no secret rapture. no pretrib possible. (duplicate thread)

[Kathi]

no. as he stated, if someone was already gone, they wouldn't need to be 'kept' or 'protected'.

Jesus told His follower to expect persecution. to "embrace suffering" , not to run from it; so it would be out of line for Him to pull them out.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.Like I said in the above statement that is my view.Everyone on here has there own view.If you get twenty different people on the End Times forum you might get twenty different views of their interpretation of scripture.I just take things literally.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

the trouble isn't if we agree or disagree. well, it is, but not to go into here. the trouble is the other things that go along with the lie of the pre-trib catching away that have been hurting the body of Christ and people seeking the Kingdom of God since 1832. other things that go along with it cause real and lasting harm. that is the problem. there really is no way to get through that here. there's no way to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced of anything. and the hurt and pain and loss to the body of Christ and believers or potential believers will keep going on.

btw, it is a good thing to get through these things in the body of Christ, as it is a part of growing and purifying and restoring what was lost long ago.
but it will take a long time, most likely, as dozens of different matters will bubble to the top as the purification continues (or if it is allowed to continue, Yhwh willing and others seeking His Kingdom).
without the purification, people get worse and worse.
there's no "standing still". the body either gets better and stronger and purer, or it falls apart. no in-between.

 

[Kathi]

the trouble isn't if we agree or disagree. well, it is, but not to go into here. the trouble is the other things that go along with the lie of the pre-trib catching away that have been hurting the body of Christ and people seeking the Kingdom of God since 1832. other things that go along with it cause real and lasting harm. that is the problem. there really is no way to get through that here. there's no way to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced of anything. and the hurt and pain and loss to the body of Christ and believers or potential believers will keep going on.

And you have a nice night and God Bless.

 

[Edward]

Right so those words are telling us the Jesus will come and get the Church before the tribulation and before the "hour of trial"

Sister, i know exactly how you feel. i was pre-trib for a very long time, and understood this scripture in Rev 3;10 exactly as you do, and held it up as a pre-trib proof. It took a very long time for me to change my mind on it, and I didn't want to! i just kept studying to be sure and so forth. I respect your belief, but may I ask you one question?

For the sake of respect and discussion, let's say, ok, there IS a pre-trib rapture. Gods people have been raptured out and are in Heaven...(Perhaps even the Holy Spirit is gone also, which is what I believed...not sure how you feel about that)

So now...what's going on on earth now that Gods people are raptured out? What is the purpose of the great trib?

 

[n2thelight]

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"2:1 is not a rapture

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

What Day is this?It is the Day of the Lord,ie the 2nd coming...

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again,what day ?

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].


Now, some rapturist say,the Holy spirit will be removed,if that's the case,(which it's not),how do people come to Christ?

Christians are too remain in the field until Christ comes,not get raptured,when the battle gets hot,and when satan gets here,it will be the biggest(spiritual)battle in the history of mankind....Christians don't run we fight....And how do we do that?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Shortly, Michael will cast Satan out of heaven [Revelation 12:7], and he will be on the earth in person ruling as the Antichrist. When the spirit of Antichrist rules, God will also give His elect the Spirit and power of the Holy Spirit; which will have power to subdue all evil spirits. In Luke 10:18, Jesus said; "We have the power over all our enemies", and Satan is our enemy.

Now is the time that we had better be preparing ourselves; to know what is going to transpire, and what we must have to use against Satan, and all his forces. We must know him and all his names; the Antichrist, the serpent, the king of Tyre, the devil, and all of his other names, which will alert us to his actions.

Okay,now speaking of the elect,....Christ said because of His Elect,the trib would be cut short,my question is,why would His Elect miss the rapture?

 

[YogiD2]

Prepare for the worse and pray & hope for the best.
Rapture or no rapture we know not the time of the end. It will be on us all before we know it. And if people are "raptured" away and no one who is "of christ" is here then we imo are not needing everything in Revalations and the beasts mark is of no concern. Things will get tough for true christians and we may face being burned on a steak again. There is imo no pre trib rapture. And mid trib rapture. But I know not gods true plans. God will give US christians Strength!
I do have a family But I as a former solider I take Jesus as my true commander and I hope he makes my hand steady for war.

 

[YogiD2]

Prepare for the worse and pray & hope for the best.
Rapture or no rapture we know not the time of the end. It will be on us all before we know it. And if people are "raptured" away and no one who is "of christ" is here then we imo are not needing everything in Revalations and the beasts mark is of no concern. Things will get tough for true christians and we may face being burned on a steak again. There is imo no pre trib rapture. And mid trib rapture. But I know not gods true plans. God will give US christians Strength!
I do have a family But I as a former solider I take Jesus as my true commander and I hope he makes my hand steady for war.

 

[JLB]

Prepare for the worse and pray & hope for the best.
Rapture or no rapture we know not the time of the end. It will be on us all before we know it. And if people are "raptured" away and no one who is "of christ" is here then we imo are not needing everything in Revalations and the beasts mark is of no concern. Things will get tough for true christians and we may face being burned on a steak again. There is imo no pre trib rapture. And mid trib rapture. But I know not gods true plans. God will give US christians Strength!
I do have a family But I as a former solider I take Jesus as my true commander and I hope he makes my hand steady for war.

There will definitely be a Rapture.

It will be just after the Resurrection of the dead, which will occur at Jesus' Coming.

The Coming of the Lord will not be secret, as every eye will see Him


JLB

 

[Edward]

What is the purpose of the great trib?

This is a very good honest question here. Our good sister did not or could not answer this, but can anyone else? Anyone? Bueller? :biggrin

 

[n2thelight]

This is a very good honest question here. Our good sister did not or could not answer this, but can anyone else? Anyone? Bueller? :biggrin

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

 

[JLB]

This is a very good honest question here. Our good sister did not or could not answer this, but can anyone else? Anyone? Bueller? :biggrin

To expose those who are true from those who are false, and to see who Loves God and loves truth.

The time of the end will have the most people on earth since the beginning.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-3


JLB

 

[Edward]

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

That would be correct brother. If the trib was about evil people then there'd be no point to it. He could just take His people and put the rest in hell. This is about believers and if He raptures them out they wouldn't be here for the trial.

 

[Deborah13]

That would be correct brother. If the trib was about evil people then there'd be no point to it. He could just take His people and put the rest in hell. This is about believers and if He raptures them out they wouldn't be here for the trial.

imo
The tribulation is/was not to test believers. It is/was a day of vengeance on unbelievers.

What is it that unbelievers don't believe? They don't believe the truth, they believe the opposite of the truth. That is the lie that they believe.
What is the truth?

 

[John S]

The TRUTH is that believers WILL be tested - because there will NOT be a Pre-Trib Rapture and NO ONE is going anywhere.

 

[reba]

Our brothers and sisters in the Lord are in great tribulation in the Sudan among other places....

 

[Deborah13]

The TRUTH is that believers WILL be tested - because there will NOT be a Pre-Trib Rapture and NO ONE is going anywhere.

I don't believe there will be a rapture of all believers until the Lord returns. I do not believe in a pre-trib, mid-trib rapture. I believe the one's at are still alive when Jesus returns for the last time will be caught up to be with Him.

All tribulation is a time of the testing of our faith. I did not say that it wasn't.

However, the specific tribulation spoken of in Matthew, Mark, and Luke says,

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Who does Jesus tell to flee? Who is the vengeance intended for? So what is the purpose of this tribulation? If it were to test believers faith would Jesus tell the believers to flee, to depart before it began?

 

[reba]

What was the vengeance for?

 

[Deborah13]

What was the vengeance for?

Deu 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

I believe that the Messiah is the controversy of Zion that is spoken of in Isa. 34:8.

 

[Sinthesis]

What was the vengeance for?

Mat 27:25 - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

 

[Deborah13]

Mat 27:25 - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Thank you Sinthesis !