Bible Study Matt. 25;46

[for_his_glory]

Hell on earth is real. Just ask any North Korean living in daily fear.

I can say in my own life that I have been to hell and back as that is only a phrase we use for those moments of torment we have gone through, but yet survived. No one alive has ever gone to hell (grave) or the lake of fire.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And death (Spiritually dead) and hell (the grave) are cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Reference for hell:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

 

[Quantrill]

Are you saying it was God's plan that man would fall away from Him? Please tell me I am misunderstanding you.

Was it not God's plan for man to take care of and enjoy all that He created?

Did I not say the fall of man was God's plan? Of course the fall of man was God's plan. Else it never would have happened.

Do you really believe the fall was not God's plan? Do you believe satan trumped God in the Garden?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Free will is a part of a virtuous person as this type of discussion about being virtuous can lead to many different areas.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​

You're simply arguing for 'will'. Not free will. I have always said man has a will. That is not the point. But mans will is not free.

Just because man doesn't have free will doesn't speak to fatalism because man has a will.

Heaven or Hell. Christ or the Lake of Fire. Herein you must make a decision. Correct? The man of the world, children of satan, don't want either one. The want to be free from either. But, guess what? Their will is not free. It is forced to make a decision one way or the other. They do not have free will. They have a will.

Only God has free will as His will is not acted on by outside forces. He does as He wills.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

I know God is not out of control. And that is the point of conflict you and I are having. You ask at the end of your post, "what is the subject at hand"? It is just that. You view God as reacting to what He sees as future. That is not so, as that means the future is out of God's plan. Out of His control. As I have said, God doesn't look ahead and see the future and so acts. The future is what God plans it to be.

Hi Quantrill
If we both know that God is in control, how is that the point of conflict between us?

God does not "react" to anything because He already knows what will happen.

What we disagree about - I think - is what exactly is meant by your statement that "the future is what God wants it to be".
Are you saying that God plans EVERYTHING that will happen to everyone?
Do you mean that God has predestined everything that happens?

So, no, we were not discussing 'free will' at the first. That has been another rabbit trail. But if you want to discuss the 'will' of man, that's fine.

Concerning free will, man does not have it. Just because you choose doesn't mean you have free will. Man has a will. As I have said before, only God has free will. Man has never had 'free will' taken away because he never had it in the first place.

This is a new concept to me.
Do you mean that Adam did not have the free will to choose to eat the forbidden fruit?
If I can CHOOE, how does that mean I do not have free will to make that choice?
What do you mean by "man has a will" (but it's not free).

I hope you now that biblically speaking free will just means that you are free to make a choice between two moral choices.
You can either choose the good or the bad.

Mans will is not free as He has outside forces always pressuring and influencing his will. You have a will, but not free will. You don't always get what you 'will'. And many times you 'will' something though you would have willed something else if your will was 'free'.

I believe you're explaining philosophical will, or free will.
IOW,,,we could will to fly, but will not be able to.
This is not biblical free will. Biblical free will just means choosing between the good or the bad.
God allows us, individually, to choose whether or not we want to sin.
He does not make the choice for us.
This is known as libertarian free will.
As to forces and influences,,,yes, we are influenced by our experiences and even by the Holy Spirit when we're faced
with a moral choice: However to have free will just means that we are free to choose either to sin or not to sin.

I have used this example many times. You take your two children out on a boat ride in the lake. No safety vests, even though they can't swim very well. Your speeding on the water and hit a submerged log. You and the kids go flying. They land far apart and you land in the middle. They are crying for help as they can't swim. They are too far apart for you to save both. You must choose one. What is your will?

Your will is to save them both. But you can't have your will. Your will is not free. It is affected by other forces. So, you will exercise your will, and save one. But that was not your will. Only God has free will. God's will is never affected by outside forces.

God always gets what He wants. His will is always done.

I can agree with the above,,,but again, this is not biblical free will.
We cannot get everything we would will, just as you say.
However, this is not the will the bible speaks of.

Concerning Judas, (John 6:70) proves he was never a child of God. He was a devil, of the wicked one. He was never saved. Judas wasn't doing what he was doing to be obedient to God. That it was God's plan to use him, yes. But Judas was not acting out to be obedient to God. He was betraying God and Christ. Thus my point with Judas, when Christ said none are lost except Judas, (John 17:12), was that Judas being lost is not the same as the believer being lost. Judas was lost from the 12 whom God the Father gave the Son. Judas was not lost in salvation as he was never of God. Never a child of God.

Concerning (Matt. 10:1-8) Yes, I have read it. And yes, Jesus sent a devil out to preach, teach, and baptize, as he was one of the 12.

Quantrill

OK. It's not necessary to go off topic.
Predestination
and
Free will
is enough for one day!

 

[GodsGrace]

I've just dived in here on page 5 without reading preceding posts, so if this is out of line, ignore it...
If the Lazarus parable was fact it wouldn't be a parable.
Were it fact, it would indicate the judgement of man has already started, while we know that won't happen till the return of Christ.

Right!
I should have put parable in quotation marks.
I believe Jesus was telling true events in Luke 16:19-31.
Hades is a real place and there is a real division.

Judgement has already started in this sense:
When a person dies they go to be where they belong.
Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

There will also be a final judgement at the end of time.
Those in Christ for rewards and those lost will face the final death...the Lake of fire.

 

[Quantrill]

Hi Quantrill
If we both know that God is in control, how is that the point of conflict between us?

God does not "react" to anything because He already knows what will happen.

What we disagree about - I think - is what exactly is meant by your statement that "the future is what God wants it to be".
Are you saying that God plans EVERYTHING that will happen to everyone?
Do you mean that God has predestined everything that happens?


This is a new concept to me.
Do you mean that Adam did not have the free will to choose to eat the forbidden fruit?
If I can CHOOE, how does that mean I do not have free will to make that choice?
What do you mean by "man has a will" (but it's not free).

I hope you now that biblically speaking free will just means that you are free to make a choice between two moral choices.
You can either choose the good or the bad.


I believe you're explaining philosophical will, or free will.
IOW,,,we could will to fly, but will not be able to.
This is not biblical free will. Biblical free will just means choosing between the good or the bad.
God allows us, individually, to choose whether or not we want to sin.
He does not make the choice for us.
This is known as libertarian free will.
As to forces and influences,,,yes, we are influenced by our experiences and even by the Holy Spirit when we're faced
with a moral choice: However to have free will just means that we are free to choose either to sin or not to sin.


I can agree with the above,,,but again, this is not biblical free will.
We cannot get everything we would will, just as you say.
However, this is not the will the bible speaks of.

OK. It's not necessary to go off topic.
Predestination
and
Free will
is enough for one day!

I have already explained it to you. You believe, unless you have changed your statement, that God sees the future and so acts upon that. I do not. That is something occurring which God has not planned, that He then reacts to.

I mean the future is going to go the way God has planned it to go. As I said before, if every hair on our head is numbered, why is it difficult to believe that God controls the future? All of it.

OK. You want to use Adam as an example of 'free will' But, the serpent was in the garden. The serpent worked on Eve's will. The serpent put pressure on Even and seduced her and deceived her will. She exercised her will, but it wasn't free. Things occurred that pressured her to it.

Then here she comes to Adam, a fallen woman. Under the death penalty now. She offers to Adam the fruit also. What is Adam's will? Does he eat or refuse? Does he go tell God what Eve did? What is Adam's will? Adam loves Eve. What does he do? Adam is between a rock and a hard place. His will is being acted on and pressured from outside forces. His will is that Eve never ate that fruit. But he is not going to get his will. He has to decide. Go down with Eve and be with her in judgement. Or lose her in obedience to the command not to eat.

His will was exercised, but it was not 'free'. Only God has free will. God is never between a rock and a hard place.

Quantrill

 

[Hopeful]

Right!
I should have put parable in quotation marks.
I believe Jesus was telling true events in Luke 16:19-31.
Hades is a real place and there is a real division.

Judgement has already started in this sense:
When a person dies they go to be where they belong.
Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

There will also be a final judgement at the end of time.
Those in Christ for rewards and those lost will face the final death...the Lake of fire.

Doesn't your last two sentences nullify the middle four?

Those judged worthy of eternal life will not be able to talk with those thrown in the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did I not say the fall of man was God's plan? Of course the fall of man was God's plan. Else it never would have happened.

Do you really believe the fall was not God's plan? Do you believe satan trumped God in the Garden?

Quantrill

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The above was Gods plan for man and everything God made was good. Would it be a good thing on God's part of a perfect creation to make a plan for man to corrupt them self. no. Since we were created in His image and God saw that everything was good, how could His plan include man to fall. That makes no sense by any standard. It was man's choice alone to fall to temptation being seduced as he lusted after the fruit as he decided on his own free will, as he was free to choose to disobey God's command to not eat of that particular tree.

God will test our faith, but He will never tempt us to fail him.

(I will not get into a discussion with you about free will so please do not go there.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The above was Gods plan for man and everything God made was good. Would it be a good thing on God's part of a perfect creation to make a plan for man to corrupt them self. no. Since we were created in His image and God saw that everything was good, how could His plan include man to fall. That makes no sense by any standard. It was man's choice alone to fall to temptation being seduced as he lusted after the fruit as he decided on his own free will, as he was free to choose to disobey God's command to not eat of that particular tree.

(I will not get into a discussion with you about free will so please do not go there.)

Your last sentence made me laugh.
It IS a dangerous place to be!!
Can't even seem to agree on what it means and I don't know why.

 

[for_his_glory]

You're simply arguing for 'will'. Not free will. I have always said man has a will. That is not the point. But mans will is not free.

Just because man doesn't have free will doesn't speak to fatalism because man has a will.

Heaven or Hell. Christ or the Lake of Fire. Herein you must make a decision. Correct? The man of the world, children of satan, don't want either one. The want to be free from either. But, guess what? Their will is not free. It is forced to make a decision one way or the other. They do not have free will. They have a will.

Only God has free will as His will is not acted on by outside forces. He does as He wills.

Quantrill

You believe as you want as Calvinism teaches against free will. There is no need to discuss this any further with you.

 

[Quantrill]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The above was Gods plan for man and everything God made was good. Would it be a good thing on God's part of a perfect creation to make a plan for man to corrupt them self. no. Since we were created in His image and God saw that everything was good, how could His plan include man to fall. That makes no sense by any standard. It was man's choice alone to fall to temptation being seduced as he lusted after the fruit as he decided on his own free will, as he was free to choose to disobey God's command to not eat of that particular tree.

God will test our faith, but He will never tempt us to fail him.

(I will not get into a discussion with you about free will so please do not go there.)

I wasn't going there. I asked you if you believed satan trumped God in the Garden. Did he?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You believe as you want as Calvinism teaches against free will. There is no need to discuss this any further with you.

OK.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

I have already explained it to you. You believe, unless you have changed your statement, that God sees the future and so acts upon that. I do not. That is something occurring which God has not planned, that He then reacts to.

It sounds to me like you're speaking about open theism and closed theism.
It questions whether or not God knows the future or if He knows things as both He and His creation (us) go along in time.

I never said God sees the future and so acts upon it.
I've been saying that God KNOWS the future because He sees all time, everything in time, all at once.

If this cannot be understood by you, then it's useless to keep repeating the same explanation over and over again.
I feel that you have your belief so firm in your mind that it's not possible for you to understand me.
I'm sorry I can't do any better to make you understand.

I mean the future is going to go the way God has planned it to go. As I said before, if every hair on our head is numbered, why is it difficult to believe that God controls the future? All of it.

Everything is going to go as God planned/plans.
Every Christian agrees with this. Nothing happens that God does not allow.

I believe the difference here is that YOU believe that God DETERMINES EVERYTHING that will happen.
IOW...HE predestines everything.
If this is what you believe then you must also believe that God causes all evil to happen.
There are some in the reformed faith that believe this...that God causes all to happen, both good and evil.

I do not learn this from the bible.
I learn that God exists and loves His creation and interacts with it in different ways.
I also learn that satan exists and pours his evil ways onto nature and men, and thus evil exists.

Calvinists, OTOH, believe that God creates everything, including evil.
I have to respect Pastor Doug Wilson because he's one of the few calvinists willing to admit this openly.
Most skirt around the issue.
But, indeed, this is what John Calvin also taught.
God predestines everything, including each individual's salvation or to damnation.

The following is from the Institutes of Calvin
Book 3, Chapter 23, paragraph 5

5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

OK. You want to use Adam as an example of 'free will' But, the serpent was in the garden. The serpent worked on Eve's will. The serpent put pressure on Even and seduced her and deceived her will. She exercised her will, but it wasn't free. Things occurred that pressured her to it.

Then here she comes to Adam, a fallen woman. Under the death penalty now. She offers to Adam the fruit also. What is Adam's will? Does he eat or refuse? Does he go tell God what Eve did? What is Adam's will? Adam loves Eve. What does he do? Adam is between a rock and a hard place. His will is being acted on and pressured from outside forces. His will is that Eve never ate that fruit. But he is not going to get his will. He has to decide. Go down with Eve and be with her in judgement. Or lose her in obedience to the command not to eat.

His will was exercised, but it was not 'free'. Only God has free will. God is never between a rock and a hard place.

Quantrill

Eve's will was free to choose to eat or not to eat.
She chose to eat, seeing that it looked good.
Same for Adam. He could have said NO to Eve, instead he also chose to eat and caused the fall of mankind to the power of satan.
We all have outside forces INFLUENCING our free will....but outside forces do no coerce our free will. They do not force us or threaten us.
We are free to choose to act or omit action.

What y ou mean is that God is not subject to any outside influence.
If this is what you mean, then you're right.
But man is not God.

Man is a free moral agent/person.
See verses such as:
John 7:17
. 17“If anyone is willing to do His will, .....

It is JESUS telling those to whom He is preaching that if they are WILLING to do God's will...
A person must be willing to do something...this implies free will to either comply or not comply.

So, to sum up:


1. God knows the future but does not create the future.
God does not predestine everything, but leaves nature and man free to function as they will.

2. Man was given free will in the Garden of Eden and it was never taken away. Man has free will to this day
to either act morally or sinfully...the choice belongs to each individual.

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't your last two sentences nullify the middle four?

Those judged worthy of eternal life will not be able to talk with those thrown in the lake of fire.

I didn't state that those worthy of eternal life will be able to speak to those in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Quantrill]

It sounds to me like you're speaking about open theism and closed theism.
It questions whether or not God knows the future or if He knows things as both He and His creation (us) go along in time.

I never said God sees the future and so acts upon it.
I've been saying that God KNOWS the future because He sees all time, everything in time, all at once.

If this cannot be understood by you, then it's useless to keep repeating the same explanation over and over again.
I feel that you have your belief so firm in your mind that it's not possible for you to understand me.
I'm sorry I can't do any better to make you understand.


Everything is going to go as God planned/plans.
Every Christian agrees with this. Nothing happens that God does not allow.

I believe the difference here is that YOU believe that God DETERMINES EVERYTHING that will happen.
IOW...HE predestines everything.
If this is what you believe then you must also believe that God causes all evil to happen.
There are some in the reformed faith that believe this...that God causes all to happen, both good and evil.

I do not learn this from the bible.
I learn that God exists and loves His creation and interacts with it in different ways.
I also learn that satan exists and pours his evil ways onto nature and men, and thus evil exists.

Calvinists, OTOH, believe that God creates everything, including evil.
I have to respect Pastor Doug Wilson because he's one of the few calvinists willing to admit this openly.
Most skirt around the issue.
But, indeed, this is what John Calvin also taught.
God predestines everything, including each individual's salvation or to damnation.

The following is from the Institutes of Calvin
Book 3, Chapter 23, paragraph 5

5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

Eve's will was free to choose to eat or not to eat.
She chose to eat, seeing that it looked good.
Same for Adam. He could have said NO to Eve, instead he also chose to eat and caused the fall of mankind to the power of satan.
We all have outside forces INFLUENCING our free will....but outside forces do no coerce our free will. They do not force us or threaten us.
We are free to choose to act or omit action.

What y ou mean is that God is not subject to any outside influence.
If this is what you mean, then you're right.
But man is not God.

Man is a free moral agent/person.
See verses such as:
John 7:17
. 17“If anyone is willing to do His will, .....

It is JESUS telling those to whom He is preaching that if they are WILLING to do God's will...
A person must be willing to do something...this implies free will to either comply or not comply.

So, to sum up:


1. God knows the future but does not create the future.
God does not predestine everything, but leaves nature and man free to function as they will.

2. Man was given free will in the Garden of Eden and it was never taken away. Man has free will to this day
to either act morally or sinfully...the choice belongs to each individual.

Yes, we all have outside forces influencing our will. That is why it is not free will.

God doesn't have outside forces influencing His will. Does He? No, He doesn't. That's why His will is 'free'.

I am not interested in defending Calvinism. I agree with much of it but not all of it.

1.) If God knows the future but did not create the future, then the future was out of His control. Your statement makes no sense.

2.) Man's will was never taken away. He never had free will.

Is God's will free?

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we all have outside forces influencing our will. That is why it is not free will.

God doesn't have outside forces influencing His will. Does He? No, He doesn't. That's why His will is 'free'.

I am not interested in defending Calvinism. I agree with much of it but not all of it.

1.) If God knows the future but did not create the future, then the future was out of His control. Your statement makes no sense.

2.) Man's will was never taken away. He never had free will.

Is God's will free?

Quantrill

I'm sorry Quantrill, but you have an idea of free will that I'm not familiar with.
Only God is totally free from any outside influence.
Agreed.

Man does have outside influences but his will is still free because has the OPTION to CHOOSE between
two or more choices. He chooses one...but could just as easily have chosen the other. In this way we can
say that our will is free from coercion or force.

If we were forced to make a choice..THEN it would not be free.

If we are not forced or coerced to make a decision,,then we can say it is free; even though it will be
influenced in some way - either by our morals or our experiences or by our desires.

IOW...I could phone you right now
or I could not.
This is a free will choice.

If someone put a gun to my head and told me to phone Quantrill
it would NOT be a free will choice.



As to calvinism...my biggest argument with that theology is that it states that God decides who will be saved
and who will be damned forever. This is not the God I know from reading the bible.

 

[Hopeful]

I didn't state that those worthy of eternal life will be able to speak to those in the Lake of Fire.

But they will be able to talk with those in hell?
I cant imagine the anguish of the righteous while watching the fallen that they love suffer before the final judgement.
God wouldn't make that happen.
Jesus' parable was a lesson: that being, "we get one chance to do things right".

 

[for_his_glory]

I wasn't going there. I asked you if you believed satan trumped God in the Garden. Did he?

Quantrill

No one can trump the hand of God. If we fail the test God sets before us then we are not being faithful to His commands.

 

[GodsGrace]

But they will be able to talk with those in hell?
I cant imagine the anguish of the righteous while watching the fallen that they love suffer before the final judgement.
God wouldn't make that happen.
Jesus' parable was a lesson: that being, "we get one chance to do things right".

Who said "they" will be able to talk to those in hell?
Certainly not me.
I t hink I have a problem explaining myself to you.

As to what God would make happen, or not make happen...
I think we should leave that up to God since He has His own reasons and plans for us.
I believe there will be MUCH anguish at the last judgement, and even immediately after death.
Many that do not believe will become instant believers, but it will be too late for them.

As to Luke 16:19-31....Lazarus and the Rich Man....many theologians believe this was not a parable but the telling
of how life was after death at that point in time.

Did you know that the dead in Christ were awaiting His death and resurrection?
Heaven's gates were closed to us until then....
So we waited in Abraham's Bossom (Hades) as is described in Luke 16.

 

[Quantrill]

I'm sorry Quantrill, but you have an idea of free will that I'm not familiar with.
Only God is totally free from any outside influence.
Agreed.

Man does have outside influences but his will is still free because has the OPTION to CHOOSE between
two or more choices. He chooses one...but could just as easily have chosen the other. In this way we can
say that our will is free from coercion or force.

If we were forced to make a choice..THEN it would not be free.

If we are not forced or coerced to make a decision,,then we can say it is free; even though it will be
influenced in some way - either by our morals or our experiences or by our desires.

IOW...I could phone you right now
or I could not.
This is a free will choice.

If someone put a gun to my head and told me to phone Quantrill
it would NOT be a free will choice.



As to calvinism...my biggest argument with that theology is that it states that God decides who will be saved
and who will be damned forever. This is not the God I know from reading the bible.

You say 'only God is free from outside influence'. Which means only God has 'free will'.

You then say man does have outside influences but still has 'free will'. So what is different in 'God's will' and 'mans will'. As you have described them the same.

We 'are' forced to make a choice. What makes you think you do not have to make a choice?

Again, just because you have a will, doesn't mean it is free will.

As I said earlier, the man of the world, of satan, doesn't want to make a choice. He doesn't want God. And, he doesn't want to go to hell. But, not choosing, is choosing. In other words, 'gun to the head'.

I am not interested in defending Calvinism, but I would ask, if God is not the One Who decides who will be saved...who does?

Quantrill