Must the commandments in the O.T. be obeyed in order to be/remain saved?

[JLB]

every time paul discusses God's laws aka laws of moses he is discussing law keeping for salvation/righteousness vs law keeping for faith/love

Paul plainly says the law is not of faith.

Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12


Paul also says, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18



The Spirit does not lead us to keep the law of Moses.


The Spirit leads us to obey Christ; The law of Christ.


The prophets teach us this.

“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Isaiah 42:1-4


The law of Moses was the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile; Between the uncircumcised and the circumcised.


That dividing wall, the law of Moses, has been removed.

The one new man has come forth.


But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:13-16





JLB

 

[JLB]

paul said do we abolish the law - no we establish - Romans 3:31

please provide quotes to the contrary

The law of faith upholds the law in that the law of faith and the law of Moses have the same “weight” of balance in the scales of righteousness.

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31


Establish; uphold — Strongs # 2476 — histēmi

1. to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
   1. to bid to stand by, [set up]
      1. in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
      2. to place
   2. to make firm, fix establish
      1. to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
      2. to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
      3. to establish a thing, cause it to stand
         1. to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
   3. to set or place in a balance
      1. to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2. to stand
   1. to stand by or near
      1. to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
         1. of the foundation of a building
   2. to stand
      1. continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
      2. to be of a steadfast mind
      3. of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver

That common weight of balance between the law of Moses and the law of faith is Obedience.


The context of the entire book of Romans is about the obedience of faith. It begins and ends with this phrase.


Abraham responded in obedience when God told him to get out of his country to a land He would show him.


This is the obedience of faith that justified Abraham and foreshadowed the Gospel to the Gentiles.


JLB

 

[jerry63935]

it seems everyone over looks romans 7 the law is holy/ sanctified/ set apart yet nobody has ever said the law saves us. yet a big issue is being made out of it Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. there the importance of the law .not to live by but as a pointer of sin !! one will say we have the holy spirit any one ever think the spirit is working through the law
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: jesus came to fulfill the law
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. so all this qnat strarining we find yes the law has a place.


Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
. so yes as we see the law of the spirit has its place conviction

 

[GodsGrace]

That WAS the topic!

 

[GodsGrace]

God gave the laws - Moses wrote them down - they are the holy laws of God that came from God

if you are right and paul only suggests obedience to the law to not annoy certain jews then paul is not a reliable person so we might as well not regard anything he says

if paul says obedience to God's laws is important because God says they are then we best pay attention and do as he says

so you will have to decide if what paul says is from God or from man

the context of what paul says is arrived at by reading the entire letter of paul - if you are quoting Ephesians/Romans/Galatians/etc read the whole letter and note all the things he says pro and con - then table the cons and the pros and study the details of the seemingly contradictory statements and you will see that paul is talking about different things - keeping laws for righteousness vs keeping laws for love and faith - it is going to take some slow reading and prayer to realize that paul is either schizophrenic and contradicts himself all through his letters - or - paul is talking about keeping laws for salvation/righteousness vs keeping laws for faith/love

if you want to go through a specific letter this way let me know and i can start a thread for that letter and go through it separating law keeping for righteousness/salvation vs law keeping for love/faith

every time paul discusses God's laws aka laws of moses he is discussing law keeping for salvation/righteousness vs law keeping for faith/love - one method leads to death - the other method leads to life

I'm sorry Truthfrees...
I'd like to clarify what you mean by the Law of Moses.

 

[GodsGrace]

The question should be: Do you really believe he can keep you saved?

Jude 1:24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Now, the tricky part is dissecting if it was God calling me to himself, or did I have anything to do with it?

Matthew 16:17
John 10:29

Matthew 16:17 but all the apostles were saved persons...Peter was just more spiritual.
God gives enough grace to everyone so that they could take God into their life, IF THEY WANT TO. You did have something to do with it...you heard God's call somehow and you said YES.
Some say no. Some are atheist. We each have our own reason for our reply.
1 Thessalonians 2:11, 12, 13
11 The gospel was proclaimed to the Thess.
12 God was calling them all into His own Kingdom
13 The Word of God was RECEIVED and ACCEPTED

John 10:29
No one can snatch you out of God's hand.
The action would have to be taken by you. YOU would have to deny God...
not easily done after one has become saved and knows their Father.

I think this information is pertinent to the conversation because this discussion implies that by obeying the OT commandments you will become saved, or remain saved.

Works do not save.
Obeying the 10 commandments with no faith will not save.
It is FAITH that saves. Ephesians 2:8
But after we're saved...are we not required to obey God?
(and I don't know any Christian that believes he could obey God all the time).

It is more of a person's intentions and love for God and truth that lead you into the kingdom of heaven. Or it could be God himself calling us out of the world?

As above from Thess. ..... what do YOU believe?

Do I think the law is bad?( No ) But the law is not what got you saved nor does it keep you saved. It is the Holy Spirit inside that keeps you saved. It is the Holy Spirit that was on the outside (before you are born again) that spoke to your heart and called you unto himself.

I agree with the above regarding the Holy Spirit.
But, again: What do you mean by the law? Do you mean the commandments?
Is it OK to not obey them?
Jesus said if we are His friends, we will do what He commanded.
What did He command?
John 15:14

Edit: Maybe the part of the law that says Love thy God with all thy heart and all your soul..........maybe that coincides with what I said about people intentions.

Hmmmm. I think we love God and then are led into the Kingdom, right here on earth.
I think our love for Him does create in us the right intentions...this is what transformation is all about, right?

Jesus' Two Great Commandments cover all the requirements.
Love God
Love Your Neighbor
Love Yourself

In the New Covenant....love is the key.

 

[JLB]

law keepers are not hung up about laws we are unable to keep - we focus on all the awesome laws we can keep - like rest on the sabbath and keep it as a holy day - be kind to animals and humans - don't eat carnivores and scavengers - circumcise on the eight day - take care of the earth - bless God and worship Him - wash in running water not stagnant water - be honest judges and leaders - be faithful to your spouse - pray and study God's words - be kind to the poor - dwell together in unity and peace - don't sit walk stand eat with evil people who love to do evil things - etc

So which law is that says just keep the laws you can and don’t worry about the rest?

Is that what the law of Moses said?


Some of what you mentioned sounds like the law of Moses and some of it sounds like what Paul taught.


However concerning circumcision Paul taught this —


Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4



And the Sabbath he taught this —


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:14-17


And foods laws that were from the law of Moses —


I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

I'm sorry Truthfrees...
I'd like to clarify what you mean by the Law of Moses.

the laws of moses are the laws God gave moses and he wrote them down

 

[GodsGrace]

the laws of moses are the laws God gave moses and he wrote them down

moses did not make up any laws on his own - he only recorded what God told him

Jesus said the same thing about himself - John 5:19 - John 12:49

Are you saying that you keep all 613 of the Law of Moses?

I'm no one here....but some scholars believe that Moses DID write some of the laws.
But that will have to be a discussion for another day.

 

[JLB]

the laws of moses are the laws God gave moses and he wrote them down

moses did not make up any laws on his own - he only recorded what God told him

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-17



The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, having been nailed to the cross.

Now we are to obey Jesus Christ as our high Priest, not the Levitical Priesthood.


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 7:12


JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Are you saying that you keep all 613 of the Law of Moses?

I'm no one here....but some scholars believe that Moses DID write some of the laws.
But that will have to be a discussion for another day.

they fall into several categories -

 

[jerry63935]

no one has yet to explain the law is holy in romans 7
Romans 7:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Barnes's Romans 7:12 Bible Commentary
Wherefore - So that. The conclusion to which we come is, that the Law is not to be blamed, though these are its effects under existing circumstances. The source of all this is not the Law, but the corrupt nature of man. The Law is good; and yet the position of the apostle is true, that it is not adapted to purify the heart of fallen man. Its tendency is to excite increased guilt, conflict, alarm, and despair. This verse contains an answer to the question in Romans 7:7, "Is the law sin?"

Is holy - Is not sin; compare Romans 7:7. It is pure in its nature.

And the commandment - The word "commandment" is here synonymous with the Law. It properly means what is enjoined.

Holy - Pure.

Just - Righteous in its claims and penalties. It is not unequal in its exactions.

Good - In itself good; and in its own nature tending to produce happiness. The sin and condemnation of the guilty is not the fault of the Law. If obeyed, it would produce happiness everywhere. See a most beautiful description of the law of God in Psalm 19:7-11.
Wesley's Romans 7:12 Bible Commentary
7:12 The commandment - That is, every branch of the law. Is holy, and just, and good - It springs from, and partakes of, the holy nature of God; it is every way just and right in itself; it is designed wholly for the good of man.
i like this version
Romans 7:12-14 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good. 13 Therefore, did what is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment, sin might become sinful beyond measure.

The Problem of Sin in Us
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh,[a] sold as a slave under sin.
so the laws has its purpose but as stated can not produce righteousness

 

[JLB]

or a priest

You are a priest if you are in the New Covenant.



To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:5-6



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

613 fall into several categories - i'm not a farmer - or a priest - or a woman - or a judge - or a political leader - etc - so their are laws that do not apply to me

i'm a business person - a husband - a believer - so i keep the laws that apply to me

it's not hard - God makes it easy if you do it for love and faith

if you do it to be righteous/saved God won't help you with it because He made it clear salvation and righteousness if from Him alone - He made provision for forgiveness of failing

I certainly agree with your last statement.
As to the rest,,,,we each must do what God has instructed us to do.
We must be clear in our conscience.

I will say that the 10 commandments, and all the commandments Jesus left us with,,,
apply to everyone. They apply to you as a businessman, a husband, a believer.

God wants our heart and that's what we must give Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

no one has yet to explain the law is holy in romans 7
Romans 7:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Barnes's Romans 7:12 Bible Commentary
Wherefore - So that. The conclusion to which we come is, that the Law is not to be blamed, though these are its effects under existing circumstances. The source of all this is not the Law, but the corrupt nature of man. The Law is good; and yet the position of the apostle is true, that it is not adapted to purify the heart of fallen man. Its tendency is to excite increased guilt, conflict, alarm, and despair. This verse contains an answer to the question in Romans 7:7, "Is the law sin?"

Is holy - Is not sin; compare Romans 7:7. It is pure in its nature.

And the commandment - The word "commandment" is here synonymous with the Law. It properly means what is enjoined.

Holy - Pure.

Just - Righteous in its claims and penalties. It is not unequal in its exactions.

Good - In itself good; and in its own nature tending to produce happiness. The sin and condemnation of the guilty is not the fault of the Law. If obeyed, it would produce happiness everywhere. See a most beautiful description of the law of God in Psalm 19:7-11.
Wesley's Romans 7:12 Bible Commentary
7:12 The commandment - That is, every branch of the law. Is holy, and just, and good - It springs from, and partakes of, the holy nature of God; it is every way just and right in itself; it is designed wholly for the good of man.
i like this version
Romans 7:12-14 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good. 13 Therefore, did what is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment, sin might become sinful beyond measure.

The Problem of Sin in Us
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh,[a] sold as a slave under sin.
so the laws has its purpose but as stated can not produce righteousness

You've just explained it Jerry.
And very well too.

Thanks.

I agree BTW.

The commandments are not abolished...
but those of the flesh are condemned by them.
The law is for sinners...
1 Timothy 1:9
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers ......

Those that obey the Law do not need it.
It is for those that break it...so that they may know they have broken it.

I find that this is not easy to understand....

 

[JLB]

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Start and the beginning of Romans 7, to build a foundation with which to understand the rest of Romans 7.



Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:1-4

• you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ

The reason those who know the law, (Jews and proselytes) have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, is the law was nailed to the cross in which it was abolished in His flesh.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The dividing wall of separation that divided Jew from Gentile was the law of Moses. The circumcised Jew, must have no relationship with the uncircumcised Gentile.

This “middle wall of separation”, was abolished and along with it the enmity, that separated Jew from Gentile so He could bring forth one new man from the two, thereby making peace.




And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Start and the beginning of Romans 7, to build a foundation with which to understand the rest of Romans 7.



Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:1-4

• you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ

The reason those who know the law, (Jews and proselytes) have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, is the law was nailed to the cross in which it was abolished in His flesh.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The dividing wall of separation that divided Jew from Gentile was the law of Moses. The circumcised Jew, must have no relationship with the uncircumcised Gentile.

This “middle wall of separation”, was abolished and along with it the enmity, that separated Jew from Gentile so He could bring forth one new man from the two, thereby making peace.




And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17



JLB

What does the above mean?
What has been taken out of the way?
What are the ordinances?
What are the commandments?

Let's see if we could clear this up .......

Food in not listed in the 10 commandments.
Drink is not listed in the 10.
A festival is not listed in the 10.
The Sabbath is debated....no problem since the others remain 100% in tact.

What does it mean that Jesus made a spectacle of the principalities of darkness,
and that He triumphed over them?

Let's see if we could clear this up ......
because you're sounding like a different person.

 

[JLB]

What does the above mean?

Dead to the law means just exactly what says.

Dead to the law of Moses.

What has been taken out of the way?

The law of Moses.

What are the ordinances?

Ordnance - dogma - Strongs G1378

1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
   1. of public decrees
   2. of the Roman Senate
   3. of rulers
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

JLB

 

[JLB]

What are the commandments?

The law of Commandments contained in ordnance’s refers to the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

I certainly agree with your last statement.
As to the rest,,,,we each must do what God has instructed us to do.
We must be clear in our conscience.

I will say that the 10 commandments, and all the commandments Jesus left us with,,,
apply to everyone. They apply to you as a businessman, a husband, a believer.

God wants our heart and that's what we must give Him.

no problem with that - i believe in law keeping -

as you said each person has to deal with God on this - if God has our heart we will end up doing the things He loves