Must the commandments in the O.T. be obeyed in order to be/remain saved?

[GodsGrace]

Drew

Your post no. 19 is pretty messed up...something went wrong.

I do believe I answered your post AT THE BEGINNING of your post back in
no. 17

I don't think I can answer any better than that.
I showed two different times when Paul either abolished something
or confirmed something and I said why.

You don't accept this and we'll have to leave it at that. I just can't bring up anything new right now.

Maybe if you addressed Romans 11:17 about being grafted in?

 

[Drew]

2. God's laws are understood to be in different categories usually only by those who love and study and try to proactively live by God's laws

I could equally well claim "God's laws are understood to be as not in different categories usually only by those who love and study and try to proactively live by God's laws"

You are giving us no actual argument here - you are merely lauding those who hold a certain view.

 

[Drew]

Let's be clear about something: just because a moral universal - such as "thou shalt not kill" - is against one particular nation's laws does not mean that everyone is under that nation's laws!

The Law of Moses, including the "moral" rules, is for the nation of Israel. The fact no one should murder does not, obviously, mean that we are all under the moral component of the Law of Moses. That gets things backwards - if a moral principle is truly universal, it should be enshrined in all the various formal codes of conduct that governs all people worldwide. It does not mean that there in one universal formal code of conduct.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let's be clear about something: just because a moral universal - such as "thou shalt not kill" - is against one particular nation's laws does not mean that everyone is under that nation's laws!

The Law of Moses, including the "moral" rules, is for the nation of Israel. The fact no one should murder does not, obviously, mean that we are all under the moral component of the Law of Moses. That gets things backwards - if a moral principle is truly universal, it should be enshrined in all the various formal codes of conduct that governs all people worldwide. It does not mean that there in one universal formal code of conduct.

Please reply to Romans 11:17 for an answer to the above....
This is not about a nation's laws.
It's about God's laws.
Thou shalt not kill is a law given by God BEFORE Mr. Sinai.

Maybe the problem is that you don't see God as being world-wide but only as belonging to Israel?

 

[Drew]

I don't think there is any chance for a meeting of the minds on these matters. I will close by addressing Romans 11:17. The fact that we are now "grafted into" Israel certainly does not logically entail that the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments remain in force. It could be, and I think this is indeed Paul's position, that the church is the "new Israel" but is no longer under the Old Covenant charter - the Law of Moses.

If some new angles to the discussion come up, I will chime back in.

 

[JLB]

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Is circumcision good and holy.

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:2-3


The law of Moses requires physical circumcision.



Is it holy and good to stone people to death for picking up sticks to build a fire on the Sabbath?

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:14-15



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36


The law of Moses required that those who violate the Sabbath be put to death.



Is it holy and good to sacrifice animals for sins?


Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. He shall bring the bull to the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, lay his hand on the bull’s head, and kill the bull before the LORD. Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull’s blood and bring it to the tabernacle of meeting. The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil of the sanctuary. And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of meeting; and he shall pour the remaining blood of the bull at the base of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of meeting.
Leviticus 4:1-7



The law of Moses required the sacrifice of animals for sin.





JLB

 

[JLB]

We here on this site seem to be arguing about a something I thought was a known fact.

Here are some questions....

1. What is the Law of Moses?

2. Are the Laws understood to be in different categories?

3. Are we required to obey the 10 commandments in order to be or remain saved?

Can we shift the discussion to answer a question, so that we can all begin to find unity and harmony of belief, through the scriptures?


Which commandments are we obligated to keep to remain
“in Christ“?

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Can a person who can’t read, or has no bible, walk in covenant with the Lord and remain in Him.


Like Abraham?

Like Enoch?

Job?

Noah?

Moses?

Cornelius?


You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think there is any chance for a meeting of the minds on these matters. I will close by addressing Romans 11:17. The fact that we are now "grafted into" Israel certainly does not logically entail that the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments remain in force. It could be, and I think this is indeed Paul's position, that the church is the "new Israel" but is no longer under the Old Covenant charter - the Law of Moses.

If some new angles to the discussion come up, I will chime back in.

You could go Drew,,,
BUT

1. NOBODY is saying we are to follow the Law of Moses, as y ou seem to think.

2. I've shown you several times how some of the Laws ARE to be obeyed...but not others.
Clearly showing a distinction in the different laws.

3. We are under the New Covenant...this does not make the Mosaic Covenant obsolete, but better. I doubt you looked into what I had asked you to...whether or not every new covenant makes the previous obsolete.

And with that, I bid you au revoir....

 

[GodsGrace]

Can we shift the discussion to answer a question, so that we can all begin to find unity and harmony of belief, through the scriptures?


Which commandments are we obligated to keep to remain
“in Christ“?

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Can a person who can’t read, or has no bible, walk in covenant with the Lord and remain in Him.


Like Abraham?

Like Enoch?

Job?

Noah?

Moses?

Cornelius?


You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40





JLB

I've said MANY times that I know persons that have never read a bible and are perfectly saved by their faith in God.

They go to church and are schooled in what is acceptable and what is not.

And....assuming they have never entered into a church....
and know nothing about the commandments....

And a man may have two wives, which is adultery...
he will NOT be held responsible by God since his knowledge is limited.
Luke 12:48
47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

 

[Drew]

You could go Drew,,,
BUT

1. NOBODY is saying we are to follow the Law of Moses, as y ou seem to think.

You are saying we should follow the 10. The 10 are part of the Law of Moses. So you are at least saying that we should follow a subset of the Law of Moses.

2. I've shown you several times how some of the Laws ARE to be obeyed...but not others.
Clearly showing a distinction in the different laws.

I don't find your arguments convincing, and I have already explained why. I see no reason to believe carrying the discussion forward would get us anywhere.

3. We are under the New Covenant...this does not make the Mosaic Covenant obsolete, but better.

Obviously, we again disagree.

I doubt you looked into what I had asked you to...whether or not every new covenant makes the previous obsolete.

I did address your question.

 

[Truthfrees]

All right, let's talk about "expansion". I agree with you that Jesus gave commandments that were "expansions" of certain Old Testament laws. Fine. But the fact that Jesus modified these OT commandments means that they are indeed left behind and replaced with the modified version.

don't replace my words with your words to change the meaning of what i said

this is only a discussion

you make your own life choices based on what seems good to you without attacking my sincere beliefs

 

[Truthfrees]

I could equally well claim "God's laws are understood to be as not in different categories usually only by those who love and study and try to proactively live by God's laws"

You are giving us no actual argument here - you are merely lauding those who hold a certain view.

read my exact words

if you are going to judge me and my character whenever i share my sincere beliefs and lifestyle then i will not discuss anything with you again

 

[Truthfrees]

BINGO!
Agreed on all three.
So nice not to be all alone here!

And as you, and others, like JLB and for_his_glory , have noted,,,God's (10) commandments were given to us even before Moses...it is known as the Natural Law and is from the beginnning.
(not 10, actually).

God's 10 and others of the 613 fit into the "love God' and "love neighbor" category

 

[Drew]

expanded means delve the depths of the law like the heart attitude of the law - the proactive living of the law - etc - there were no modifications of the law given by Jesus or paul - i gave you the scriptures of what they both said about the law - "replaced" "modified" is not what either of them said - they both warned about breaking God's laws - they both commended people for teaching and keeping God's laws - they both said to establish God's law

Well, when Jesus says "it is written that you should not commit adultery, but I say to you....." and then adds stuff about lusting in your heart, that seems like a modification to me. But, I can see how it might be understood as an elaboration. So I see that particular point of yours.

However, I believe there is a lot of Biblical evidence that Paul - and even Jesus - considers the Law to come to an end at the cross. Not least Ephesians 2 (around version 15) where Paul clearly declares the Law has been abolished.

Let us be clear: the fact that Jesus commends people for keeping the Law does not necessarily mean He believes that it will remain in force for ever. In fact, Jesus clearly challenges the Law many, many times.

One is the bit about the woman caught in adultery. And there are others.

 

[Drew]

those who want to abolish the law - replace the law - don't realize that Jesus and paul both reiterated most of God's laws verbatim when they each gave "new" commandments or instructions

The question I always have for people who hold your view is this: Assuming that you are not sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sin (required by the Law), or stoning adulterers (required by the Law), on precisely what basis are you choosing to not follow these laws while, on the other hand, you follow the 10 commandments?

 

[Drew]

show me where Jesus abolished any commandment and told anyone to stop keeping that commandment

Very easy:

1. He said that that no food defiles - direct contradiction to the Law of Moses;
2. He refused to allow the stoning of a woman caught in adultery, as required by the Law of Moses.
3. He claimed that He was the place to go to for forgiveness of sin - the Law required one to go the Temple;
4. He challenged the Sabbath.

 

[Drew]

i meant the following:

those who love and study God's laws with the desire to keep God's laws put them into categories to better facilitate the proper keeping of God's laws

those who do not study God's laws with the goal to keep God's laws do not USUALLY put them into categories

I am pretty sure you have no evidence to back up this claim.

 

[jerry63935]

Is circumcision good and holy.

take it up with the word of God .nothing i mean nothing in that scripture says circumcision. i simply showed what scripture has to say. honestly i thought you stood for the word . your rambling on about something that is not said in the scriptures

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
we dont live by the law to be saved but it is a guide / paul wrote i would not have known what sin was
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”


your qnat starining


this is full context
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

i hope you did notice i plainly said were not saved by the law.. yes the law was good it was never wrote to bring salvation . the law has its own place used properly . bringing all the subjects like stoning circumcision.. is out of order... as per i never said that .please re think your post

 

[Truthfrees]

Very easy:

1. He said that that no food defiles - direct contradiction to the Law of Moses;
2. He refused to allow the stoning of a woman caught in adultery, as required by the Law of Moses.
3. He claimed that He was the place to go to for forgiveness of sin - the Law required one to go the Temple;
4. He challenged the Sabbath.

need scripture please

 

[Truthfrees]

The question I always have for people who hold your view is this: Assuming that you are not sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sin (required by the Law), or stoning adulterers (required by the Law), on precisely what basis are you choosing to not follow these laws while, on the other hand, you follow the 10 commandments?

if you don't understand the law and how it applies and how to execute it then don't mess with it