Must the commandments in the O.T. be obeyed in order to be/remain saved?

[Truthfrees]

However, I believe there is a lot of Biblical evidence that Paul - and even Jesus - considers the Law to come to an end at the cross. Not least Ephesians 2 (around version 15) where Paul clearly declares the Law has been abolished.

Let us be clear: the fact that Jesus commends people for keeping the Law does not necessarily mean He believes that it will remain in force for ever. In fact, Jesus clearly challenges the Law many, many times.

One is the bit about the woman caught in adultery. And there are others.

scriptures please to prove your claims

 

[Drew]

animal sacrifices were commanded to be made only at the temple - there is no temple - and you can't modify or replace the words of God's commands with other words - you do it as says or not at all

So why not build another temple so you can follow the Law? No one is saying that we replace God's Law, we are saying that Paul writes that the Law of Moses has been retired. And that Jesus undertook symbolic actions that challenged the Law of Moses.

stoning adulterers is a part of the civil justice code when God is the leader of the country - again follow the law as it applies and don't try to force it into constructs God did not place it

You say "follow the law as it applies". Why, precisely, does the stoning law not apply? Your decision to categorize a particular law as part of a "civil justice code" appears arbitrary - why is not the commandment against theft not, likewise, part of a civil justice code? And even if the law against stoning is in a different "category" than the commandment to not steal, on precisely what basis do you decide that one is to be retained and the other set aside?

 

[Drew]

paul said do we abolish the law - no we establish - Romans 3:31

please provide quotes to the contrary

First of all, I concede that the statement in Romans 3:31 is a challenge to the position I hold. I believe I have a satisfactory answer, but in the meantime, I will show that Paul says the Law is "abolished":

From Romans 7: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

From Galatians 3: Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

From Ephesians 2: For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,...

 

[JLB]

take it up with the word of God .nothing i mean nothing in that scripture says circumcision. i simply showed what scripture has to say. honestly i thought you stood for the word . your rambling on about something that is not said in the scriptures

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
we dont live by the law to be saved but it is a guide / paul wrote i would not have known what sin was
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”


your qnat starining


this is full context
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

i hope you did notice i plainly said were not saved by the law.. yes the law was good it was never wrote to bring salvation . the law has its own place used properly . bringing all the subjects like stoning circumcision.. is out of order... as per i never said that .please re think your post

I take it your not going to answer my question?

The point I wanted you to see is there are several different meanings of “the law” in scripture.

The law can refer to:

• The Torah — The first five books of the Old Testament.
• The Commandments or what some people call; The moral law.
• The law of Moses — The ordinances that the law of commandments were contained in such as ...

Animal Sacrifices
Feast Days
New Moons
Ceremonial Washings
Sabbath ordinances
Death Penalty’s for disobedience
Levitical Priesthood — Tabernacle and Temple
Separation from Gentiles
Physical Circumcision


So I will ask you again —


Is circumcision good and holy?

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:2-3


The law of Moses requires physical circumcision.



Is it holy and good to stone people to death for picking up sticks to build a fire on the Sabbath?

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:14-15



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36


The law of Moses required that those who violate the Sabbath be put to death.



Is it holy and good to sacrifice animals for sins?


Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them, if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. He shall bring the bull to the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, lay his hand on the bull’s head, and kill the bull before the LORD. Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull’s blood and bring it to the tabernacle of meeting. The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the LORD, in front of the veil of the sanctuary. And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of meeting; and he shall pour the remaining blood of the bull at the base of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of meeting.
Leviticus 4:1-7



The law of Moses required the sacrifice of animals for sin.





JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

So why not build another temple so you can follow the Law? No one is saying that we replace God's Law, we are saying that Paul writes that the Law of Moses has been retired. And that Jesus undertook symbolic actions that challenged the Law of Moses.

rest on the sabbath and keep it as a holy day - be kind to animals and humans - don't eat carnivores and scavengers - circumcise on the eight day - take care of the earth - bless God and worship Him - wash in running water not stagnant water - be honest judges and leaders - be faithful to your spouse - pray and study God's words - be kind to the poor - dwell together in unity and peace - don't sit walk stand eat with evil people who love to do evil things - etc

 

[jerry63935]

I take it your not going to answer my question?

why should i answer a question from a scripture in the Bible . do you agree with what paul wrote? i am avoiding foolish questions.. this aint no court nor am i on trail .if you dont believe what paul wrote in romans 7 .i cant help you the

Wherefore the law is holy - As if he had said, to soothe his countrymen, to whom he had been showing the absolute insufficiency of the law either to justify or save from sin: I do not intimate that there is any thing improper or imperfect in the law as a rule of life: it prescribes what is holy, just, and good; for it comes from a holy, just, and good God. The Law, which is to regulate the whole of the outward conduct, is holy; and the Commandment, Thou shalt not covet, which is to regulate the heart, is not less so. All is excellent and pure; but it neither pardons sin nor purifies the heart; and it is because it is holy, just, and good, that it condemns transgressors to death. i just showed you what this is pretty explanatory .. so plz dont implicate my post into legalism . i stand for saved by grace the law tells us what sin is ..
Adam Clarke wrote. he is historical in comments . why do you want to bring all the penalties into a discussion . when it was never brought up ... when you put the word obey into the plan of salvation and you fail to explain obey . then it could be taken as legalism and no.


longer grace

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
which law do you want ?
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
i did not write this the apostle paul did he explain this in romans 8 .

have a good night -case closed i been found not guilty justified by the Blood of the lamb . i am more free than barabas

 

[Truthfrees]

You say "follow the law as it applies". Why, precisely, does the stoning law not apply? Your decision to categorize a particular law as part of a "civil justice code" appears arbitrary - why is not the commandment against theft not, likewise, part of a civil justice code? And even if the law against stoning is in a different "category" than the commandment to not steal, on precisely what basis do you decide that one is to be retained and the other set aside?

why did God make some laws capital crimes? - i don't know - for me today it says God really hates certain things - so the lesson to me is do not do the things God hates - do the things God loves - law keepers love to do the do's and avoid the don'ts -

 

[Truthfrees]

First of all, I concede that the statement in Romans 3:31 is a challenge to the position I hold. I believe I have a satisfactory answer, but in the meantime, I will show that Paul says the Law is "abolished":

From Romans 7: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

From Galatians 3: Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

From Ephesians 2: For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,...

willfully or ignorantly breaking God's laws bring unnecessary trouble to your life - walk with God and you won't even be tempted to follow the ways of death - you will walk in His blessings ability favor help guidance protection wisdom

 

[jerry63935]

- God gave His laws so we could live wisely and properly with God and our fellow man - no where does God say to keep His laws for righteousness - He just says keep My laws and be blessed - break my laws and end up in all kinds of unnecessary trouble

 

[JLB]

why should i answer a question from a scripture in the Bible .

We are having a bible discussion.

do you agree with what paul wrote?

Yes.

I‘m hoping we can come to a common understanding about what Paul wrote, because some of what he wrote, may seem confusing.

i am avoiding foolish questions.. this aint no court nor am i on trail .if you dont believe what paul wrote in romans 7 .i cant help you the

I believe Romans 7, as well as the other 15 chapters.


Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4


We have become dead to the law of Moses.


This does not mean we are dead to the righteous commandment of do not murder, or do not commit adultery or do not lie...


These commandments are righteous and holy and eternal.


We are dead to food laws, animal sacrifices, special feast days, and Sabbath requirements as the law of Moses required....


This is the only point I was wanting to make.


Abraham walked with God and obeyed His voice; His laws and commandments 430 years before Moses gave the law.

We are sons of Abraham through faith in Christ, having been grafted into the “olive tree”, that we should walk before the Lord in His presence in obedience and be blameless as Abraham did, having patterned the lifestyle of faith; the righteousness of faith.


But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

because some of what he wrote, may seem confusing.

your making it that way

We are having a bible discussion.

not any longer i am done

 

[JLB]

your making it that way

I was referring to what Peter said....

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:14-16



JLB

 

[JLB]

not any longer i am done

Ok.

Be blessed.


JLB

 

[Drew]

in context read how paul says keeping the law for righteousness

Please be more precise - what texts are you referring to here? I see no evidence at all that Paul believes the Law of Moses is still in force. And plenty of evidence, per my last post, that he believes it is retired.

I concede that Paul, at times, suggests obedience to the Law. However, I think he is doing this simply as a means to not annoy certain Jews.

- there is no such thing from God - that is a man made thing - man tried keeping the law for righteousness - right standing with God - God gave His laws so we could live wisely and properly with God and our fellow man - no where does God say to keep His laws for righteousness - He just says keep My laws and be blessed - break my laws and end up in all kinds of unnecessary trouble

I do not see how any of this establishes that the Law of Moses, in particular, is still in force. Now about Romans 3:31 - while this text does indeed suggest the law is still in force, there is another interpretation that makes more sense given all the clear statements Paul makes about the Law being set aside. And that interpretation is this: we "establish" or "sustain" the Law in the sense that we recognize it is a good thing that had its role to play; however, that role has now come to an end.

 

[JLB]

I see no evidence at all that Paul believes the Law of Moses is still in force. And plenty of evidence, per my last post, that he believes it is retired.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

do not see how any of this establishes that the Law of Moses, in particular, is still in force. Now about Romans 3:31 - while this text does indeed suggest the law is still in force, there is another interpretation that makes more sense given all the clear statements Paul makes about the Law being set aside.

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.



The law of faith “upholds” the law of Moses, in that they both operate by the same principle.

OBEDIENCE.

Obedience is the common weight of balance in the scales of righteousness.

Obedience of faith is what the context of Romans is all about.

This is what James teaches.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[Drew]

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

The law of faith “upholds” the law of Moses, in that they both operate by the same principle.

I agree with you, but I suspect you will agree that it is easy for those who believe the Law is still in force to read Romans 3:31 as a clear affirmation that the Law of Moses remains in place just as it did for centuries before.

 

[Truthfrees]

Please be more precise - what texts are you referring to here? I see no evidence at all that Paul believes the Law of Moses is still in force. And plenty of evidence, per my last post, that he believes it is retired.

I concede that Paul, at times, suggests obedience to the Law. However, I think he is doing this simply as a means to not annoy certain Jews.


I do not see how any of this establishes that the Law of Moses, in particular, is still in force. Now about Romans 3:31 - while this text does indeed suggest the law is still in force, there is another interpretation that makes more sense given all the clear statements Paul makes about the Law being set aside. And that interpretation is this: we "establish" or "sustain" the Law in the sense that we recognize it is a good thing that had its role to play; however, that role has now come to an end.

God gave the laws - Moses wrote them down - they are the holy laws of God that came from God

 

[LovethroughDove]

The question should be: Do you really believe he can keep you saved?

Jude 1:24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Now, the tricky part is dissecting if it was God calling me to himself, or did I have anything to do with it?

Matthew 16:17
John 10:29

I think this information is pertinent to the conversation because this discussion implies that by obeying the OT commandments you will become saved, or remain saved.

It is more of a person's intentions and love for God and truth that lead you into the kingdom of heaven. Or it could be God himself calling us out of the world?

Do I think the law is bad?( No ) But the law is not what got you saved nor does it keep you saved. It is the Holy Spirit inside that keeps you saved. It is the Holy Spirit that was on the outside (before you are born again) that spoke to your heart and called you unto himself.

Edit: Maybe the part of the law that says Love thy God with all thy heart and all your soul..........maybe that coincides with what I said about people intentions.

 

[jerry63935]

The question should be: Do you really believe he can keep you saved?

if one does not believe that He can keep you saved i doubt you was ever saved