No conditions to be reconciled !

[GodsGrace]

beloved57

Ozspen has explained 1 Timothy 4:10

NOW the onus is on YOU to show why you don't agree with it.

Please explain how YOU understand this verse.
WHAT does 1 Timothy 4:10 mean to you?

Otherwise we're stuck here...

Wondering

 

[beloved57]

beloved57

Ozspen has explained 1 Timothy 4:10

NOW the onus is on YOU to show why you don't agree with it.

Please explain how YOU understand this verse.
WHAT does 1 Timothy 4:10 mean to you?

Otherwise we're stuck here...

Wondering

I have not seen them explain it . I have no need to explain it, I have no problem with that verse. The problem still remains for you guys, some are reconciled to God by Christ's death while enemies Rom 5:10, and others are not Jn 3:18,36. That point alone shows, proves that Christ did not die for all men without exception ! 1 Tim 4:10 has no bearing on that, if it does, you or the other must prove it, not me lol

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,
I'm not getting involved in this,
but I LOVE
John 3:16

Wondering
no. 173 How could any reconciliation be unilateral?
I'm outta here...

So am I out of this as the conversation has deteriorated into a monologue. Reading someone saying the same thing over and over is not conversation. When a person starts with a belief in unconditional reconciliation and concludes with unconditional reconciliation for the elect, that is called Calvinism in action. I'm not allowed to call it for what it is.

May you have a beautiful time in the hills of Italy. In the next 24 hours we are expecting a deluge of very unseasonal rain and gusty conditions.

Oz

 

[beloved57]

So am I out of this as the conversation has deteriorated into a monologue. Reading someone saying the same thing over and over is not conversation. When a person starts with a belief in unconditional reconciliation and concludes with unconditional reconciliation for the elect, that is called Calvinism in action. I'm not allowed to call it for what it is.

May you have a beautiful time in the hills of Italy. In the next 24 hours we are expecting a deluge of very unseasonal rain and gusty conditions.

Oz

So you are evading the main point of the thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have not seen them explain it . I have no need to explain it, I have no problem with that verse. The problem still remains for you guys, some are reconciled to God by Christ's death while enemies Rom 5:10, and others are not Jn 3:18,36. That point alone shows, proves that Christ did not die for all men without exception ! 1 Tim 4:10 has no bearing on that, if it does, you or the other must prove it, not me lol

In your post no. 175 you alluded to the fact that maybe OzSpen needs to thoroughly study 1 Timothy 4:10 before bringing it to the table.

I'm sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that both OzSpen and Jim Parker know that verse thoroughly.

You say in no. 173:
Reconciliation by Christs death is not just unilateral !

Immediately we have a problem.
This sentence demonstrates that you do not know the meaning of the word Reconciliatiion.
Reconciliation, as understood in mainline Christianity is a two way street.

I can unilaterally Forgive someone for some harm they've done to me.
But we are not Reconciled.
For Reconciliation to happen, TWO people must be in agreement that they wish to not ONLY forgive each other, but have a RELATIONSHIP . or continue with one that had existed before a break.

So now let's get to 1 Timothy 4:10

1 Timothy 4:10New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,A)"> who is the Savior of all people,B)"> and especially of those who believe.

That Is Why We Labor And Strive:
This is like an adventure. We've given our lives to the Lord. We are to be totally devoted to Him.
Chapter 4 speaks about how we're to persevere in our service to the Lord. Many false doctrines will come our way, but we are to hold firm to what the Apostles taught, and pass it on.
Exercising, like for the body, is good for the body; but spiritual exercising is good for the whole man. We are to practice what we preach.

Because we have put our hope in the living God:
We're depending on God to come through on His promises.
We're depending on Jesus to do what He was supposed to do - offer us salvation.

Who is the Savior of All People:
This is the part you might be having a problem with.
Jesus died for the whole world. He went to the cross so that all men might be saved.
Salvation is offered to ALL men - NONE are left out. This is because God LOVES EVERYONE of His creation.
I would say that God did not create us because He does NOT love us - He wishes ALL men to be saved.

Especially of Those Who Believe:
Here is the qualifier beloved57. OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
Even though God wishes and desires for ALL to believe, NOT ALL WILL.
"Especially of those who believe" - means that ONLY those who believe will be saved.

This is very much like John 3:16
For God SO LOVED THE WORLD....
that WHOSOEVER BELIEVED.

God loves the whole world, He loves ALL MEN,
BUT
only those who believe will be saved.
Salvation is for all men, Jesus died for all men, BUT only those who ACCEPT the gift of salvation will be saved.

I defer to OzSpen and Parker since they know a lot more than I do,

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

So am I out of this as the conversation has deteriorated into a monologue. Reading someone saying the same thing over and over is not conversation. When a person starts with a belief in unconditional reconciliation and concludes with unconditional reconciliation for the elect, that is called Calvinism in action. I'm not allowed to call it for what it is.

May you have a beautiful time in the hills of Italy. In the next 24 hours we are expecting a deluge of very unseasonal rain and gusty conditions.

Oz

HA!
Same here.

Calvinism is great at twisting scripture.
It really is not understandable to me how anyone could believe this doctrine.
It changes everything I know about God and makes Him out to be unloving.
2 Peter 3:16

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have not seen them explain it . I have no need to explain it, I have no problem with that verse. The problem still remains for you guys, some are reconciled to God by Christ's death while enemies Rom 5:10, and others are not Jn 3:18,36. That point alone shows, proves that Christ did not die for all men without exception ! 1 Tim 4:10 has no bearing on that, if it does, you or the other must prove it, not me lol

beloved57

I just realized that you're not very interested in Timothy.

You want Romans 5:10 and
John 3:18
John 3:36

Sorry. I thought you were done with that and we were up to Timothy.
I do believe, however, that you and I have already discussed this, maybe on a different thread...

Romans 5:10
When we were still in our sin, still under the curse of death obtained by Adam, Jesus died for us and extended a hand to us so that, if accepting it, we might be saved. Jesus gave us the opportunity to become friends with God.

Now that we're friends with God and are saved, having BEEN reconciled to God by His sacrifice, how much more will our life be better - now that we are freinds.

John 3:18
He who believes in Jesus is not judged. He will not be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. He is saved and safe. God honors our belief in His Son. We are no longer judged because we are no longer living under the Law but under Grace.

He who DOES NOT believe in Jesus is already judged because he was born lost from the very beginning of his life. Most people don't even know they're lost - they think they could just be "good". So, yes, we who believe in Jesus are saved.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son will have a more abundant life here on earth and a life everlasting after death.
Whoever does NOT believe in the Son is living in darkness, will die in darkness and the wrath of God will be upon him even after death.

It seems simple enough to me beloved57.

If you don't agree with any of the above, you should say why.
Otherwise we're just wasting time here.

Wondering

 

[beloved57]

wondering

In your post no. 175 you alluded to the fact that maybe OzSpen needs to thoroughly study 1 Timothy 4:10before bringing it to the table.

Thats right, they brought it up. Its not my responsibility to study things other bring up. Why cant they do it themselves ? The material I post, I have studied it myself ! This thread is not about 1 Tim 4:10 !

 

[beloved57]

beloved57

I just realized that you're not very interested in Timothy.

You want Romans 5:10 and
John 3:18
John 3:36

Sorry. I thought you were done with that and we were up to Timothy.
I do believe, however, that you and I have already discussed this, maybe on a different thread...

Romans 5:10
When we were still in our sin, still under the curse of death obtained by Adam, Jesus died for us and extended a hand to us so that, if accepting it, we might be saved. Jesus gave us the opportunity to become friends with God.

Now that we're friends with God and are saved, having BEEN reconciled to God by His sacrifice, how much more will our life be better - now that we are freinds.

John 3:18
He who believes in Jesus is not judged. He will not be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. He is saved and safe. God honors our belief in His Son. We are no longer judged because we are no longer living under the Law but under Grace.

He who DOES NOT believe in Jesus is already judged because he was born lost from the very beginning of his life. Most people don't even know they're lost - they think they could just be "good". So, yes, we who believe in Jesus are saved.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son will have a more abundant life here on earth and a life everlasting after death.
Whoever does NOT believe in the Son is living in darkness, will die in darkness and the wrath of God will be upon him even after death.

It seems simple enough to me beloved57.

If you don't agree with any of the above, you should say why.
Otherwise we're just wasting time here.

Wondering

Those Unbelievers Christ died for are not condemned already, they are reconciled to God Rom 5:10. So you have not solved the problem !

 

[GodsGrace]

Those Unbelievers Christ died for are not condemned already, they are reconciled to God Rom 5:10. So you have not solved the problem !

Okay.
I'll tell you this:
As long as YOU have solved the problem, that's all that matters.

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

he thinks YOU are saying that because of Christ's death ALL men are saved - thus universalism.

All of mankind will be saved FROM PHYSICAL DEATH ONLY. (That's a done deal because of Jesus' resurrection.)
ONLY the faithful will be saved from hell.

That's how I see it.

iakov the fool 2

 

[GodsGrace]

All of mankind will be saved FROM PHYSICAL DEATH ONLY. (That's a done deal because of Jesus' resurrection.)
ONLY the faithful will be saved from hell.

That's how I see it.

iakov the fool 2

Okay for the second sentence.

WHAT do you mean by the first one??
Doesn't each man die a physical death?

 

[Jim Parker]

WHAT do you mean by the first one??
Doesn't each man die a physical death?

Yes, And everyone will be resurrected.
Their bodies will be immortal and incorruptible. (Won't get sick, old, break down...)
That's what 1 Cor 15:53 says.
Some get resurrected to eternal life united to God and some to the second death eternally separated from God just like the wanted to be. (John 5:28-29)

iakov the fool 2

 

[beloved57]

Okay.
I'll tell you this:
As long as YOU have solved the problem, that's all that matters.

Wondering

Its no problem for me, but apparently it is for you and others.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, And everyone will be resurrected.
Their bodies will be immortal and incorruptible. (Won't get sick, old, break down...)
That's what 1 Cor 15:53 says.
Some get resurrected to eternal life united to God and some to the second death eternally separated from God just like the wanted to be. (John 5:28-29)

iakov the fool 2

Okay. Right.
But I reread you sentence:
All of mankind will be saved FROM PHYSICAL DEATH ONLY.

It sounds like you're saying that no one will die physically.
I know that you mean:
all of mankind will be saved from Physical Death after the resurrection,
but only some will be saved from Spiritual Death.

There has to be another way of saying this.
It makes me feel 2

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Its no problem for me, but apparently it is for you and others.

We can't all be wrong...

 

[Jim Parker]

It sounds like you're saying that no one will die physically.

People will die but everyone will be resurrected and never suffer physical death again.

 

[GodsGrace]

People will die but everyone will be resurrected and never suffer physical death again.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't have a problem.
Maybe you do since you're unable to even express what this problem is.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM beloved57?

What could God have done to create such a problem for us?

Could you please do what OzSpen has been requesting and exegete your own
post since no one here can understand your objection to what we've posted.

You said in your O.P.:
Not all men are reconciled to God by Christ's death while being enemies, and thats simply because Christ's death was not for everyone without exception. Thats why some are reconciled to God while being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 and why some are under Gods wrath and condemnation while being enemies and unbelievers Jn 3:18,36 !

Could you please explain the conflict between Romans 5:10 and John 3:18 and 36 since I don't see one and, apparently, neither does anyone else.

Romans 5:6 states that Christ died for the ungodly.
WHO are the ungodly?
Is it just a select few? Or is it everyone who was ever born. You yourself have stated that NO ONE born deserves anything from God (or words to that effect).
So, WHO are the ungodly?

Were they or were thy not enemies of God BEFORE they accepted their salvation?
Or did God just pick and choose a few to get to heaven and decide, for some weird reason we'll never know,
to send all the others to hell? Nice God, this is that you have created.

It doesn't seem to me that Jesus was this unjust when He walked this earth and He WAS God. Maybe Jesus just didn't know what He was doing or saying.
When He said from the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" what could He have meant?
Maybe He wanted God to forgive just that select few that God chose?
So then why have a crucifixion at all?
God is sovereign. He could do whatever He wishes.
He could have just proclaimed the lucky chosen ones SAVED! And they would have been.
He's powerful like that - He could do what He wants to do.

Just like you believe He's so sovereign and powerful that He could just send people to hell
without a reason and without JUSTIFICATION. Strange that a JUST God should have no JUSTIFICATION for an action of His.

John 3:18 and 36 say the same thing.
THOSE WHO ACCEPT this sacrifice of Jesus, are saved
THOSE WHO DO NOT ACCEPT are lost.

Why would these two verses even exist UNLESS I had a CHOICE to make??
To EITHER ACCEPT
or NOT ACCEPT.

That sounds like a choice to me. A choice I have to make and has not already been
made for me.
You could also refer to my post no. 167 for more detail on the above.

I await you reply with baited breath
And I certainly hope that this time it WILL be a reply.
Or this thread could just lock down.

Wondering

Wondering,

That is very well stated. Congratulations for seeing the light of God's redemption in Christ and receiving that redemption.

I hope you realise that beloved57 CANNOT conclude as you and I do. Take a look at the footer on every one of this person's posts, starting with the OP. It states, 'SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE'. Presuppositions make a powerful impact on one's conclusions. So when 'saved by sovereign grace' is the starting point, it is not surprising that the concluding point is as stated by beloved57 at #162:

The problem still remains for you guys, some are reconciled to God by Christ's death while enemies Rom 5:10, and others are not Jn 3:18,36. That point alone shows, proves that Christ did not die for all men without exception !

The problem does not remain for us guys at all. The problem remains with the steadfast immovable presupposition of beloved57, SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE and not as stated in Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So you are evading the main point of the thread.

Not at all. You are spinning the wheels repeating the same old, same old verses and going nowhere. I've answered the main point of the thread, but I don't begin where you do with SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE. I begin with Eph 2:8 (ESV), 'BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH'.

There is no point in discussing Scriptures that contradict your SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE as you won't engage with us to discuss how these OTHER Scriptures do not support your decreed, deterministic, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace of Calvinism's SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE.

Have you ever tried convincing an Aussie he really has an American accent and that it's impossible for him to speak English in any other way with any other than a Yankee accent because the Yankee accent is the only genuine English way to pronounce English in Australia? That's the kind of analogy that applies just as strongly to your refusal to see salvation any other way than the Calvinistic SAVED BY SOVEREIGN GRACE.

Oz