no secret rapture. no pretrib possible. (duplicate thread)

[His_nee (Jeff)]

in the other thread, "rapture theory" it was already proven, so this thread is more just a post of a bibliography for those who haven't realized it yet. if it's not clear , then it won't be clear. if it is clear, then it is clear.

K9 Safe Search >>>> (search terms)
< the story of the rapture started in 1832 >
About 2,510,000 results
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(I left them in order, including maybe one or two that are wrong, so test everything)
Margaret MacDonald Who? - Rapture Ready
One common point used on nearly every one of these sites to oppose the pretribulation doctrine is the claim that the rapture theory was started by a Scottish girl ...www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html
Chapter 17: The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin
It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. ... that were the spark that started the false teaching ... Rapture Plot (Simpsonville, SC ...askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm
Rapture of the Church - MB Soft
Articles on the Rapture of the Church and ... J., Brethren: The Story of a Great Recovery ... a charismatic service conducted by Edward Irving in 1832.www.mb-soft.com/believe/txw/rapture.htm
Rapture -- The real truth - Tripod.com
Satan loves the pre tribulation rapture theory for a number of reasons, ... In 1831 or 1832 a Presbyterian pastor in ... Why is the creation story told twice in ...robertwells.tripod.com/Rapture.html
Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
The kingdom is the church which was started on Pentecost. 3. ... D. Rapture doctrine invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830: ... (about the year 1832), ...www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm
The Secret Rapture Theory: Its Origin - Evangeland
Let's consider: The Enquirer was known for (and has admitted) making up stories , then ... the Rapture of the church ... the spark that started the false ...evangeland.com/Secret-Rapture-Theory.html
The Mystery of the Rapture- You Are the Sons & Daughters of ...
Story Views: Now: Last Hour: ... Why all the “mystery’ surrounding the Rapture of ... The ‘Rapture Theory” is a false belief started in 1832 by a ...beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/11/the-mystery-of-the...
Does the idea of the rapture of the church, followed by seven ...
If you actually read the bible it says nothing about a rapture. The concept originated in 1832. ... rapture started in ... story of the rapture/anti ...https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=...

 

[JLB]

in the other thread, "rapture theory" it was already proven, so this thread is more just a post of a bibliography for those who haven't realized it yet. if it's not clear , then it won't be clear. if it is clear, then it is clear.

K9 Safe Search >>>> (search terms)
< the story of the rapture started in 1832 >
About 2,510,000 results
(0 results blocked on this page) (I'm not sure how to make the links below easier, just click and read)
(I left them in order, including maybe one or two that are wrong, so test everything)
Margaret MacDonald Who? - Rapture Ready
One common point used on nearly every one of these sites to oppose the pretribulation doctrine is the claim that the rapture theory was started by a Scottish girl ...www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html
Chapter 17: The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin
It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. ... that were the spark that started the false teaching ... Rapture Plot (Simpsonville, SC ...askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm
Rapture of the Church - MB Soft
Articles on the Rapture of the Church and ... J., Brethren: The Story of a Great Recovery ... a charismatic service conducted by Edward Irving in 1832.www.mb-soft.com/believe/txw/rapture.htm
Rapture -- The real truth - Tripod.com
Satan loves the pre tribulation rapture theory for a number of reasons, ... In 1831 or 1832 a Presbyterian pastor in ... Why is the creation story told twice in ...robertwells.tripod.com/Rapture.html
Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
The kingdom is the church which was started on Pentecost. 3. ... D. Rapture doctrine invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830: ... (about the year 1832), ...www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm
The Secret Rapture Theory: Its Origin - Evangeland
Let's consider: The Enquirer was known for (and has admitted) making up stories , then ... the Rapture of the church ... the spark that started the false ...evangeland.com/Secret-Rapture-Theory.html
The Mystery of the Rapture- You Are the Sons & Daughters of ...
Story Views: Now: Last Hour: ... Why all the “mystery’ surrounding the Rapture of ... The ‘Rapture Theory” is a false belief started in 1832 by a ...beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/11/the-mystery-of-the...
Does the idea of the rapture of the church, followed by seven ...
If you actually read the bible it says nothing about a rapture. The concept originated in 1832. ... rapture started in ... story of the rapture/anti ...https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=...

Here is the one verse that must be changed or re worded in some way by Pretribbers, because it shows the truth.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept . 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

This verse shows that the resurrection happens for all of Christ's and all at the same time.

The rapture happens after the resurrection.

So, it is impossible for the rapture to take place before the tribulation, because the resurrection happens for all at the same time, at His Coming!

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Once this truth is made known, then all the other scriptures can not be distorted and twisted.



JLB

 

[reba]

 

[tacdon]

Here is the one verse that must be changed or re worded in some way by Pretribbers, because it shows the truth.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept . 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

This verse shows that the resurrection happens for all of Christ's and all at the same time.

The rapture happens after the resurrection.

So, it is impossible for the rapture to take place before the tribulation, because the resurrection happens for all at the same time, at His Coming!

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Once this truth is made known, then all the other scriptures can not be distorted and twisted.



JLB

This is talking about the ones who are dead, it is not talking about the ones who are alive.

Matthew 24:39
and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:40
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:40 is describing what will happen to people who are alive during the rapture.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

and yet, not the way anyone is told..... remember it is like unto the days of Noah -- the one taken is the wicked one. the one left is the righteous one. the righteous, "MEEK" inherit the earth..... the wicked get the lake. (and some in varying degrees may get different, Yhwh knows)....
also,
when the Righteous (by faith) are taken up to be with the Lord, it is at the same time seen all over the earth "like lightning from east to west" i.e. no secret, not quiet, no! and those taken up to meet the Lord then start ruling with Him on earth.... ta da so simple !

 

[JLB]

This is talking about the ones who are dead, it is not talking about the ones who are alive.

Matthew 24:39
and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:40
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:40 is describing what will happen to people who are alive during the rapture.

Are you saying that Jesus Coming and the resurrection of all those who are His will happen before the great Tribulation?

JLB

 

[turnorburn]

He's saying ta da so simple.. :wink

tob

 

[turnorburn]

Oops' wrong member said that, couldn't edit something about a java script error..

tob

 

[tacdon]

and yet, not the way anyone is told..... remember it is like unto the days of Noah -- the one taken is the wicked one. the one left is the righteous one. the righteous, "MEEK" inherit the earth..... the wicked get the lake. (and some in varying degrees may get different, Yhwh knows)....
also,
when the Righteous (by faith) are taken up to be with the Lord, it is at the same time seen all over the earth "like lightning from east to west" i.e. no secret, not quiet, no! and those taken up to meet the Lord then start ruling with Him on earth.... ta da so simple !

God takes the ones who do the right thing in this story.

Let's look at the story of the virgins.

“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

 

[veryberry]

For a justified believer to have to go through the wrath, all justified believers who are asleep, would be in hell in torment. We all know this is not the case. Not one hair of a justified believer will go through any of the wrath. Praise God for that blessed hope!

 

[reba]

Stephen was the first of many

 

[tacdon]

I hope pretrib is right, I don't want to go through the tribulation period.

 

[veryberry]

Stephen was the first of many

Stephen was the first of many what? To go through the wrath of God? The time of Jacobs trouble has not happened yet....Even if that were true, Stephen was not part of the body of Christ anyways, he was part of the little flock.

 

[JLB]

Stephen was the first of many what? To go through the wrath of God? The time of Jacobs trouble has not happened yet....Even if that were true, Stephen was not part of the body of Christ anyways, he was part of the little flock.

The time of Jacobs Trouble was the Halocaust.

Jacob was a diaspora term that was a reference to Israel when they were scattered abroad.

They are in the promised land today.


JLB

 

[reba]

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

 

[raoul duke]

Here is the one verse that must be changed or re worded in some way by Pretribbers, because it shows the truth.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept . 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

This verse shows that the resurrection happens for all of Christ's and all at the same time.

The rapture happens after the resurrection.

So, it is impossible for the rapture to take place before the tribulation, because the resurrection happens for all at the same time, at His Coming!

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Once this truth is made known, then all the other scriptures can not be distorted and twisted.



JLB

excellent post, think of it from a logic standpoint also, why would Jesus all believers that they would suffer persecution, except for the last generation because they're so special they get raptured while every one else has to suffer. It sounds more like an entitlement philosophy to me, that's how I know it's false

 

[Edward]

Uh-oh, rapture thread. It must be time to fess up. I was a hard core pre-trib believer until recently. I can make a very convincing case for a pre trib rapture, scriptures and all. However...I have done homework and praying about this and have recently changed my view to post trib.

When you set aside pre-conceived beliefs and study the Word for what it actually says, I believe that it makes sense for a post trib.

Want some scriptures? Ok. First off, scripture says that we wont go through Gods "wrath" and you are correct about this. But brother, wrath and tribulation are not the same things.

We are promised tribulation. It refines and purifys us.

Revelation 7:14
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb./

Out of great tribulation? Oh. An if we were raptured before the tribulation, does not the Holy Spirit go with us? How would people get saved during the tribulation if no Holy Spirit were here? As a Christian expect to face trials and tribulation in life, especially in this generation as the world grows more wicked each day. Don’t let them get you down, but rejoice when you go through them for you will come out a stronger, more mature servant of God, ready to take care of business. For God allows us to go through trials and tribulation in order to purge us, purify us, and prepare us for His service.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:/

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ./

Look at this one

Matthew 25:31-
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:/

Now why would the sheep and goats need to be separated if the sheep are already gone in rapture?

Along the same line of thinking...

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn./

What's that parable about, and what harvest? The harvest of the Lord brother, His people. I have more, and am certainly not finished with my studies of this, but this seems to be becoming clear to me. The tribulation is all about the bride and making her spotless for Him. Refining by fire and tribulation such as the world has never seen before.

 

[JLB]

Uh-oh, rapture thread. It must be time to fess up. I was a hard core pre-trib believer until recently. I can make a very convincing case for a pre trib rapture, scriptures and all. However...I have done homework and praying about this and have recently changed my view to post trib.

When you set aside pre-conceived beliefs and study the Word for what it actually says, I believe that it makes sense for a post trib.

Want some scriptures? Ok. First off, scripture says that we wont go through Gods "wrath" and you are correct about this. But brother, wrath and tribulation are not the same things.

We are promised tribulation. It refines and purifys us.

Revelation 7:14
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb./

Out of great tribulation? Oh. An if we were raptured before the tribulation, does not the Holy Spirit go with us? How would people get saved during the tribulation if no Holy Spirit were here? As a Christian expect to face trials and tribulation in life, especially in this generation as the world grows more wicked each day. Don’t let them get you down, but rejoice when you go through them for you will come out a stronger, more mature servant of God, ready to take care of business. For God allows us to go through trials and tribulation in order to purge us, purify us, and prepare us for His service.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:/

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ./

Look at this one

Matthew 25:31-
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:/

Now why would the sheep and goats need to be separated if the sheep are already gone in rapture?

Along the same line of thinking...

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn./

What's that parable about, and what harvest? The harvest of the Lord brother, His people. I have more, and am certainly not finished with my studies of this, but this seems to be becoming clear to me. The tribulation is all about the bride and making her spotless for Him. Refining by fire and tribulation such as the world has never seen before.

Edward!!!!

:amen:woot

 

[Edward]

You are one brother who caused me to take a closer look at this while setting aside by previous beliefs. You are a good brother and very adamant about your view. i don't take that lightly so began my homework to see if there was anything i missed. Context of the entire scripture is vital. I respect you and thank you for your convictions brother. Another highly respected brother of the board also caused me to look closer.

 

[Edward]

Speaking of context!...here's another scripture that was (as you know) a much posted scripture in support of the pre trib rapture. let's look closer for context, shall we?

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth./

So this is a promise to rapture us out before the trib, right?

Revelation 3:7-16
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth./

Are we the church of Philadelphia? Would not all of these scriptures apply to us. We can't just take a single scripture and bypass the rest. Evenso, it speaks of him that overcometh...overcome what if we are raptured out? Interesting to say the least.