My take on Trinity

[7thMoon]

The Word is the subject and the predicate nominative means that the Word is being modified by God. That is, John is telling us who is the Word, not who is God.

The word is not the subject of the 3rd clause, since the preceding nominative is God. God is the word. The word is Yehowah or something similar.

First, Theos has no article, so it cannot be "the God." Second, John has already told us in the first clause that the Word is eternal, and in the second clause that the Word has always existed in intimate relationship with God. In the third clause, then, whatever John says cannot contradict what he has already said. What John says simply completes the thought of the first two clauses--to be eternal and in intimate relationship with God, is to be God in nature.

It doesn't need the article. The Greek article actually has the opposite of effect of what is expected. It introduces rather than assuming introduction.

I have no idea what your point is here.

Divine and supernatural are the same thing.

 

[Free]

The word is not the subject of the 3rd clause, since the preceding nominative is God. God is the word. The word is Yehowah or something similar.

No, that's backwards. I would ask for evidence, but you have yet to provide any. And, I have already provided evidence that supports my position, which also happens to be the position stated in every modern legitimate translation.

It doesn't need the article. The Greek article actually has the opposite of effect of what is expected. It introduces rather than assuming introduction.

It 100%, absolutely does not. I asked previously for evidence of this and not only did you not provide any, every source I look at supports what I have said. The definite article in any language, it seems, means only one thing.

Divine and supernatural are the same thing.

No, they are not. "Supernatural," according to Merriam-Webster:

1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (such as a ghost or spirit)

"Divine":

1 religion
a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God (see god entry 1 sense 1) or a god (see god entry 1 sense 2) b : being a deity
c : directed to a deity


In other words, while God is a supernatural (spiritual) being, like angels and demons, only he is divine (deity).

 

[BeyondET]

Care to clarify?

What part was complicated?

Ephesians 4:3
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

 

[BeyondET]

No, they are not. "Supernatural," according to Merriam-Webster:

1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (such as a ghost or spirit)

"Divine":

1 religion
a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God (see god entry 1 sense 1) or a god (see god entry 1 sense 2) b : being a deity
c : directed to a deity


In other words, while God is a supernatural (spiritual) being, like angels and demons, only he is divine (deity).

Devinenatural, beyond the supernatural as impossible as that may seem.

 

[BeyondET]

Any being which can do supernatural things is a god, but there is uniquely one God who created planet earth. Do I need to show you how weak your post was? Your theism is not totally monos as in unique. Even the Muslims do better.

There's only one God who created supernatural beings. A being that can do supernatural things isn't a god, rather they appear to you to be, even lower case.

 

[Butch5]

A lot of words going round and round.
GOD the Father said, " This is My Beloved Son. "
That is two elements of the trinity.
Jesus said he would send the Spirit to us, that makes three elements of the trinity.


Whether one uses the word or not is irrelevant, God is three in one.

Is wind a person?

 

[Butch5]

Disclaimer: I am not against people using the term Trinity.

Isaiah 9:


Do these titles refer to the same person?

The term person is loaded with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.

See

• The Father is a witness
• The Holy Spirit is a witness
• Jesus is God
• Hagar and the angel of the LORD.

The word "Trinity" is not written in the Bible. I'd avoid using the term. I try to stick to the words and wording of the Bible as much as possible. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is that I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.

On the other hand, Berean Literal Bible, Acts 17:


KJB translated Θεῖον as "Godhead"; NKJB used "Divine Nature".

The term Trinity is loaded and not in the Bible. The term Divine Being (G2304) is in the Bible. I would use that instead of Trinity.

See also Is "elohim" singular or plural?.

This is why I prefer the Septuagint. This problem doesn't exist.

Isaiah 9:6–7 (NETS (Primary Texts)): because a child was born for us,
a son also given to us,
whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder,
and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel,
for I will bring peace upon the rulers,
peace and health to him.
7(6) His sovereignty is great,
and his peace has no boundary
upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom,
to make it prosper and to uphold it
with righteousness and with judgment
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things.

 

[Who Me]

John6:

Is wind a person?

Read the scripture and deside.
John6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
John16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Romans8:
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

These are not attributes of wind, but of a person.

 

[Butch5]

John6:


Read the scripture and deside.
John6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

First let me clarify. The post I was replying to implied the Spirit was a third person. You didn't answer my question though. Is wind a person?

How are words filled with a person?

John16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Romans8:

Let's back up a bit.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 16:6–7.

The word translated comforter is parakletos. It's in the masculine gender. The Greek language requires that the pronoun match the noun in gender. Therefore, the word parakletos requires the pronoun to be the word he/him whether it's a person or a rock. It's just like wisdom, sophia, it's a feminine noun and the pronoun is she. We know wisdom isn't a literal woman or person. Now let's move on to the passage you posted about the Spirit of Truth. This is a reference back to the Comforter. The word He, ekeinos, appears twice in those three verses. The rest are added by the translators. Ekeinos means, that person or that thing. It's in the mansculine gender because it's referring back to the Comforter. As we saw, the word translated Comforter is required by the grammar to have a masculine pronoun. Thus the "He" translation. However, the word Pneuma, translated Spirit, is in the neuter gender. This indicates a thing which usually gets the neuter pronoun it. So, the use of the word He doesn't necessitate a person, just as she doesn't necessitate a person when speaking of wisdom.

Doth not wisdom cry? And understanding put forth her voice?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Pr 8:1.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 11:19.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

These are not attributes of wind, but of a person.

Well, the word pneuma means wind. It's used also of breath since when we breath we create wind. When it is translated spirit, it is a figure of speech. The English word spirit denotes a non-physical living being. The word pneuma does not. It means wind. However, as a figure of speech pneuma is used of non-physical living beings, such as angels and demons. The question is why? The answer is because by calling angels and demons, pneuma or wind, the Bible is figuratively applying the qualities of the wind to these beings. What the qualities of wind? It moves about unseen, angels and demons move about unseen. The wind exerts forces on nature, ie the leaves blow in the wind. Angels and demons likewise exert forces on nature. In Scripture, we see them controlling people. The wind has power, angels and demons have power. The Bible says God is pneuma or wind. God moves about unseen, He exerts forces on nature, He has power. Calling non-physical beings pnuema or wind isn't defining the word pneuma as a living being, it's a figure of speech used to apply the qualities of the wind to these beings. So, when we see the word spirit in our Bibles, we know it's a figure of speech and not literal. Jesus gives us a good example of what pnuema means.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:8.

In this verse both words, wind and Sprit, are translated from the Greek word pneuma. That could be translated,

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the wind.
By translating the second occurrence of pneuma as Spirit the translators are giving us their opinion, (injecting bias into the text) of what the passage says instead of letting us figure it out. If they got it right, great for us. If they got it wrong, they've taught us error and we have no way to know it unless we check for ourselves.

 

[7thMoon]

Devinenatural, beyond the supernatural as impossible as that may seem.

A worthless term and distinction.

 

[BeyondET]

A worthless term and distinction.

You certainly don't have to be a respector of Devine nature, you choose to be that way.

 

[Who Me]

First let me clarify. The post I was replying to implied the Spirit was a third person. You didn't answer my question though. Is wind a person?

How are words filled with a person?

Let's back up a bit.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 16:6–7.

The word translated comforter is parakletos. It's in the masculine gender. The Greek language requires that the pronoun match the noun in gender. Therefore, the word parakletos requires the pronoun to be the word he/him whether it's a person or a rock. It's just like wisdom, sophia, it's a feminine noun and the pronoun is she. We know wisdom isn't a literal woman or person. Now let's move on to the passage you posted about the Spirit of Truth. This is a reference back to the Comforter. The word He, ekeinos, appears twice in those three verses. The rest are added by the translators. Ekeinos means, that person or that thing. It's in the mansculine gender because it's referring back to the Comforter. As we saw, the word translated Comforter is required by the grammar to have a masculine pronoun. Thus the "He" translation. However, the word Pneuma, translated Spirit, is in the neuter gender. This indicates a thing which usually gets the neuter pronoun it. So, the use of the word He doesn't necessitate a person, just as she doesn't necessitate a person when speaking of wisdom.

Doth not wisdom cry? And understanding put forth her voice?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Pr 8:1.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 11:19.

Well, the word pneuma means wind. It's used also of breath since when we breath we create wind. When it is translated spirit, it is a figure of speech. The English word spirit denotes a non-physical living being. The word pneuma does not. It means wind. However, as a figure of speech pneuma is used of non-physical living beings, such as angels and demons. The question is why? The answer is because by calling angels and demons, pneuma or wind, the Bible is figuratively applying the qualities of the wind to these beings. What the qualities of wind? It moves about unseen, angels and demons move about unseen. The wind exerts forces on nature, ie the leaves blow in the wind. Angels and demons likewise exert forces on nature. In Scripture, we see them controlling people. The wind has power, angels and demons have power. The Bible says God is pneuma or wind. God moves about unseen, He exerts forces on nature, He has power. Calling non-physical beings pnuema or wind isn't defining the word pneuma as a living being, it's a figure of speech used to apply the qualities of the wind to these beings. So, when we see the word spirit in our Bibles, we know it's a figure of speech and not literal. Jesus gives us a good example of what pnuema means.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:8.

In this verse both words, wind and Sprit, are translated from the Greek word pneuma. That could be translated,

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the wind.
By translating the second occurrence of pneuma as Spirit the translators are giving us their opinion, (injecting bias into the text) of what the passage says instead of letting us figure it out. If they got it right, great for us. If they got it wrong, they've taught us error and we have no way to know it unless we check for ourselves.

A person speaks, a person can be lied to the wind cannot.

 

[7thMoon]

You certainly don't have to be a respector of Devine nature, you choose to be that way.

Supernature and divenature are the same thing.

 

[Butch5]

A person speaks, a person can be lied to the wind cannot.

Right. Which should tell us that we're dealing with a figure of speech. So, the question we should be asking is what does the figure mean?

There's certainly nothing to imply a third person. The Spirit "of God" or out of God. What does that say?

 

[BeyondET]

Supernature and divenature are the same thing.

It is Devinenature that created the supernature, so no its not the same.

Your statement of dive nature is interesting, seems post 191 wasn't to far off.

 

[Who Me]

Right. Which should tell us that we're dealing with a figure of speech. So, the question we should be asking is what does the figure mean?

There's certainly nothing to imply a third person. The Spirit "of God" or out of God. What does that say?

Except the scriptures talk about God, about Jesus and about the Spirit.
While the word ' trinity' is not found in the bible that is not a reason to reject the idea of trinity.
It is man's attempt to understand what is found in the bible in the most God glorifying way.

 

[Butch5]

Except the scriptures talk about God, about Jesus and about the Spirit.
While the word ' trinity' is not found in the bible that is not a reason to reject the idea of trinity.
It is man's attempt to understand what is found in the bible in the most God glorifying way.

You're right. It is man's attempt to understand what's in the Bible. And, it's a misunderstanding. It's illogical. Three persons cannot be one person. That's simply impossible. Rather than accept what is nonsensical we should seek a reasonable explanation and not one given to us by some 5th century Christians that clearly is illogial.

If we're going to try to understand what's in the Bible we should consider Paul's words to the Corinthians, 'to us there is one God, the Father.' That's a pretty clear statement how does anyone get three persons in one God out of that statement? It clearly says there is one God who is one person, the Father.

However, as I've pointed out there's nothing to indicate the Spirit is a third person.

 

[Who Me]

I've pointed out there's nothing to indicate the Spirit is a third person

Except you ignore the references to him that both say he is a person and ascribe personal characteristics.

You may not like the doctri e of the trinity, but so far you've failed to downgrade the spirit from a person to a ' forcs ', so I don't think k you are going to get far in downgrading the Son into something else.

 

[Butch5]

Except you ignore the references to him that both say he is a person and ascribe personal characteristics.

You may not like the doctri e of the trinity, but so far you've failed to downgrade the spirit from a person to a ' forcs ', so I don't think k you are going to get far in downgrading the Son into something else.

Actually, you've failed to prove it is a third person. As I've pointed out, nothing in Scripture suggests any such thing. I also notice you completely disregarded what Paul said. There is one God who is one person. Show me something in scripture that says there is one God who is three persons.
According to Jesus, the Comforter or Spirit of Truth is a figurative (here we have figurative and spirit together again) way of speaking of the Father.

John 16:7 (NKJV): 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

John 16:12–15 (NKJV): 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

John 16:25 (NKJV): 25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

 

[7thMoon]

It is Devinenature that created the supernature, so no its not the same.

Your statement of dive nature is interesting, seems post 191 wasn't to far off.

Divine is what is not understood naturally. Your distinction is unnecessary.