Message to GOD"S elect

[George Muller]

Why does everything with you seem to be associated with the Law?

Adam chose to disobey God thousands of years before the Law.

This statement alone, makes everything you just said unreliable.






Show me in my post # 126 which you just quoted, where I used the term "free will".

You seem to have run out of any truth to respond with.


JLB

You used the term "witchcraft" I gave a biblical response to How Paul used the term. Yes "free-will" has a direct link to the flesh. Which is related directly to those who trust in their own ability, of course you would not understand that relationship.

Yes "free-will" always disobeys , and the reason for the law was to prove to man that he could not obey.


If you have now rejected the unbiblical term "free-will" then I have done a honest bit of work, glad you reject that term as well. Too bad it is taught in most churches.

I haven't seen any "biblical" response from you on witchcraft.

Yes "free-will" has a direct link to the flesh. Which is related directly to those who trust in their own ability, of course you would not understand that relationship.

Please show the scripture that states free will has a direct link to the flesh.

Please show where the only purpose of witchcraft is to turn people to the law of Moses.


JLB

Ga 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Faith is here equal to the Spirit, law is equated to the flesh. Paul uses this term, translated as bewitched, to suggest a form of evil power that is used to manipulate others from the truth.

And of course I did not suggest this is the only form of "witchcraft" but no doubt it is the most common in the church.

 

[George Muller]

One can choose their own will, or to surrender to Gods Will. If one "chooses to walk in their own free will, that is disobedience.

If one surrenders to the Will of God, that is surrendered will and obedience.

You using an unbiblical term. "Surrendered will" is not listed in the scriptures. In fact, the word surrender is not listed in the New Testament.

Whether I use the term free will, or you use the term surrendered will, the both mean that a person has a choice.

A person has the ability to choose to obey God's will.

A person has the ability to choose to obey Satan's will.

A person has the ability to choose to obey their own will.


JLB

'Surrendered will': how about: 'Thy will be done'.

Yes of course its a very biblical term to use, but as often happens on these forums the point of truth is often confused, by the deception of the scribe.

Mr 12:13 ¶ And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

 

[JLB]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

Is this passage, Paul refers to the election as the natural offspring of Abraham and the fathers.

He makes a distinction between the Roman Christians and the natural offspring of the fathers.

Paul is calling them the elect.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

Is this passage, Paul refers to the election as the natural offspring of Abraham and the fathers.

He makes a distinction between the Roman Christians and the natural offspring of the fathers.

Paul is calling them the elect.


JLB

Again there seems to be a lack of basic understanding of biblical terms? The term "elect" means those that God has chosen "picked" by His Will. Now to some how focus upon this scripture as if it any way restricts Gods "election" of the Gentiles, is just silly

 

[Deborah13]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

Is this passage, Paul refers to the election as the natural offspring of Abraham and the fathers.

He makes a distinction between the Roman Christians and the natural offspring of the fathers.

Paul is calling them the elect.


JLB

I agree for in this particular scripture. In Ephesians 1:1-14, he speaks of the chosen and predestined, as the Apostles. At least that is how I read it.

 

[JLB]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

Is this passage, Paul refers to the election as the natural offspring of Abraham and the fathers.

He makes a distinction between the Roman Christians and the natural offspring of the fathers.

Paul is calling them the elect.


JLB

Again there seems to be a lack of basic understanding of biblical terms? The term "elect" means those that God has chosen "picked" by His Will. Now to some how focus upon this scripture as if it any way restricts Gods "election" of the Gentiles, is just silly

Well, Paul uses the term election here to describe the natural offspring of the Fathers.

We know that the covenant The Lord made with Abraham, certainly included Gentiles.

When we as gentiles confess Jesus as Lord we are now grafted in that group of the elect ones.

This is the "basic" understanding that comes from the scriptures.

If they are called elect, as the natural offspring of the fathers, then who was the elect before the fathers?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Ye have NOT choosen me but I have choosen you and ordained you..........John 15:16

Keep reading, who did Jesus say He chose in this scripture? Keep reading.....

John 15:22-27 NASV
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have [f]sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have [g]sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’
26 “When the [h]Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 [i]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Who was with Him from the beginning? The Apostles

This is not to say that there are not other scriptures that may fit with what you believe. Just that this one does not.

 

[Deborah13]

Christ does not pray for all men (John 17:9 and 20). If he did none would perish.

I agree, Jesus was not praying for the world (unbelievers) but even in these scriptures there are two distinct groups He prays for.

John 17 NASV
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

The Apostles, How do we know who He is speaking of, because...

12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the [c]son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

Still speaking of the Apostles. But the next verse we see, all believers who come to Him "by grace, through faith, not works".

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me.

So here He prays for all who will come to Him in Faith, believing the words of the Apostles about Him. Why? "so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

 

[Deborah13]

This is the work of God, that you believe in him..........Only in him. Romans 8:10 thru 20 says there are NONE seek God, nor does Good.

I agree with this scripture....

John 6 NASV
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?†29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.â€

Romans 8:10 thru 20 says there are NONE seek God, nor does Good.

Romans 8 NASV
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

If one is walking in the flesh surely they cannot please God, they subjecting themselves to the law of God.

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is [d]alive because of righteousness.

Christ's righteousness, the Holy Spirit in us, gives us the ability to walk in the Spirit. However, there is nothing here that says, one cannot seek God. However, I do believe that no one can come to God without Him drawing them.

 

[farouk]

Christ does not pray for all men (John 17:9 and 20). If he did none would perish.

I agree, Jesus was not praying for the world (unbelievers) but even in these scriptures there are two distinct groups He prays for.

John 17 NASV
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

The Apostles, How do we know who He is speaking of, because...

12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the [c]son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

Still speaking of the Apostles. But the next verse we see, all believers who come to Him "by grace, through faith, not works".

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me.

So here He prays for all who will come to Him in Faith, believing the words of the Apostles about Him. Why? "so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

John 17 has a very previous account of the very special relationship which the Lord has with His people.

Blessings.

 

[George Muller]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

Is this passage, Paul refers to the election as the natural offspring of Abraham and the fathers.

He makes a distinction between the Roman Christians and the natural offspring of the fathers.

Paul is calling them the elect.


JLB

Again there seems to be a lack of basic understanding of biblical terms? The term "elect" means those that God has chosen "picked" by His Will. Now to some how focus upon this scripture as if it any way restricts Gods "election" of the Gentiles, is just silly

Well, Paul uses the term election here to describe the natural offspring of the Fathers.

We know that the covenant The Lord made with Abraham, certainly included Gentiles.

When we as gentiles confess Jesus as Lord we are now grafted in that group of the elect ones.

This is the "basic" understanding that comes from the scriptures.

If they are called elect, as the natural offspring of the fathers, then who was the elect before the fathers?


JLB

So what? The term is used throughout the New Testament to describe Gods "choice" in that He selects and picks those who are His. So not sure you even understand how this term is used or even what it means? Get out of that religious debate mindset and you might understand that the "BIBLE" describes what the bible means, not religious tradition.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Read the book, it explains itself

 

[Deborah13]

So then it is not of him that WILLITH nor of him that runneth but of God that shows mercy..........Romans 9:16

My understanding of this scripture, is that one cannot work for their salvation, that salvation comes only because God had mercy on us. That's just on what you quoted yourself

For the children being not yet born, neither having done good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works but of him who calls...Romans 9:11

I don't believe one can a full understanding this verse without the knowledge of the OT scriptures about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But basically, short version, I believe that Paul is once again teaching that works will not save one, that faith in God is the only way to be saved.

Abraham had two sons. Ishmael by the flesh, Isaac by faith.
Isaac love Esau because in feed his flesh, Esau gave up his birthright to feed his flesh.
Rebecca, in faith, believed God, "the older shall serve the younger" she acted on that faith.
Jacob received the birthright because of faith. From him God produced the 12 tribes.

Do you see, flesh v faith. works v belief (faith) "works of the flesh or not of faith"

 

[Deborah13]

@Deborah13 :

John 17 has a very previous account of the very special relationship which the Lord has with His people.

Blessings.

I agree that when we by His grace through faith we enter into that relationship that the Apostles had with Jesus by their belief, we are blessed with a the blessings of God. BUT imo, in relationship to THAT scripture and who Jesus was saying that God had given Him (chosen, predestined), in THAT scripture, He was speaking about the Apostles.

If you see that I am missing something please correct me, with specific language in the scripture, so that I will know the truth of that scripture.

Thanks and blessing to you, too.

 

[josefnospam]

To Deborah13 Romans 9:16 This verse says PLAINLY says "it is not him that willith" Very plain ......... And John 1:13 says "which were born NOT of Blood, nor of the WILL of the flesh ,NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God. This is what the scriptures say. AS for faith. We know that strictly speaking, it is not our faith that saves us. Faith did not keep the law for me. Christ did! Faith did not die on the cross for my sins. Christ did! Faith was not raised from the dead, Christ was! Yet the Lord says "Thy faith hath saved thee "...Luke 18:42. Why does the saviour put this high honor on our faith? Because faith looks to Christ alone! It rests in him only, and looks nowhere else. It gives ALL the honor of Salvation to Christ! A faith that does not do that is not saving faith to begin with. Christ puts such honor on faith because true faith puts all honor on HIM. You either glory in what he does or in what someone else does.
It is his will (the fathers) that Christ lose nothing ..."And this is the fathers will which has sent me, that all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing" ....John 1:39, and he will not lose even one person he came to save and paid the price in blood for. WE are paid for with a great price....The death of Christ on the cross and God will NEVER fail to save someone due to a mans choice or decision.

Jesus Christ is holy God, ruling on His throne , right now doing with his creation whatever he wants. We are the clay in the potters hands made for
his purpose and some are made vessels of wrath while others are vessels he has had mercy on. Romans 9:21 thru 23

We as his blood bought children should EMBRACE and delight in those wonderfull scriptures and verses that talk of his Soverign will and Saving Grace for HIS people and I rejoice that he included me and hopefully you. Our God is MIGHTY and powerfull and able to Save all his people.

Finally I cannot make you or anyone else see or understand anything. Im a sinner just like everyone else. I CAN however,quote the scriptures, faithfully as he allows me to do so, and while they cannot save you they speak of the one who can. Salvation belongs to God, through his mecry and his grace and ONLY he can give you the new spirit . May God richly Bless you!

 

[George Muller]

Why does the saviour put this high honor on our faith? Because faith looks to Christ alone! It rests in him only, and looks nowhere else. It gives ALL the honor of Salvation to Christ! A faith that does not do that is not saving faith to begin with. Christ puts such honor on faith because true faith puts all honor on HIM. You either glory in what he does or in what someone else does.

Wow josefnospam, a true believer! You are blessed...:amen

 

[Deborah13]

Finally I cannot make you or anyone else see or understand anything. Im a sinner just like everyone else. I CAN however,quote the scriptures, faithfully as he allows me to do so, and while they cannot save you they speak of the one who can. Salvation belongs to God, through his mecry and his grace and ONLY he can give you the new spirit . May God richly Bless you!

You know, I want to tell you that I believe that you truly love God and you love others, I hear in all your posts. Because of your humble attitude I find it difficult to address differences of doctrine with you.

We know that strictly speaking, it is not our faith that saves us.

Of coarse not, it was only the work of Christ that saves us. Most people who say faith alone, do not mean literally faith alone they include grace, and they do not mean that is what literally saved them. They know that it is only by the blood of the Lamb that they are saved. If one has faith in Jesus and His work, that is what their faith is directed towards, not the faith itself, or the grace itself. Faith and grace, cannot be a sacrifice for sin and be a Redeemer.

When one hears that statement "faith alone" it is usually saying "not works". We can not be saved by what we do, we must have faith in Jesus and His work.

John 6:38-40 KJV
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is one of my very favorite scriptures. In this one statement we have security in knowing that if we Believe (have faith) on Him, we will have everlasting life.

What does foreknowledge mean to you?

 

[JLB]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31

Is this passage, Paul refers to the election as the natural offspring of Abraham and the fathers.

He makes a distinction between the Roman Christians and the natural offspring of the fathers.

Paul is calling them the elect.


JLB

Again there seems to be a lack of basic understanding of biblical terms? The term "elect" means those that God has chosen "picked" by His Will. Now to some how focus upon this scripture as if it any way restricts Gods "election" of the Gentiles, is just silly

Well, Paul uses the term election here to describe the natural offspring of the Fathers.

We know that the covenant The Lord made with Abraham, certainly included Gentiles.

When we as gentiles confess Jesus as Lord we are now grafted in that group of the elect ones.

This is the "basic" understanding that comes from the scriptures.

If they are called elect, as the natural offspring of the fathers, then who was the elect before the fathers?


JLB

So what? The term is used throughout the New Testament to describe Gods "choice" in that He selects and picks those who are His. So not sure you even understand how this term is used or even what it means? Get out of that religious debate mindset and you might understand that the "BIBLE" describes what the bible means, not religious tradition.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Read the book, it explains itself

Again you make my point.

Jesus is the elect One, because we are in covenant with Him we are elect.

Because we are in Christ, as the elect, does not erase the truth of what Paul has stated in Romans -

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:28-31


JLB

 

[josefnospam]

Deborah13 thank you for your kind words.............. If one truely loves God on his terms and belongs to him, then you will see that love for the breathen expressed in what he says and does. I would not want to offend someone who dis-agrees with me on a doctrinal point because that person may surpass where I am in my personal walk with God. Woe to me if I offend one of his children. However the truth about the wonderuss doctrine that God has choosen a special people for himself, before he created the earth, came to die for that group, did so and secured their Salvation is the most hated and dispised doctrine of men who do not believe only in him, and the most precious and beloved doctrine of those he gives his spirit to. Men will FIGHT against the truth, and they(men ) even killed God because they did not believe him.
If anyone glories in what he has done, he is decieved and still under God's wrath. These are harsh words to many but God knows who are his and who are not. Therefore with Love and great patience, his people will speak ONLY of Jesus Christ and HIS work, His honor and his glory and when men rail on them or argue with them about such deep moving wonderfull truths We know that all things work to the good of God's elect and God will not fail to save all who are his. Were not perfect and make mistakes daily, and know only what God wants us to know. It is enough!! And we are no longer under the Law but Grace.

If you have a doctrinal difference with me feel free to state your case, using Scriptures from the KJV. I would study and look at what was in the scriptures and If I am convinced that what I believe is wrong I would change instantly. However the one most taught widely used doctrine of man that he has enough Good to choose God and needs your permision or help before he can do something is a lie and there can be no compromise, or endless discussions about this subject. You either believe only in him, or you believe in him AND something you do, did, or will do or say. There is no
room and no compromise on this basic truth. I hope this was not to harse or to strong but it is the truth an supported by scriptures.
I do think there are some on this site who belong to him and I am thankfull for that. Some people have blasted me for even thinking that not everone who calls on his name is saved. They say I cast doubts about their choice or what they have done for Christ.
Matt 7:21 says "Not every one that saith unto me shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my father........Christ did the will of his father.
Verse 22.many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord Have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many woderfull works?
verse 23...... And then will I profess to them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So many people work iniquity while claiming his name. Claiming his name means nothing unless he knows you.

So sorry for the long post . I tend to talk too much but this matter of a mans will is of the highest importance today as the truth is rarely heard today and instead is replaced with a man glorifing doctrine of what the man did may do or will do or say.

I know his word will not return void. It will accomplish what he sent it out to do. If he used me to bring even one of his children into his marvolus light, I would be most humbled and thankfull for what he did and I would shout in joy and

 

[josefnospam]

FOREKNEW... Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son...
No where does this scripture say those he knew would make a choice by their freewill to allow him to do his will. This is the doctrine of men who want a part in their salvation. The scriptures do not say or support this awfull doctrine.

Those he knew before the world was formed, he predestinated to be his.

Moreover those he predestinated them, HE ALSO CALLED: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he aslo glorified.

What a beautifull verse. He knew who were his before the world was made. He predestinated them, called them, justified them and glorys in them.

This way God gets all the praise honor, glory and power that is his alone and his choosen, called elect precious blood bought people will ALWAYS give HIM all due his name. Come and hear all that fear God and I will declare what he has done for my soul........Pslm 67:16

He has saved my soul from that awfull pit of darkess and death, that all men are in and brought me into his light and gave me a new spirit and a new heart. What a GREAT and POWERFULL God we worship. Thou art worthy, O LORD to recieve glory and honor and power: for thou hast created ALL things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.............Revelations 4:11 Believe only in him........and I do as he allows and gives me the faith do so. - PS......good to know you a little and I do so hope you are his.

 

[josefnospam]

To George Muller...................Praise God.........