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No conditions to be reconciled !

  • Thread starter Thread starter beloved57
  • Start date Start date
Have I missed something that you were trying to communicate?
All of mankind will be raised from the grave.
Physical death has been defeated by Christ's resurrection in a human body.
All of mankind will be raised "immortal" and "incorruptible." (1 Cor 15:53)
I understand that to mean first, that all of mankind will experience the resurrection; second, that the resurrected body to be immortal and incorruptible.( That body will never cease to function and will never be subject to disease, decay, aging, etc.)
I understand this to be the case based on Paul's comments at 1Co 15:51-54

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

And, finally, I understand that some will inherit the kingdom of heaven (mat 25:34-40) and be eternally united to God in Christ. (Eph 5:32-32) They will receive God's eternal life by being united to Christ while the rest will be eternally separated from God in what has been described as"eternal fire" (Mat 25:41) the "outer darkness" and "the lake of burning sulfur" and the "second death."

Neither those who inherit the kingdom nor those who depart for the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, will ever cease to exist in their resurrected, immortal and incorruptible bodies.

And that's how I see it.

jim
 
All of mankind will be raised from the grave.

Jim,

You still have not answered my question: How can 'all of mankind' rise from the grave when all of mankind has not died and has gone to the grave? There will be some still alive at Christ's second coming.

I can accept that all human beings who have died will rise from the grave when bodies in the grave are resurrected. However, that cannot apply to those who are still alive. Yes, their bodies will be changed, but that is not through a resurrected body that has come out of the grave.

It does not make sense to say that 'all of mankind' will rise from the grave when there will be a large mass of people still alive at the Parousia.

Oz
 
You still have not answered my question: How can 'all of mankind' rise from the grave when all of mankind has not died and has gone to the grave? There will be some still alive at Christ's second coming.
AH! I see what you mean. Of course those who are alive won't be resurrected.
The vast majority of mankind that has ever lived will be dead at the time of His coming. They (the dead) will all be raised.

jim
 
AH! I see what you mean. Of course those who are alive won't be resurrected.
The vast majority of mankind that has ever lived will be dead at the time of His coming. They (the dead) will all be raised.

jim

Agreed!:thumb
 
JP



That is not what that verse says.
Please provide the basis of your disagreement. Just merely stating a disagreement is not appropriate for the A&T forum.
 
JP

That is not what that verse says.

1 Cor 15:53 (HCSB) states, 'For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality'. Now please exegete this verse and tell us what it says or means. An assertion is not exegesis.

Oz
 
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, which is not the case for all enemies and unbelievers Jn 3:18,36. Please explain that. [edited]
Kinda hard to explain anything when the meat's been edited out.
Christ dies for ALL of mankind and ALL of mankind is offered the gift of eternal life.
Not everyone wants it.
 
Kinda hard to explain anything when the meat's been edited out.
Christ dies for ALL of mankind and ALL of mankind is offered the gift of eternal life.
Not everyone wants it.
No scripture says Christ died for all mankind and that he is offered the gift of eternal life. Show it to me !
 
Not all men are reconciled to God while they are enemies by Christs death Rom 5:10 since some men are under Gods wrath and condemnation as they are enemies Jn 3:18,36 so that eliminates the false notion that Christ died for all mankind without exception, which the scripture never says any way !
 
Not all men are reconciled to God while they are enemies by Christs death Rom 5:10 since some men are under Gods wrath and condemnation as they are enemies Jn 3:18,36 so that eliminates the false notion that Christ died for all mankind without exception, which the scripture never says any way !

The interpretation you have given to those verses contradicts 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV), 'For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe'.

To achieve your kind of interpretation, Paul to Timothy would simply write 'who is the Savior ... of those who believe'. But, no, he didn't write that because he wanted to emphasise two things: (1) God is the Savior of ALL people, but (2) this applies 'especially to THOSE WHO BELIEVE'. Paul is very deliberate in teaching two things about being the Savior of ALL, but the inference is that not all will believe, so he is the Savior 'especially of those who believe'.

It's really quite simple if you would remove your presuppositional bias against Jesus being the Savior of ALL, but only those who believe are saved.

Repeating Rom 5:10 and John 3:18, 36 over and over do not make your case any more convincing. It is especially less convincing when you leave out v. 11 of Rom 5:10-11.

Oz
 
Last edited:
No scripture says Christ died for all mankind and that he is offered the gift of eternal life. Show it to me !
I have already posted the scriptures several times.
But I can't "show" you anything you don't want to see.
And, since you have made it clear that (1) you don't agree and (2) you are not willing to explain you position, I don't think we have anything further to discuss.

You have a wonderful day.

iakov the fool :confused2
 
ozpen

The interpretation you have given to those verses contradicts 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV),

Thats what you say, you have to prove that. Rom 5:10 is clear that those Christ died for were reconciled to God while enemies, and Jn 3:18,36 is clear some men are under Gods Wrarth and condemnation as enemies !
 
I have already posted the scriptures several times.
But I can't "show" you anything you don't want to see.
And, since you have made it clear that (1) you don't agree and (2) you are not willing to explain you position, I don't think we have anything further to discuss.

You have a wonderful day.

iakov the fool :confused2
I have no problem with the scripture you quoted, though none of them says anything about all men without exception are in Christ, also none of them explain how some men are reconciled to God while being enemies by Christ's death Rom 5:10, and others are not Jn 3:18,36 if Christ died for all men without exception !
 
Yeah it is.
See how easy that was? :lol
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
See? Easy-peasy.

iakove the fool :confused2
Thanks Jim Parker
I needed that!

I'm having trouble following along because beloved57 is to theological for me.

However, I think what he means is that when you quote
"...so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive"

he thinks YOU are saying that because of Christ's death ALL men are saved - thus universalism.

But I can't be sure of this - he's too deep for me.

Wondering
 
I have no problem with the scripture you quoted, though none of them says anything about all men without exception are in Christ, also none of them explain how some men are reconciled to God while being enemies by Christ's death Rom 5:10, and others are not Jn 3:18,36 if Christ died for all men without exception !

Repeating the same verses with the same emphasis does not demonstrate you understand the point I've made.

You have not answered what I wrote at #163 regarding 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV). I'm waiting!
 
Reconciliation by Christs death is not just unilateral !

The terrible mistake of false religion is to believe and teach that Christs death is only unilateral in its effect, but that is a grave
mistake. You see, that makes the death of Christ falling short of reconciling , bringing man to God, which the scripture teaches that it does. Peter writes of the death of Christ this fact 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he mightbring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

See, His suffering for our sins was for the purpose of bringing us to God ! He by it, leads us to God. It also :


  1. to render one acceptable to God

    It does that which God told cain that if he did well he would be accepted Gen 4:7

    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?



    Well Christ death, for all whom He suffered and died for causes them to be accepted of God, without them doing anything !

    Christ's reconciling death will also cause us to come to God in being saved to the uttermost Heb 7:25

    25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    Notice " them that come to God BY HIM ! Meaning His reconciling work which brings them to God 1 Pet 3:18 !

    Paul writes also Col 1: 21,22a

    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,yet now hath he reconciled. How ?

    22a 22 In the body of his flesh through death,

    So those who teach that Christ's death effected only a unilateral reconciliation, they teach lies, they teach ignorantly, and do Christ's death accomplishment a disservice !
 
Hi Oz,
I'm not getting involved in this,
but I LOVE
John 3:16

Wondering
no. 173 How could any reconciliation be unilateral?
I'm outta here...
 
Repeating the same verses with the same emphasis does not demonstrate you understand the point I've made.

You have not answered what I wrote at #163 regarding 1 Tim 4:10 (ESV). I'm waiting!
The point you have tried to make has done nothing to resolve the point I have made in the OP which is what I want to discuss since thats what I started out with. I have no problem with 1 Tim 4:10, have you studied that scripture thoroughly before bringing it into this discussion ? Thats your responsibility, not mine !
 
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