Message to GOD"S elect

[George Muller]

The scriptures show in absolute and in clear terms that all that are saved where "predestined" it cannot be challenged by such a silly term as "free-will".

What scriptures?? If the chosen are predestined then so is our pain and suffering, which doesn't make sense. Because there's no growth in our suffering if we all knew it was predestined.

Not sure of your point? The term "predestined" is to be understood in its context, to be conformed unto the Image of Christ. Of course as Christ was "predestined" to suffer, we are also to suffer with Him in the process of being conformed to His Image.

I'm talking about God's people being predestined to be chosen. I think that's false. If God already hand picked his people throughout time, then what's the point of preaching his Word. Do you think Romans 10:9 is a choice we make. (because, IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) Did Christ not CHOOSE to suffer, because of love.

Well Dave, I speak in terms of the scriptures, not what "you" think but what the scriptures prove. "if" is based upon a response to the conviction of GODS WILL, The HOLY SPIRIT, showing us the "sin" of SELF-WILL. It its Gods Will that we surrender too. So "free-will" proves only disobedience, not obedience.

 

[George Muller]

The scriptures show in absolute and in clear terms that all that are saved where "predestined" it cannot be challenged by such a silly term as "free-will".

Yes, it does. I don't hear anyone denying that fact.

What is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Does God COMMAND all people to be saved and NOT GIVE them away to do that?

God says to RECONCIL ourselves to Him. But not give a way to do that???

That is the scripture that few of the Calvinist can explain. What could they say?

One Calvinist did explain that and preached against regeneration (salvation) before faith! His name was SPURGEON. He laid the blame on man for not being saved. That is the truth, it is man's fault if he does not accept the Lord. Spurgeon, that if a man does not, it because he "would not".
Many say, that he "could not". It is man's fault, NOT God's fault.

Accepting Jesus, is a command, repenting is a command. There's nothing wishy-washy about it. Accepting Jesus, is not about feelings, or pride, or any such man nonsense. God just said "Do it!" Trust God that Jesus is the Savior and trust Him. Put your trust in Him. God already reconciled Himself to the world through His Son, now we are to reconcile ourselves to that truth. God will change the heart of stone.

I did not see a scripture? Quote the scripture and then we can discuss it in its context. But just because some have questions they cannot understand does not prove anything, but Gods wisdom and great salvation is hidden from those who boast and is made known unto the humble. It is impossible for the pride of mans religion to understand the mystery, so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed".

"so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed"

Seeing that is your attitude, not bother.

Of course the scriptures are the evidence, and those who are self-willed cannot discuss the scriptures in context and maintain such a unbiblical idea of "free-will" its a silly biblical term in context of obedience to the WILL OF GOD. "WALKING IN THE SPIRIT" BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT are exact opposite of mans "will". It is walking in the will of God, that is obedience.

 

[Guest]

Well Dave, I speak in terms of the scriptures, not what "you" think but what the scriptures prove. "if" is based upon a response to the conviction of GODS WILL, The HOLY SPIRIT, showing us the "sin" of SELF-WILL. It its Gods Will that we surrender too. So "free-will" proves only disobedience, not obedience.

What do the scriptures prove? Show me scripture that says the unbeliever does not have a choice to choose God or the world. I believe not coming to faith is a choice a person makes.

 

[George Muller]

Well Dave, I speak in terms of the scriptures, not what "you" think but what the scriptures prove. "if" is based upon a response to the conviction of GODS WILL, The HOLY SPIRIT, showing us the "sin" of SELF-WILL. It its Gods Will that we surrender too. So "free-will" proves only disobedience, not obedience.

What do the scriptures prove? Show me scripture that says the unbeliever does not have a choice to choose God or the world. I believe not coming to faith is a choice a person makes.

Well that is another issue, and no man can come unless he is drawn by the Holy Spirit, nor can any be saved except they receive the Spirit. But that is not my point, my point is that "free-will" proves only that man can disobey, it is not biblical obedience to Gods Will. It is a silly unbiblical term made-up in the mind of carnal religious people.

 

[JLB]

So instead of answering the simple question, you are going to talk in circles.

They were created in the image of God sinless, and had the benefit of eternal life.

Not circles JLB, the garden is a picture of "grace" with Christ the Tree of life, "free-will" is the tree of knowledge of good and evil "law" . In "grace" humility we are in a position that cannot fail. Only in self-will "you can be as God" is the disobedience of man. Open your mind and heart to the truth, admit your weakness and God will secure you in His Grace.

We're Adam and Eve God's elect on the day they were created?

Yes or No.

If you don't know, then just say so


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I did not see a scripture? Quote the scripture and then we can discuss it in its context. But just because some have questions they cannot understand does not prove anything, but Gods wisdom and great salvation is hidden from those who boast and is made known unto the humble. It is impossible for the pride of mans religion to understand the mystery, so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed".

"so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed"

Seeing that is your attitude, not bother.

Of course the scriptures are the evidence, and those who are self-willed cannot discuss the scriptures in context and maintain such a unbiblical idea of "free-will" its a silly biblical term in context of obedience to the WILL OF GOD. "WALKING IN THE SPIRIT" BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT are exact opposite of mans "will". It is walking in the will of God, that is obedience.

So let's take the most Law people. The children of Israel, during the Mosaic Age. When they chose not to obey God, then they were operating with their will? But when they chose to obey God, they weren't operating with their will?

 

[mondar]

Spurgeon is not saying that regeneration is the same thing as salvation.

Of course Spurgeon believes that all who are regenerated are saved. I do too. That is painfully obvious. On the other hand, neither Spurgeon nor I are saying that Regeneration or Salvation are the same thing.

I say "all the regenerate are saved." Then I say, regeneration and salvation are not the same thing. Then I can offer evidence.

Here is evidence.... Regeneration is solely an act of the Holy Spirit and not the Father or the Son. In salvation, the entire trinity has different roles. The roles are cooperative. The Father sent the Son, the Son died, and the Holy Spirit regenerates. All three actions are a part of salvation.

Now in your theology, since salvation and regeneration are the same thing, recognizing that the Holy Spirit alone is the agent of regeneration, then the Holy Spirit is the sole agent of salvation in your theology. That means Christ shed his blood for nothing because Christ has nothing to do with salvation, because regeneration and salvation are the same thing. Christ did not regenerate anyone ever. Now of course you will not say this, but you will continue to imply it by insisting that regeneration and salvation are the same thing. Titus 3:5 demands that your theology is very sub biblical.

The problem is that you yourself still do not know the difference between biblical terms. All those "justified" are saved. That does not mean Justification is the same identical thing as salvation. But that is another discussion that you would be confused and sub-biblical on. We could discuss the High Priestly ministry of Christ in Hebrews, and how anyone that is a part of Christs ministry their is saved, but that does not mean that salvation and Christs High priestly ministry is the same thing.

Well, I am done. Later.

 

[George Muller]

I did not see a scripture? Quote the scripture and then we can discuss it in its context. But just because some have questions they cannot understand does not prove anything, but Gods wisdom and great salvation is hidden from those who boast and is made known unto the humble. It is impossible for the pride of mans religion to understand the mystery, so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed".

"so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed"

Seeing that is your attitude, not bother.

Of course the scriptures are the evidence, and those who are self-willed cannot discuss the scriptures in context and maintain such a unbiblical idea of "free-will" its a silly biblical term in context of obedience to the WILL OF GOD. "WALKING IN THE SPIRIT" BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT are exact opposite of mans "will". It is walking in the will of God, that is obedience.

So let's take the most Law people. The children of Israel, during the Mosaic Age. When they chose not to obey God, then they were operating with their will? But when they chose to obey God, they weren't operating with their will?

Of course "free-will" explains only disobedience. Obedience is walking in Gods "will". I know this is not as hard to understand as some of you are trying to make it. Israel was obedient when they walked according to Gods Will, not their own "free-will"

 

[George Muller]

So instead of answering the simple question, you are going to talk in circles.

They were created in the image of God sinless, and had the benefit of eternal life.

Not circles JLB, the garden is a picture of "grace" with Christ the Tree of life, "free-will" is the tree of knowledge of good and evil "law" . In "grace" humility we are in a position that cannot fail. Only in self-will "you can be as God" is the disobedience of man. Open your mind and heart to the truth, admit your weakness and God will secure you in His Grace.

We're Adam and Eve God's elect on the day they were created?

Yes or No.

If you don't know, then just say so


JLB

Unlike many I do not like to go beyond what the scriptures declare, and as I have said over and over election is based upon the grace of God, in grace "election" is made, and according to grace ones "election" is made sure. Now only those who reject Grace are in danger of rejecting the "election" of God.

 

[George Muller]

there is a principle that runs throughout the New Testament, that Christ did not come to condemn but to save. In grace He saves all who humble themselves to receive His grace. Now Just as He told the Pharisee, "I do not accuse you, it is Moses in whom you trust that accuses you" so it is that those who turn from grace back to law, by there own "free-will" choose to be condemned by the law. Disobedience and "free-will" go hand in hand. So reap what you sow.

 

[JLB]

So instead of answering the simple question, you are going to talk in circles.

They were created in the image of God sinless, and had the benefit of eternal life.

Not circles JLB, the garden is a picture of "grace" with Christ the Tree of life, "free-will" is the tree of knowledge of good and evil "law" . In "grace" humility we are in a position that cannot fail. Only in self-will "you can be as God" is the disobedience of man. Open your mind and heart to the truth, admit your weakness and God will secure you in His Grace.

We're Adam and Eve God's elect on the day they were created?

Yes or No.

If you don't know, then just say so


JLB

Unlike many I do not like to go beyond what the scriptures declare, and as I have said over and over election is based upon the grace of God, in grace "election" is made, and according to grace ones "election" is made sure. Now only those who reject Grace are in danger of rejecting the "election" of God.

Adam and Eve were in a state of sinless perfection because they were created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam knew God as Father. Adam was God's son.

38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38

Adam was in a sinless state of being on the day he was created, as it was intended for him live.

Adam was "saved", until he disobeyed.

Adam was chosen to be created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam would only die if he disobeyed.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

What would make you think Adam was not God's elect?

If you have trouble seeing from the scriptures that Adam was God's elect, then how could your judgment be trusted to discern who God's elect is today.

How is it that you know who God's elect are and are not, George?

Because you say who they are?


JLB

 

[George Muller]

We're Adam and Eve God's elect on the day they were created?

Yes or No.

If you don't know, then just say so


JLB

Unlike many I do not like to go beyond what the scriptures declare, and as I have said over and over election is based upon the grace of God, in grace "election" is made, and according to grace ones "election" is made sure. Now only those who reject Grace are in danger of rejecting the "election" of God.

Adam and Eve were in a state of sinless perfection because they were created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam knew God as Father. Adam was God's son.

38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38

Adam was in a sinless state of being on the day he was created, as it was intended for him live.

Adam was "saved", until he disobeyed.

Adam was chosen to be created in the image and likeness of God.

Adam would only die if he disobeyed.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

What would make you think Adam was not God's elect?

If you have trouble seeing from the scriptures that Adam was God's elect, then how could your judgment be trusted to discern who God's elect is today.

How is it that you know who God's elect are and are not, George?

Because you say who they are?


JLB

Not sure what point you "think" you are making? Of course the term "elect" means "selected" from others in some way, you do understand that Adam was alone on the earth? Of course in effect he was elect, but as I said over and over that "election" is based upon grace. When he was deceived to walk in "free-will" we "fell from grace". Now if you have a point to make? please make it. To this point you seem to only be going in a circle of your own lack of biblical understanding.

 

[Deborah13]

Now in your theology, since salvation and regeneration are the same thing, recognizing that the Holy Spirit alone is the agent of regeneration, then the Holy Spirit is the sole agent of salvation in your theology

No, that's not my theology. You might think of asking? I was just saying that regeneration if one is regenerated they are saved. I don't think regeneration happens without hearing the Gospel.

I am justified (made righteous) and sanctified, in Christ. His righteousness and His holiness. That is my position, in Christ.
I am an almost, OSAS person, my theology.

This is what I believe.

The Father draws.
The Word of God, the Gospel message of Christ Crucified gives faith
The Holy Spirit regenerates, new creature in Christ
God's love brings us to repentance.

The technical order of things may not be right but God does it, in His grace and mercy, His amazing love.

We could discuss the High Priestly ministry of Christ in Hebrews, and how anyone that is a part of Christs ministry their is saved, but that does not mean that salvation and Christs High priestly ministry is the same thing.

I don't know what you mean. I'm listening.

 

[JLB]

Of course in effect he was elect, but as I said over and over that "election" is based upon grace.

Of course "in effect" he was elect?

George, Adam was the only human son of God on the earth.

You seem to have difficulty in coming to a conclusion about whether Adam was God's elect or not.

If we are to understand your doctrine of "election", it would be good to know from the bible who you consider to be elect.

If you don't have biblical understanding to know whether or not Adam was considered God's elect, then how will you teach us who God's elect is from the scriptures.

As all can see, I'm not going in a circle, I am asking one question.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

George, Adam was the only human son of God on the earth.

Do you understand the term means to "select" from others? So again what is your point, he fell from grace into "free-will"

 

[JLB]

he fell from grace into "free-will"

Show me the scripture that says Adam fell from grace into free will.


JLB

 

[Eventide]

All of this nonsense just so that men can boast that GOD CHOSE THEM...

They can't believe on their own, and they mock those who say that they do believe the gospel... once again, simply so that they can hold on to their man made doctrine that THEY are the LIMITED UNCONDITIONALLY ELECT.

That is ALL that this is about.

 

[JLB]

you do understand that Adam was alone on the earth?

Was Adam predestined to be conformed to the Image of God's Son?

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29

Adam was selected from among many of whom God foreknew to be conformed to the image of His Son.



JLB

 

[George Muller]

you do understand that Adam was alone on the earth?

Was Adam predestined to be conformed to the Image of God's Son?

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29

Adam was selected from among many of whom God foreknew to be conformed to the image of His Son.



JLB

You do understand that it is through the Cross of Christ that we are brought into His Image? So again your lack of basic biblical understanding and the whole meaning of Adams fall, and why the Lord died to redeem us unto Sons of God, leaves little room to discuss the truth of these things. I can only suggest you STOP trying to teach others and teach yourself.

 

[George Muller]

he fell from grace into "free-will"

Show me the scripture that says Adam fell from grace into free will.


JLB

Well I cannot "make" you believe what you refuse to understand. It is clear and evident to all who have an honest desire to know the truth.