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Message to GOD"S elect

Eventide said:
The blatantly obvious point, in case anyone can't see it... Is that we are FREE to surrender our will so that His will is done.

The Spirit of God doesn't drag anyone to Christ as so many are taught in Calvinism... The Spirit is depicted as a DOVE to show how gentle He is.
Click to expand...
Eventide, the Holy Spirit was described as a dove for a reason, yes. But much is written and known about the Holy Spirit, that convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that some died at Peters rebuke, that some where made blind at the rebuke of Paul. He is gentle unto the humble and honest but the conviction and judgment he brings upon those in pride is well able to break the "self-will". Now I do not believe some are saved and elect, because they claim some doctrine, but because they have the Holy Spirit. "free-will" is not the biblical standard, The Cross and Gods Will as one "walks in the Spirit" is the biblical standard. "free to surrender" is not "free-will" We surrender because we know our will is not Gods will. The term "free-will" is just biblical ignorance.
 
George Muller said:
Eventide said:
The blatantly obvious point, in case anyone can't see it... Is that we are FREE to surrender our will so that His will is done.

The Spirit of God doesn't drag anyone to Christ as so many are taught in Calvinism... The Spirit is depicted as a DOVE to show how gentle He is.
Click to expand...
Eventide, the Holy Spirit was described as a dove for a reason, yes. But much is written and known about the Holy Spirit, that convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that some died at Peters rebuke, that some where made blind at the rebuke of Paul. He is gentle unto the humble and honest but the conviction and judgment he brings upon those in pride is well able to break the "self-will". Now I do not believe some are saved and elect, because they claim some doctrine, but because they have the Holy Spirit. "free-will" is not the biblical standard, The Cross and Gods Will as one "walks in the Spirit" is the biblical standard. "free to surrender" is not "free-will" We surrender because we know our will is not Gods will. The term "free-will" is just biblical ignorance.
Click to expand...

Lot of words here George... So to make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth... Are you suggesting that you are not free to surrender your will to God's will ? Are you going to say that you were forced to surrender your will... Like for example, that it's irresistable ?
 
Eventide said:
George Muller said:
Eventide said:
The blatantly obvious point, in case anyone can't see it... Is that we are FREE to surrender our will so that His will is done.

The Spirit of God doesn't drag anyone to Christ as so many are taught in Calvinism... The Spirit is depicted as a DOVE to show how gentle He is.
Click to expand...
Eventide, the Holy Spirit was described as a dove for a reason, yes. But much is written and known about the Holy Spirit, that convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that some died at Peters rebuke, that some where made blind at the rebuke of Paul. He is gentle unto the humble and honest but the conviction and judgment he brings upon those in pride is well able to break the "self-will". Now I do not believe some are saved and elect, because they claim some doctrine, but because they have the Holy Spirit. "free-will" is not the biblical standard, The Cross and Gods Will as one "walks in the Spirit" is the biblical standard. "free to surrender" is not "free-will" We surrender because we know our will is not Gods will. The term "free-will" is just biblical ignorance.
Click to expand...

Lot of words here George... So to make sure I'm not putting words in your mouth... Are you suggesting that you are not free to surrender your will to God's will ? Are you going to say that you were forced to surrender your will... Like for example, that it's irresistable ?
Click to expand...

I believe you see the clear point, but in our attempt to defend this unbiblical term, you attempt to make a unbiblical point. Free to surrender, is not free-will. It is to surrender the will to the Will of God. For me I consider my personal salvation to product of the overwhelming power of Gods Spirit and judgment against my "self-will" Paul would make this point as well, walking in his "free-will" he was brought unto the will of God, by Gods great and mighty power. This is true salvation, being "born-again" is a overwhelming act of Gods Will and power. For a group to somehow take credit for their own salvation, is just the supreme arrogance of mans flesh. Broken and humbled are the doors of salvation, those who claim they have walked unto the gates of salvation, upright in their own will, have not entered into the Kingdom of God, but have entered into mans religion. Unless one becomes as a child, they cannot enter.
 
Eventide said:
You're the elect of God because you trusted Christ like every other Christian and was then baptized into the body of the one who is the elect, The Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

I surrendered to Christ just as Paul did, just as the scriptures demand. I was baptized and sealed by the Holy Spirit, not by my will but by the will of God. According to the truth of scripture, I am elect, not based upon my will but Gods Will. Free-will proves man is disobedient nothing more, and it is a very unbiblical term to describe any aspect of a true Christian walk. It is a product of mans religion and mans carnal pride, and cannot be defended in a biblical debate. The Cross of Christ demands that every man and mans "will" bow to His Death, and walk in the "will" of Gods Spirit,(In HIS LIFE) this is the true faith, all else is just a bunch of nonsense created in the carnal mind of mans religion.
 
George Muller said:
According to the truth of scripture, I am elect, not based upon my will but Gods Will.
Click to expand...

That's true, you're the elect of God IN CHRIST, not because you we're unconditionally chosen, but rather because you trusted in Christ and was then baptized into the BODY of CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit.

As for you George, you are dead. You are crucified with Christ and nevertheless live, yet not You, but rather Christ in you.

See, it's not Christ and you, it's Christ in you.

Enormous difference to say the least.
 
IMO this is very simple to understand, although regardless of that my guess is simply that men can't accept it because it would mean that they were misled, or deceived, or they didn't quite understand correctly... Which are all perfectly normal Christian experiences...

edited
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Eventide said:
George Muller said:
According to the truth of scripture, I am elect, not based upon my will but Gods Will.
Click to expand...

That's true, you're the elect of God IN CHRIST, not because you we're unconditionally chosen, but rather because you trusted in Christ and was then baptized into the BODY of CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit.

As for you George, you are dead. You are crucified with Christ and nevertheless live, yet not You, but rather Christ in you.

See, it's not Christ and you, it's Christ in you.

Enormous difference to say the least.
Click to expand...
Eventide, if Election is on the basis of 100% Christ, then the conditions are 0% in us. Then since there are not conditions in us, it is unconditional election. I am guessing you might consider using the often repeated straw man argument here that then those that believe in unconditional election deny that one must have faith to be saved. Of course it is painfully obvious that this accusation is a false charge. We believe. We have faith. We have faith because we are elected to have faith. It was out there by God who elected us. Then election is totally by the will of God, or monergistic and God is fully responsible for salvation and should receive all the glory and credit for salvation.

On the other hand, if election is on the basis of foreseen faith, then election is synergistic, and election is by Christ and us together. It is then the synergistic cooperation of two wills. Then, of course, God is at least partially responsible for our salvation, and should receive at least partial credit for our salvation, and receive at least partial accolades for his part in our salvation. The rest of the glory should then go to the person who contributed faith to receive his election and salvation.

To God be all glory, and honor. Salvation, and election are of him alone.

Mondar
 
It's not complicated...

It's like what's better...

Christ being the Saviour of all men, or some men.

See, it's not complicated ;-)
 
mondar said:
We have faith because we are elected to have faith. It was out there by God who elected us. Then election is totally by the will of God, or monergistic and God is fully responsible for salvation and should receive all the glory and credit for salvation.

On the other hand, if election is on the basis of foreseen faith, then election is synergistic, and election is by Christ and us together. It is then the synergistic cooperation of two wills. Then, of course, God is at least partially responsible for our salvation, and should receive at least partial credit for our salvation, and receive at least partial accolades for his part in our salvation. The rest of the glory should then go to the person who contributed faith to receive his election and salvation.
Click to expand...

On the one hand - kudos to you - you explained your theology better than I have ever seen ANYONE explain it before.
On the other hand, - what you have done is twist and torment the Gift that is Jesus' sacrifice unlike I have seen since Charles Manson or David Korish. (Not sure on "Korish" for spelling.)
 
josefnospam said:
We are the elect of God from begining to end and belong to Our Lord and Saviour now and forever.
Click to expand...

We BECOME the elect when we choose to submit to the Lordship of the Elect One, and BECOME one with the Elect One.


JLB
 
mondar said:
Eventide said:
George Muller said:
According to the truth of scripture, I am elect, not based upon my will but Gods Will.
Click to expand...

That's true, you're the elect of God IN CHRIST, not because you we're unconditionally chosen, but rather because you trusted in Christ and was then baptized into the BODY of CHRIST by the power of the Holy Spirit.

As for you George, you are dead. You are crucified with Christ and nevertheless live, yet not You, but rather Christ in you.

See, it's not Christ and you, it's Christ in you.

Enormous difference to say the least.
Click to expand...
Eventide, if Election is on the basis of 100% Christ, then the conditions are 0% in us. Then since there are not conditions in us, it is unconditional election. I am guessing you might consider using the often repeated straw man argument here that then those that believe in unconditional election deny that one must have faith to be saved. Of course it is painfully obvious that this accusation is a false charge. We believe. We have faith. We have faith because we are elected to have faith. It was out there by God who elected us. Then election is totally by the will of God, or monergistic and God is fully responsible for salvation and should receive all the glory and credit for salvation.

On the other hand, if election is on the basis of foreseen faith, then election is synergistic, and election is by Christ and us together. It is then the synergistic cooperation of two wills. Then, of course, God is at least partially responsible for our salvation, and should receive at least partial credit for our salvation, and receive at least partial accolades for his part in our salvation. The rest of the glory should then go to the person who contributed faith to receive his election and salvation.

To God be all glory, and honor. Salvation, and election are of him alone.

Mondar
Click to expand...

so you believe and have faith. How is it non-meritorious for you? How Do you know?

I believe and have faith. How is it meritorious for me? How do you know?

Faith is a perception that has no merit in and of itself.

I see a red car and have faith that it is red. There is no merit on my part for having faith that that car is red.

God tore the barrier down for mankind through the Cross of Christ. Man can believe what God Did for him or not. And there is no merit on our part for believing in what he did for us.
 
gr8grace said:
Man can believe what God Did for him or not. And there is no merit on our part for believing in what he did for us.
Click to expand...

I seem to remember reading, SOMEWHERE about a man's faith: ".... and God counted it to him as righteousness...."

Now where did I read that....? I don't THINK it was People Magazine...
 
Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

See? I KNEW it wasn't People Magazine... silly me! ;)
 
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