

OTOH...the Apostles wrote of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
These are NOT parables but are historical fact.
For instance,,,Jesus was really lost at the age of 12 when His family was returning home to Nazareth and then found Him teaching in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Jesus really healed many.
He really had meals with sinners.
He really entered into Jerusalem triumphantly.
He really told the Apostles to find a place to have Passover supper...
etc.

 

[humble soul]

OTOH...the Apostles wrote of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
These are NOT parables but are historical fact.

Right. But your original assertion was that the whole NT was true. Meaning everything actually occurred.
But now we see that not everything did occur.
You weren't so keen on explaining the nuances of spiritual truths at first. But then seemed to backtrack.
Anyway , I don't really enjoy arguments. There are no winners really. I won't be claiming victory here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. But your original assertion was that the whole NT was true. Meaning everything actually occurred.
But now we see that not everything did occur.
You weren't so keen on explaining the nuances of spiritual truths at first. But then seemed to backtrack.
Anyway , I don't really enjoy arguments. There are no winners really. I won't be claiming victory here.

No problem humble soul. The whole N.T. IS TRUE....but the parables are a parable--not a real occurance.
I apologized for not understanding what you were getting at.

OTOH,,,my important point was hoping that you understand that it's your faith that will save you
and not good works if they are without faith.

 

[Quantrill]

My statement has NOTHING to do with God reacting to anything.
I said: Because God KNOWS the future does not mean He causes the future.
Knowledge is not causality.
God knows the future....
He did not predestine the past, present or future.
God made us to be free beings, as He is.
He made us in HIS image.
Genesis 1:26
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ....



If you believe we do not have free will....
Could you please explain
Philemon 1:14
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

It would also be nice if you explained
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

If one has a CHOICE....
it means he has free will.
As y ou know, Deuteronomy was written after the fall of Adam.


And instead the N.T. teaches that God knows those that will accept Jesus.
He does not arbitrarily decide who will be saved and who will be lost - eternally.

Could you please post scripture that teaches that God picks who will be saved?

Romans 6:16 teaches that we present OURSELVES to someone as a slave --- in this case either of sin resulting in death or obedience
resulting in righteousness. WE PRESENT OURSELVES....this is an action we take.
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


God wishes that all mankind be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


But not all want to be saved...
God leaves the free will decision up to us individually.
There is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:11
11For there is no partiality with God.



You're speaking to me now Quantrill.
The procedure is not for us to go back and read your previous posts.
If you understand what you're saying, you'll have no problem repeating it.
I don't care to spend time with y ou telling me to go back and read your posts,
or that I said something or other in a previous post.
Deal with what's at hand now...
or admit that you cannot answer.
I've repeated myself MANY MANY times through the years, and have done so
because I understand what I'm stating.

How do you know Judas was never saved?
Was Jesus wrong when, in Matthew 10, he sent Judas with the other 11 to preach and teach and baptize?
Jesus would send a lost person to preadh His gospel message?

Everyone is born lost.
Everyone has fallen short of the glory of God.
There is none righteous.
Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin so death has spread to all men.
From the book of Romans.

Do you not know that calvinism teaches that we are all born depraved?
If we die before accepting Christ, do we go to be with God?
Please provide a verse that states this or else it is just your opinion.

But, you are wrong. God knows the future because He causes the future. The future is all His plan. What you're saying is that God looked ahead at the future and so ordered things due to what He saw. That is false. That makes the future out of God's control.

I don't know where you get the idea that God made us 'free beings'. Possibly Sesame Street TV. Was Adam free? God created him and gave him responsibility and ordered him not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve disobeyed and so cursed the rest of mankind. Is that the freedom you speak of?

Concerning (Philemon 14), "as it were of necessity, but willingly." Man has a will of course. It just isn't free. Only God has 'free will'.

Concerning (Deut. 30:19), as I said, man has a will, it just isn't free.

God doesn't need to 'pick' those to be saved, as you want to say. God knows those who are His, as I have already shown. Address the Scriptures I have given to prove that first. If you are still confused, let me know.

Concerning (Rom. 6:16), what is your point?

Concerning (1 Tim. 2:4), I have already addressed that.

As I said, go back to post #(31) and (34). If you're unwilling to read what has already gone before, then don't be demanding I address your questions that have already been addressed.

Concerning how I know Judas was never saved, I gave you the Scripture already. (John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil."

This tells me you don't even read what is there before you reply. Why is that?

I am not trying to argue 'Calvinism'. Stick with the subject at hand.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Was there really a prodigal son? Or did Jesus create the character and story to teach us the importance of forgiveness?
And show how loving God the Father can be.
It doesn't bother me whether it is fact or fiction. The spiritual truth is what matters.

I believe the story of the Prodigal Son was not a parable but an actual event. It doesn't begin as a parable, as the 'lost sheep' and 'lost coin' do. (Luke 15:3-10). It begins "And he said, A certain man had two sons". Thus I am inclined to believe it really occurred.

But, as you say, whether a real event or not, a parable, or allegory, or symbol, is for the purpose of teaching truth. I say 'literal' truth, which is not in contrast to spiritual truth. The whole Bible is spiritual truth whether literal or symbolic is being used.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

But, you are wrong. God knows the future because He causes the future. The future is all His plan. What you're saying is that God looked ahead at the future and so ordered things due to what He saw. That is false. That makes the future out of God's control.

God is not out of control about anything.
God is in control.
He gave us free will and this does not make God be out of control.

Psalm 115:3​

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

I don't know where you get the idea that God made us 'free beings'. Possibly Sesame Street TV. Was Adam free? God created him and gave him responsibility and ordered him not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam and Eve disobeyed and so cursed the rest of mankind. Is that the freedom you speak of?

Please don't be degrading...I treat you with respect; you should do the same.
Because we disagree does not make us enemies...we serve the same Lord.

I gave you some verses...which you seem to explain below...about how we have free will.
Could YOU give ME a verse that shows we have had our free will taken away from us?
The freedom I speak of is called libertarian free will.
We are free to choice between two moral choices...we can sin or we cannot sin.
We can do good or we can do evil.
Do YOU ever sin?
If you DO sin....and God plans everything....does this mean that God desired you to sin?

This is not the God of the N.T.

1 Corinthians 10:13​

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Philippians 4:6-7​

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

I find in the N.T. and in the example of Jesus, God incarnate, a God of love and peace...not a God that causes one to sin and be evil.

Concerning (Philemon 14), "as it were of necessity, but willingly." Man has a will of course. It just isn't free. Only God has 'free will'.

Concerning (Deut. 30:19), as I said, man has a will, it just isn't free.

Philemon clearly states the words FREE WILL.
You can say it is not free will but that does not make it so.
Please explain how our will is not free if the N.T. and O.T. clearly state that it is.

You also have not answered to Deuteronomy 30:19.
God tell the Israelites to CHOOSE...
If I can choose, how do I NOT HAVE free will??

God doesn't need to 'pick' those to be saved, as you want to say. God knows those who are His, as I have already shown. Address the Scriptures I have given to prove that first. If you are still confused, let me know.

I NEVER said God picks those to be saved.
YOU are saying this.
I don't find any scriptures from you.
I apologize if I've missed them....
And please do not assume I'm confused.
The N.T. is very clear in what it teaches....
God is not a God of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33

Concerning (Rom. 6:16), what is your point?

Concerning (1 Tim. 2:4), I have already addressed that.

As I said, go back to post #(31) and (34). If you're unwilling to read what has already gone before, then don't be demanding I address your questions that have already been addressed.

Concerning how I know Judas was never saved, I gave you the Scripture already. (John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelv, and one of you is a devil."

This tells me you don't even read what is there before you reply. Why is that?

I am not trying to argue 'Calvinism'. Stick with the subject at hand.

Quantrill

Romans 6:16
I told you the point when I posted it.
It states that WE PRESENT OURSELVES to whom we will be a servant.
If we PRESENT OURSELVES, it means we have the free will to do so.
Does GOD make us present ourselves to satan for service to him?
Is this what the N.T. teaches us?

1 Timothy 2:4
I cannot remember you addressing this point.
God wants that all mankind be saved....but not all men WANT to be saved.
God has conditions...and our salvation is based upon whether or not we meet those conditions.
I'm not going back to read your old posts...I do not send YOU back to read MY old posts.
I've repeated what I'm saying to you many times because I feel it's an important topic.

As to Judas....
By John 6:70 Judas was following the plan of God and had become a traitor - or was about to be.

Have YOU read Matthew 10:1-8?
Here it is....did Jesus send a devil out to preach, teach and baptize?

1Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7“And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.


BTW...what IS THE SUBJECT AT HAND?
I believe we were discussing free will.

 

[Edward]

'That'

Quantrill

Are you like, a bayard or something? Every time someone disagrees with you, you turn nasty with them. It doesn't look good on you.

 

[Quantrill]

God is not out of control about anything.
God is in control.
He gave us free will and this does not make God be out of control.

Psalm 115:3​

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.


Please don't be degrading...I treat you with respect; you should do the same.
Because we disagree does not make us enemies...we serve the same Lord.

I gave you some verses...which you seem to explain below...about how we have free will.
Could YOU give ME a verse that shows we have had our free will taken away from us?
The freedom I speak of is called libertarian free will.
We are free to choice between two moral choices...we can sin or we cannot sin.
We can do good or we can do evil.
Do YOU ever sin?
If you DO sin....and God plans everything....does this mean that God desired you to sin?

This is not the God of the N.T.

1 Corinthians 10:13​

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Philippians 4:6-7​

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

I find in the N.T. and in the example of Jesus, God incarnate, a God of love and peace...not a God that causes one to sin and be evil.


Philemon clearly states the words FREE WILL.
You can say it is not free will but that does not make it so.
Please explain how our will is not free if the N.T. and O.T. clearly state that it is.

You also have not answered to Deuteronomy 30:19.
God tell the Israelites to CHOOSE...
If I can choose, how do I NOT HAVE free will??


I NEVER said God picks those to be saved.
YOU are saying this.
I don't find any scriptures from you.
I apologize if I've missed them....
And please do not assume I'm confused.
The N.T. is very clear in what it teaches....
God is not a God of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33

Romans 6:16
I told you the point when I posted it.
It states that WE PRESENT OURSELVES to whom we will be a servant.
If we PRESENT OURSELVES, it means we have the free will to do so.
Does GOD make us present ourselves to satan for service to him?
Is this what the N.T. teaches us?

1 Timothy 2:4
I cannot remember you addressing this point.
God wants that all mankind be saved....but not all men WANT to be saved.
God has conditions...and our salvation is based upon whether or not we meet those conditions.
I'm not going back to read your old posts...I do not send YOU back to read MY old posts.
I've repeated what I'm saying to you many times because I feel it's an important topic.

As to Judas....
By John 6:70 Judas was following the plan of God and had become a traitor - or was about to be.

Have YOU read Matthew 10:1-8?
Here it is....did Jesus send a devil out to preach, teach and baptize?

1Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7“And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.


BTW...what IS THE SUBJECT AT HAND?
I believe we were discussing free will.

I know God is not out of control. And that is the point of conflict you and I are having. You ask at the end of your post, "what is the subject at hand"? It is just that. You view God as reacting to what He sees as future. That is not so, as that means the future is out of God's plan. Out of His control. As I have said, God doesn't look ahead and see the future and so acts. The future is what God plans it to be.

So, no, we were not discussing 'free will' at the first. That has been another rabbit trail. But if you want to discuss the 'will' of man, that's fine.

Concerning free will, man does not have it. Just because you choose doesn't mean you have free will. Man has a will. As I have said before, only God has free will. Man has never had 'free will' taken away because he never had it in the first place.

Mans will is not free as He has outside forces always pressuring and influencing his will. You have a will, but not free will. You don't always get what you 'will'. And many times you 'will' something though you would have willed something else if your will was 'free'.

I have used this example many times. You take your two children out on a boat ride in the lake. No safety vests, even though they can't swim very well. Your speeding on the water and hit a submerged log. You and the kids go flying. They land far apart and you land in the middle. They are crying for help as they can't swim. They are too far apart for you to save both. You must choose one. What is your will?

Your will is to save them both. But you can't have your will. Your will is not free. It is affected by other forces. So, you will exercise your will, and save one. But that was not your will. Only God has free will. God's will is never affected by outside forces.

God always gets what He wants. His will is always done.

Concerning Judas, (John 6:70) proves he was never a child of God. He was a devil, of the wicked one. He was never saved. Judas wasn't doing what he was doing to be obedient to God. That it was God's plan to use him, yes. But Judas was not acting out to be obedient to God. He was betraying God and Christ. Thus my point with Judas, when Christ said none are lost except Judas, (John 17:12), was that Judas being lost is not the same as the believer being lost. Judas was lost from the 12 whom God the Father gave the Son. Judas was not lost in salvation as he was never of God. Never a child of God.

Concerning (Matt. 10:1-8) Yes, I have read it. And yes, Jesus sent a devil out to preach, teach, and baptize, as he was one of the 12.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Those that are cast into the Lake of Fire, God wants them cast into the Lake of Fire. God reveals who they are by their own will, by their rejection of God and Christ.

Yes, you are missing something. Note that (Peter) says "longsuffering to us-ward". That is believers. The scoffers mock the 2nd coming in the Last days. (2nd Peter 3:3) But the length of time is due to God's longsuffering for those who still need to come to Christ, and will come to Christ, whom God knows, the lost.

The 'all' in (1 Peter 3:9) speaks to those believers, who have not yet come to Christ. "us-ward"

God always gets what He wants. If God wants anyone saved, they will be saved.

And, you have this same thing in (1 Timothy 2:4) "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Who is the 'all'? Go back to (1 Tim. 1:16). Paul speaks just as (Peter 3:9) does. "in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

Thus the 'prayers for all men' in (1 Tim 2:1) speaks to those who will come to Christ, whom God knows but they don't. Just like in (2:8), "men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands" is not talking about all men. Just the believing.

Quantrill

God said that He would that none should perish as He wants everyone to come back to Him.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Those who reject the knowledge of God He will forget even their children as He turns their glory to shame.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

God is no respecter of person as none of us are righteous on our own as our righteousness is as a filthy rag to God. It's only those who respect God and work within His righteousness that is found in them that are God's own.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hell can begin here. Hell and Heaven are way beyond our imagination. We can't describe them. I am more kidding about trying to describe them.
If our motivation for doing good now, is seeking reward in the afterlife, our faith is superficial at best.
Would you go to Hell, so that your child could go to Heaven? Now that's sacrifice. That's love.
My idea of Heaven is like a reunion party.
You get to see all the people you loved, again.

The thing is that hell is not the lake of fire, but only that of the grave where our bodies are laid in when we die. (That's another topic) Hell on earth is a man made phrase that comes from one's own misery. It's only by God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus that we are rewarded for the continued works of Christ as described in Matthew 25:31-40. Our motivation needs to be set on the Spiritual things from above where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Colossians 3:1-4.

No, I would not go to the lake of fire so my child would go be with the Lord. I would teach my child about Jesus so we could both be in the New Jerusalem.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[humble soul]

Hell on earth is a man made phrase that comes from one's own misery

Hell on earth is real. Just ask any North Korean living in daily fear.

 

[for_his_glory]

If it is not difficult, why do you not believe it?

Quantrill

Do you not believe everything is under God's control as there is even purpose in the evil He created as I explained in post #48.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, I didn't say it in post #(34). Which is why you can't quote it.

Neither did I say it in post #(64) which you just replied to.

Your comprehension is lacking. You claimed I said, 'the Lord causes things to happen because He knew it would happen'.

Explain how my statements in (34) and (64) say that.

Quantrill

Edward already showed you, but for some reason you can not recognize what you have said even though you said it and we have read it. It's time to move past this and let it go instead of constantly bringing it up.

 

[Hopeful]

Parables are told to explain a spiritual truth, or a moral truth.
The only parable that most theologians believe is true is the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16:19-31
They believe it's true because Jesus uses names and He never did in a parable.

Everything the Apostles wrote is a historical fact. As I said, if we cannot rely on the Apostles, then on whom should we rely?
You might have asked me if the PARABLES are historical fact...if so, I misunderstood you and apologize; I won't go back to check.
The parables did not really happen...except, most probably, for Luke 16:19.......

I've just dived in here on page 5 without reading preceding posts, so if this is out of line, ignore it...
If the Lazarus parable was fact it wouldn't be a parable.
Were it fact, it would indicate the judgement of man has already started, while we know that won't happen till the return of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

But you have God reacting all through scripture to people, events...many things. One scripture should confirm this.

2 Chronicles 7:14
14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.../

If my people. IF my people. So God said He will react to what they do. It may be a wee bit hard to comprehend how God IS in control and still, we have free will. These type examples are all through scripture.

If my people, which IMO means everyone, as we were all created in His image making us His people. This is also mentioned in the beginning of Hosea 4:6 My people. We were all created by God who breathed His breath in us making us a living soul. But we are also estranged from the womb, Psalms 58:3; 51:5 as we have all fallen short of the glory of the Lord in need of a redeeming Savior. Now we bring in what is written in 2 Chronicles 7:14 My people.

God does react to the choices we make as stated in John 5:28, 29. It's all by our own choices that either brings life eternal or eternal damnation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Through all of which, God's will is done. As I said earlier, as the believer goes through the history of this salvation, there is obedience and disobedience bringing about blessing or discipline from God. This is not equated with God looking in the future and seeing man is going to be disobedient and so having to react to it.

This is all of God's plan. The fall of man was God's plan. The disobedience of Adam and Eve was God's plan. The salvation created by God for that fall was God's plan. The up and down walk of the believer in this life, was God's plan. The verse you cite is also part of God's plan. The Law was God's plan. Man's failure under the Law was God's plan. Etc. Etc. Etc.

God gets everything He wants.

Quantrill

Are you saying it was God's plan that man would fall away from Him? Please tell me I am misunderstanding you.

Was it not God's plan for man to take care of and enjoy all that He created?

 

[for_his_glory]

Such a question means you haven't read what I have said, or are just ignoring what I said. To answer your question I would just be repeating. So, instead of me repeating, go and read what I said.

Quantrill

This was a legit question JLB asked you. There is no need to not answer him. Nobody is going to go back 4 pages to try and find what anyone has already said. You could just give him the post number so he could go read what you wrote so he can discuss what he is asking.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know God is not out of control. And that is the point of conflict you and I are having. You ask at the end of your post, "what is the subject at hand"? It is just that. You view God as reacting to what He sees as future. That is not so, as that means the future is out of God's plan. Out of His control. As I have said, God doesn't look ahead and see the future and so acts. The future is what God plans it to be.

So, no, we were not discussing 'free will' at the first. That has been another rabbit trail. But if you want to discuss the 'will' of man, that's fine.

Concerning free will, man does not have it. Just because you choose doesn't mean you have free will. Man has a will. As I have said before, only God has free will. Man has never had 'free will' taken away because he never had it in the first place.

Mans will is not free as He has outside forces always pressuring and influencing his will. You have a will, but not free will. You don't always get what you 'will'. And many times you 'will' something though you would have willed something else if your will was 'free'.

I have used this example many times. You take your two children out on a boat ride in the lake. No safety vests, even though they can't swim very well. Your speeding on the water and hit a submerged log. You and the kids go flying. They land far apart and you land in the middle. They are crying for help as they can't swim. They are too far apart for you to save both. You must choose one. What is your will?

Your will is to save them both. But you can't have your will. Your will is not free. It is affected by other forces. So, you will exercise your will, and save one. But that was not your will. Only God has free will. God's will is never affected by outside forces.

God always gets what He wants. His will is always done.

Concerning Judas, (John 6:70) proves he was never a child of God. He was a devil, of the wicked one. He was never saved. Judas wasn't doing what he was doing to be obedient to God. That it was God's plan to use him, yes. But Judas was not acting out to be obedient to God. He was betraying God and Christ. Thus my point with Judas, when Christ said none are lost except Judas, (John 17:12), was that Judas being lost is not the same as the believer being lost. Judas was lost from the 12 whom God the Father gave the Son. Judas was not lost in salvation as he was never of God. Never a child of God.

Concerning (Matt. 10:1-8) Yes, I have read it. And yes, Jesus sent a devil out to preach, teach, and baptize, as he was one of the 12.

Quantrill

Free will is a part of a virtuous person as this type of discussion about being virtuous can lead to many different areas.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​