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National Israel is cursed forever !

rom 11:

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Now Paul is saying, If through National Israel fall, the rest of the world comes into experiencing Gods rich mercy through Christ, and that by National Israel's diminishing, the riches of the gentiles, then how much more richness [rewarding] will it be when ethnic Jews become converted to Jesus Christ through their Ministry ?

You see now is is a reversal, National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was, because of the Tabernacle and Temple [ both types ] and gentiles came there [ some did ] to seek and to worship, now would become a ripe field as the rest of the heathen world for evangelism, by non Jewish believers of the gentile world. In other words, there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism, and so the gentiles [ or church] is made even more richer by now having the privilege to bring the gospel to heathen Jews.


Isa 60:

16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Remember Jesus words in Matt 21:

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Hence elect Jews within the rejected nation, when they come to Faith in Christ, it would be the fruit of the gentile church.

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !
 
rom 11:13

Again:

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations !

Now vs 13

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Paul was quite aware of His Purpose for Jesus christ, His very reason for conversion notice:

acts 9:

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

22:

21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

It was the purpose of His ordination by the Apostles gal 2:

9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

acts 13:

2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them

And Paul is speaking to genties about this issue, because this is part of the gospel which paul preached unto them, in fact, the Jew First and also the Greek, for there is only one Gospel.

As we can see from His words written, He was honored to be called by God for such a task.
 
As we turn back to our study of romans 11, let us remember some key points. First: That in reality the Lord Jesus Christ, God's only Begotten Son is the True Israel servant of Jehovah in whom all of the Divine Purposes are fulfilled Isa 49:

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished *****; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Jesus said Jn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

secondly: Lets not forget that Paul views Two Israels rom 9:


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Thirdly, That Israel is another name for the seed of Abraham. and fourthly: That gentile believers in Christ are the seed of Abraham [Spiritually] Gal 3:

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

With that in mind, its no difference in calling Abraham's fleshly descendants Israel and His Spiritual descendants Israel through Christ, for whether fleshly or Spiritual, they are still the seed of Abraham, and Israel, that just cannot be denied.
 
savedbygrace57

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Click to expand...
NASB Rom 11: 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Now Paul is saying, If through National Israel fall, the rest of the world comes into experiencing Gods rich mercy through Christ, and that by National Israel's diminishing, the riches of the gentiles, then how much more richness [rewarding] will it be when ethnic Jews become converted to Jesus Christ through their Ministry ?
Click to expand...

Hi savedbygrace57,

In the final analysis your expressions or terminology 'national Israel, ethnic Jews, heathen Jews' are highly interpretive.

Romans 11 starts
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

If we take but one expression 'His people' and equate that to 'Israel' or 'descendant(s) of Abraham' the divisions of these terms into believing or non- believing groups (like heathen Jews) are not necessarily required in the reading of the passage. You can ask the question - but I don't think you can provide the answer in the context of Rom 11 - until such time as Paul's prophesy of the olive tree is fulfilled. Otherwise - assumptions are made that are not definitively revealed in scripture until fulfilment.

You see now is is a reversal, National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was, because of the Tabernacle and Temple [ both types ] and gentiles came there [ some did ] to seek and to worship, now would become a ripe field as the rest of the heathen world for evangelism, by non Jewish believers of the gentile world. In other words, there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism, and so the gentiles [ or church] is made even more richer by now having the privilege to bring the gospel to heathen Jews.
Click to expand...

Instead of saying 'National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was' why not say 'Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was'? Do you see the point?

Instead of saying 'there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism' why not say 'there will be descendants of Abraham coming to know Jesus Christ through evangelism'?


Hence elect Jews within the rejected nation, when they come to Faith in Christ, it would be the fruit of the gentile church.
Click to expand...

In the olive tree prophesy -- a natural branch would normally bear natural fruit while a wild branch would bear wild fruit in the cultivated olive tree. Thus I would think in grafting - the grafted branches would retain the characteristics of their respective branches in their fruits.

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations
Click to expand...

Here I would go back to the words in the actual text 'Israel' - without the need to specify: Is this all Israel or a believing remnant.

Haven't followed this tread as closely as I would have liked because of time limitations. Your title national Israel cursed forever - presupposes that it will be. In line with what I have said so far - and a general inclination to see Israel's woes (past, present and future) as the enactment of God's covenant curse in accordance with law - I would be inclined to say Israel is not cursed forever. This is not to say greater woes lie in store for Israel in the outworking of God's purposes.
 
Lets move on to rom 11:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Even as the Apostle to the gentiles Paul remained hopeful that there would be through his preaching, some of his brethren [ according to the flesh] converted to Jesus Christ. He knew it was not a national conversion in the distant future to look forward to, but at his present he believed that there was still in national Israel a remnant according to the election of grace [ see 11:5] that would as he did turn to Christ, or better yet, be turned to Him; and so even as the Apostle to the gentiles he became all things to all [sorts] men, in order that[with God's blessing] may he may win some, not all. 1 cor 9:


19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Again, Paul says nothing about winning the whole nation, for He knows that is not in God's program, but He does firmly believe, that as it is in the gentile world, so it is in the nation of Israel, a remnant to be won of the election of grace, and that it is no future time, but now, at his present vs 5.
 
Lets move on to rom 11:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Even as the Apostle to the gentiles Paul remained hopeful that there would be through his preaching, some of his brethren [ according to the flesh] converted to Jesus Christ. He knew it was not a national conversion in the distant future to look forward to, but at his present he believed that there was still in national Israel a remnant according to the election of grace [ see 11:5] that would as he did turn to Christ, or better yet, be turned to Him; and so even as the Apostle to the gentiles he became all things to all [sorts] men, in order that[with God's blessing] may he may win some, not all. 1 cor 9:


19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Again, Paul says nothing about winning the whole nation, for He knows that is not in God's program, but He does firmly believe, that as it is in the gentile world, so it is in the nation of Israel, a remnant to be won of the election of grace, and that it is no future time, but now, at his present vs 5.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Lets move on to rom 11:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Even as the Apostle to the gentiles Paul remained hopeful that there would be through his preaching, some of his brethren [ according to the flesh] converted to Jesus Christ. He knew it was not a national conversion in the distant future to look forward to, but at his present he believed that there was still in national Israel a remnant according to the election of grace [ see 11:5] that would as he did turn to Christ, or better yet, be turned to Him; and so even as the Apostle to the gentiles he became all things to all [sorts] men, in order that[with God's blessing] may he may win some, not all. 1 cor 9:


19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Again, Paul says nothing about winning the whole nation, for He knows that is not in God's program, but He does firmly believe, that as it is in the gentile world, so it is in the nation of Israel, a remnant to be won of the election of grace, and that it is no future time, but now, at his present vs 5.
Click to expand...


Exactly.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Lets move on to rom 11:
Click to expand...

hi savedbygrace,

Let's move on? How about responding to the following first!

Hi savedbygrace57,

In the final analysis your expressions or terminology 'national Israel, ethnic Jews, heathen Jews' are highly interpretive.

Romans 11 starts
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

If we take but one expression 'His people' and equate that to 'Israel' or 'descendant(s) of Abraham' the divisions of these terms into believing or non- believing groups (like heathen Jews) are not necessarily required in the reading of the passage. You can ask the question - but I don't think you can provide the answer in the context of Rom 11 - until such time as Paul's prophesy of the olive tree is fulfilled. Otherwise - assumptions are made that are not definitively revealed in scripture until fulfilment.

You see now is is a reversal, National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was, because of the Tabernacle and Temple [ both types ] and gentiles came there [ some did ] to seek and to worship, now would become a ripe field as the rest of the heathen world for evangelism, by non Jewish believers of the gentile world. In other words, there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism, and so the gentiles [ or church] is made even more richer by now having the privilege to bring the gospel to heathen Jews.

Instead of saying 'National Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was' why not say 'Israel at one time where the True Worship of God was'? Do you see the point?

Instead of saying 'there will be ethnic Jews coming to know Jesus Christ through gentile evangelism' why not say 'there will be descendants of Abraham coming to know Jesus Christ through evangelism'?


Hence elect Jews within the rejected nation, when they come to Faith in Christ, it would be the fruit of the gentile church.

In the olive tree prophesy -- a natural branch would normally bear natural fruit while a wild branch would bear wild fruit in the cultivated olive tree. Thus I would think in grafting - the grafted branches would retain the characteristics of their respective branches in their fruits.

Their fulness, this is not to be taken as a National conversion, but a branch by branch grafting in, individual ethnic Jews, just as the grafting in of the gentiles were by individuals and not whole nations

Here I would go back to the words in the actual text 'Israel' - without the need to specify: Is this all Israel or a believing remnant.

Haven't followed this tread as closely as I would have liked because of time limitations. Your title national Israel cursed forever - presupposes that it will be. In line with what I have said so far - and a general inclination to see Israel's woes (past, present and future) as the enactment of God's covenant curse in accordance with law - I would be inclined to say Israel is not cursed forever. This is not to say greater woes lie in store for Israel in the outworking of God's purposes.
Click to expand...
 
rom 11:15

Vs


15 for if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul is in essence saying here, if the breaking off of National Israel [ Many ethnic Jews in Israel] before the purpose of reconciling or grafting into Covenant Israel [ The election] gentiles [ eph 2] , what shall the receiving of them be [ the elect remnant in Israel] but life from the dead. Basically, to see some of His own countrymen converted to Jesus Christ, after the nation as a whole had been cut off and Judged by the cross, that would be like experiencing life from the dead.

In other words, there were [ at Paul's time] yet some ethnic Jews , who belonged to Christ, but yet appeared to be broken off because of their unbelief, they would yet still experience a spiritual resurrection, be passed from death unto life, because they [as Paul] belonged to the election of grace.

Seeing one of His fellow countrymen converted to Jesus, is like life from the dead Paul is saying.
 
rom 11:16

vs

16For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Many commentators seems to reference this verse , the first fruit, and the root as being the Patriarchs i.e Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but I believe this to be a mistake, because these men were not the cause of making others holy, hence this honor must go to Jesus Christ.

Now the Lord Jesus Christ, who according to the flesh, was a Jew, He is the first fruit and He is the root by which others are made Holy. Paul is merely pointing back again to the election of grace, which means being chosen in Christ [ eph 1:4] as that which gives hope to seeing some of kinsmen of the flesh being converted out of this wicked nation that has been cut off. Paul understood and knew that all ethnic Jews who were elected in Christ before the world began, [ those being foreknown], that these will in Gods good time, be converted to Christ, just as He himself was as a Jew of the tribe of benjamin [ see rom 11:1-2]

Even when the elect are by nature, dead in sin, they still by election are in Christ, but not yet manifested to be so.

The great mistake of the religion of men today, is that, they teach that one has to meet all these conditions [ faith, repentance, water baptism and ect] before they can get in Christ, but that is a bunch of turkey meat, for those in Christ are chosen in Him before the foundation, and that is what puts an individual into Christ, and believing in Christ is merely the effect, or evidence, or manifestation of that blessed Truth.
 
Re: rom 11:16

savedbygrace57 said:
The great mistake of the religion of men today, is that, they teach that one has to meet all these conditions [ faith, repentance, water baptism and ect] before they can get in Christ, but that is a bunch of turkey meat, for those in Christ are chosen in Him before the foundation, and that is what puts an individual into Christ, and believing in Christ is merely the effect, or evidence, or manifestation of that blessed Truth.
Click to expand...

savebygrace,

Then what you are saying contradicts Jesus who said that if a man is not born of the "water" (baptism) and of the "spirit" in no way he can enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, according to Christ Himself, one needs to be baptized to enter the Kingdom. And, to be baptized, he needs first exercise "faith," so he can "repent" of his sins.

Being chosen before the foundation doesn't erase anyone's freedom of choice, and it doesn't mean they will do what they were chosen for. Otherwise there were no reason for the existence of the earth at all. If God already chose them, why put all the rest of us through this misery? That "would" be an extremely mean God. Which resembles a mythological Greek god, not a just and loving Father like our Father in Heaven.

Election and justification are contingent on righteousness. Chirst is our example, He was perfectly righteous. Because of His righteousness even before the earth was built, He is elected and justified.
That is the example for anyone that wants election to follow. Repentance brings justification through Christ's atonement. That is the purpose of Christ's sacrifice, to enable people to obtain justification.

However, Jesus also said that 'my sheep know my voice.' Which means that there were many before the foundation of the earth that had already reached a level of righteousness and were already following Jesus. Nevertheless, they still need to show fruits of repentance on this earth, as Jesus being perfect as He is, went under all things. So, who are we (so imperfect beings) to think that we can have a free pass?
We don't need to suffer like He did, but we need to repent so His suffering is not set to naught. As without Him, we can't get the election.

Grace means that He made it possible for us to pay the price of justice through our repentance. Otherwise, we would have to suffer the full punishment prescribed by justice. It doesn't mean he paid for everything and we have a jail free card. We need to repent.

He paid the demands of justice with His blood as currency. In other words, He bought the debt we have with justice (similar to buying some promissory note of a debtor). If we want to go to God, we need to settle things with HIm, for He is our creditor. Our currency to settle the debt is our repentance as our blood doesn't have any worth.

As we repent, we are justified before God, meaning we settle our debt with justice. Therefore, we can be candidates to election. If we don't repent (use the currency available to us) justice demands punishment, and that will happen after judgment.

mamre
 
Son of Israel said:
samuel said:
Most of Present Isreal has no promise, only destruction. But God has a remnant, of which he will restore Isreal after the tribulation (times of Jacobs trouble). What do you think the Millennial Kingdom is all about. It is not the Church! if that is what someone has taught you.
Click to expand...

I and others like me, Jews who receive Christ, are that remnant.
I only learn from Jesus Christ and His Apostles by His Holy Spirit.
And Israel most certainly is the Church according to them.
No man taught me this, only God.
But a "man" appears to be attempting to say otherwise...
Click to expand...

Son of Israel,

I don't doubt that you are part of the remnant, a Jew and a Christian. Have you ever met Messianic Jews who don't take their cues from Gentile theology? There are Messianic Jews who do - I'm not referring to these.

Any claim you make about being taught by Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. . . is not unique. Have you been taught by men who are Gentiles - or from Gentile books? You have this over me brother- I dare not laud it over a Jew, as I am a gentile.

While trouble (possibly destruction) lies ahead for Israel-- there is still a promise that has NEVER been fulfilled:

Jer 31:31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

We cannot get to the end of the age with unfulfiled prophesy. Unless someone can point to a period of Israel's history where all Israel knew the Lord (from the least to the greatest) then I see this as a future eschatological hope for both houses of Israel[/quote]
 
stranger said:
Son of Israel,

I don't doubt that you are part of the remnant, a Jew and a Christian. Have you ever met Messianic Jews who don't take their cues from Gentile theology? There are Messianic Jews who do - I'm not referring to these.

Any claim you make about being taught by Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. . . is not unique. Have you been taught by men who are Gentiles - or from Gentile books? You have this over me brother- I dare not laud it over a Jew, as I am a gentile.

While trouble (possibly destruction) lies ahead for Israel-- there is still a promise that has NEVER been fulfilled:

Jer 31:31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

We cannot get to the end of the age with unfulfiled prophesy. Unless someone can point to a period of Israel's history where all Israel knew the Lord (from the least to the greatest) then I see this as a future eschatological hope for both houses of Israel
Click to expand...
[/quote]

I know you did not write this to me but I wanted to answer it also.

This prophesy IS FULFILLED! truly it is awesome and it is fulfilled already!. Lets look at it and see

Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


This was fulfilled in Christ look at what He said
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


We are also told this:

Hbr 8:7 ¶ For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


The word testiment and covenant are the same word they are just translated two ways. look at what else Jesus said

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


So this prophesy of God making a new covenant with Israel and judah was the new covenant made in Christs blood at the cross.and the elect of them- and the elect of us have recieved the promise.Also notice this, in jer 31 it also says that this will be a covenant of not teahcing your neighbors- this is also what Jesus taught about the new covenant.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Isnt that so exciting! God is so good.
 
GodspromisesRyes wrote:

The word testiment and covenant are the same word they are just translated two ways. look at what else Jesus said Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
So this prophesy of God making a new covenant with Israel and judah was the new covenant made in Christs blood at the cross.
Click to expand...
Agreed as per Heb 8 and Jer 31 etc

and the elect of them- and the elect of us have recieved the promise.
Click to expand...

This would be your interpretation because you are reading

the house of Judah and Israel as the elect of the house of Judah and Israel.

There is nothing wrong with saying the house of Israel and the house of Judah if that is what is written.

Also notice this, in jer 31 it also says that this will be a covenant of not teaching your neighbors- this is also what Jesus taught about the new covenant.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Isn't that so exciting! God is so good.
Click to expand...

Indeed - applicable to believers.

If I had to describe Romans 11 in terms of the Church and Israel I would opt for the Kingdom of God taking into account both Israel and the Church thus preserving the mystery of Israel.

Replacement theology describes Romans 11 as talking about the church exclusively.
 
replacement theology seeks to take the saints before the gentiles and seperate them from the body of Christ and take all things to the body of Christ as a seperate entity.

The TRUTH is that gentiles were grafted into the vine that already was- was added to Israel that already was- was made partakers with all the saints that are and have been. Put us all in one fold and one house, and one temple, and one body and one city.

dispensationalism does the opposite error of replacement theology, instead of believing they replaced israel, they beleive the remain seperate unto themselves and that they are seperate from those before them and those after them.

But the word of God shows that all saints, of all time, have walked in faith and in Christ Jesus we are all made into one body and one fold. We have all awaited the same heavenly city- some just had to wait for it and we get to come to it now. That city and temple are built of people, built up on the foundations of the prophets and the apostles.
 
GodspromisesRyes said:
replacement theology seeks to take the saints before the gentiles and seperate them from the body of Christ and take all things to the body of Christ as a seperate entity.

The TRUTH is that gentiles were grafted into the vine that already was- was added to Israel that already was- was made partakers with all the saints that are and have been. Put us all in one fold and one house, and one temple, and one body and one city.

dispensationalism does the opposite error of replacement theology, instead of believing they replaced israel, they beleive the remain seperate unto themselves and that they are seperate from those before them and those after them.

But the word of God shows that all saints, of all time, have walked in faith and in Christ Jesus we are all made into one body and one fold. We have all awaited the same heavenly city- some just had to wait for it and we get to come to it now. That city and temple are built of people, built up on the foundations of the prophets and the apostles.
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Hi GodspromisesRyes,

Replacement theology would probably have varying expressions - I would put it like this - the Chruch replaces Israel - hence the word replacement.

Thus Israel after Christ's ascension in replacement theology is just like any other nation on the face of the earth. If this is the case we can ask: Where is the natural branch that has been broken off in the other nations of the world?

I see the Kingdom of God as a larger reality than the church - the kindom of God existed before Pentecost, if you accept that as the start of the church - just as Israel is older than the church.

So while there is a relation between the two - Israel is associated with the Kingdom of God in unique and transcendant ways. eg1 Jerusalem/ new Jerusalem is part of the blueprint for the new heavens and the new earth. eg2. Jesus, Son of David is King of Israel (sign on the cross read King of the Jews).

I agree there is one fold, just as there is one shepherd and King (of Kings).
 
But is Israel older than the church? Not at all- Israel IS the church!

Act 7:37 ¶ This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Hbr 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].


The church has been for a very long time :) the mystery was that God would come live IN His people- And that God would graft the gentiles into the covenant with Israel by faith making them ONE and no longer strangers. The church is not new- just the new covenant to that church, Israel is new( in Christ Jesus) which brought us nigh to them and gave us access to everything they had in their covenant making US one of them united in the same Spirit.
 
isreal isnt the church if that was the case then why would the lord also tell the jews in jerusalem that you shall not see me unto you say

barruch bashem adonai

if that was mean to the church why?
 
According to Revelations, there will be a remnant of the nation of Israel of 144,000 faithful to Jesus Christ in the end times.
 
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