Not Forgiven, but BORN AGAIN

[JLB]

According to the Granville Sharp rule, being born again consists of two elements, being born of water and the spirit. According to this rule being born of water cannot refer to one's physical birth. It says that being born again consists of two elements, water and spirit.

I don’t know what the “Granville Sharp rule” is.

I do know what Jesus said, as He defined what being born of water and the Spirit consisted of.

When one sees that Jesus is teaching about birth and remains faithful to the context, it’s easy to understand His explanation in verse 6.

When one tries to introduce a context other than birth, other than being born, that’s when the clear teaching of Christ is obscured.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


There are two distinct and different elements involved here.


One is natural.
One is spiritual.


Jesus plainly explained what he meant by being born of water and the Spirit in verse 6.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


So my question to you is;

How is one born of water, if not by the natural birth process ?


We know that spiritually we are born of the Spirit.


JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I don’t know what the “Granville Sharp rule” is.

I do know what Jesus said, as He defined what being born of water and the Spirit consisted of.

When one sees that Jesus is teaching about birth and remains faithful to the context, it’s easy to understand His explanation in verse 6.

When one tries to introduce a context other than birth, other than being born, that’s when the clear teaching of Christ is obscured.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


There are two distinct and different elements involved here.


One is natural.
One is spiritual.


Jesus plainly explained what he meant by being born of water and the Spirit in verse 6.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


So my question to you is;

How is one born of water, if not by the natural birth process ?


We know that spiritually we are born of the Spirit.


JLB

I am interested in the concept of water purification in Mosaic law.

13 Whoever touches the dead body of anyone and fails to purify himself defiles the LORD's tabernacle. That person must be cut off from Israel. Because the water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on him, he is unclean; his uncleanness remains on him.
Num 19:13

25 just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Eph 5:25-26

7 After that, the priest must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water. He may then come into the camp, but he will be ceremonially unclean till evening
Num 19:7

Fresh water is a symbol of cleansing, purification of priests, unclean people, those cure of disease. This is embedded in Jewish culture when dealing with someone who has died, or contamination from mould etc or disease. The priest to enter the temple needed to purified through washing to be considered pure.

So when the subject comes of entering Gods presence, purification through water is a continuing theme.

From our gentile perspective we regard water as something we drink and clean ourself with, but not in a religious setting other than baptism. It is a modern idea talking about the breaking of waters in child birth is the water referred to here.

Looking a being born and water the only connection in scripture is with water washing the new born.

4 On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths.
Eze 16:4

I would therefore suggest when water is being referred to in regard to the Spirit it is the fresh water of purification. To enter Gods presence all priests had to be washed. So we equally have to be cleansed through repentance to be anointed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t know what the “Granville Sharp rule” is.

I do know what Jesus said, as He defined what being born of water and the Spirit consisted of.

When one sees that Jesus is teaching about birth and remains faithful to the context, it’s easy to understand His explanation in verse 6.

When one tries to introduce a context other than birth, other than being born, that’s when the clear teaching of Christ is obscured.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


There are two distinct and different elements involved here.


One is natural.
One is spiritual.


Jesus plainly explained what he meant by being born of water and the Spirit in verse 6.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


So my question to you is;

How is one born of water, if not by the natural birth process ?


We know that spiritually we are born of the Spirit.


JLB

I've considered this well and I agree with you.
If someone wants to believe it's baptism, I find nothing very wrong with it...

However, how one comes to this conclusion is a mystery to me.

Nicodemus plainly asks how a man could enter back into the womb. Alluding to natural birth.

Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit...
These, it seems to me, are the TWO births....
one of the flesh,
one of the spirit.

And how could it be baptism?
One is born once of the water of baptism,,,
and then again in the spirit?
Are we not baptized in water to receive the spirit....
So, in effect, we would be being baptized in the spirit twice.

Being born of the FLESH
and being born of the SPIRIT
helped me a great deal in understanding my relationship with God when I was a new Christian.

 

[JLB]

25 just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Eph 5:25-26

Think of the laver, that was set before the tabernacle in which the priests who were “enter in” would look into the mirrors to see where they needed to be cleansed, then wash with the water in the laver.


Likewise we look into word, the perfect law of liberty, to see where we need to be cleansed, to adhere to the truth, to conform to His image.... yet we don’t wash with the word, we are washed and cleansed through confessing our sin, our wrong attitudes, our short comings, to Him who is able to wash us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness and present us as spotless and blameless.





JLB

 

[JLB]

I've considered this well and I agree with you.
If someone wants to believe it's baptism, I find nothing very wrong with it...

However, how one comes to this conclusion is a mystery to me.

Nicodemus plainly asks how a man could enter back into the womb. Alluding to natural birth.

Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit...
These, it seems to me, are the TWO births....
one of the flesh,
one of the spirit.

And how could it be baptism?
One is born once of the water of baptism,,,
and then again in the spirit?
Are we not baptized in water to receive the spirit....
So, in effect, we would be being baptized in the spirit twice.

Being born of the FLESH
and being born of the SPIRIT
helped me a great deal in understanding my relationship with God when I was a new Christian.

Exactly.


It’s when a person introduces a narrative from outside the context of birth, such as baptism, that the truth becomes distorted.

This comes from a belief system that is in place from a teaching of man, rather than the teaching of Christ.

Paul calls this carnal.

In another place he calls it a stronghold, that exalts itself or resists the knowledge of God.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I would therefore suggest when water is being referred to in regard to the Spirit it is the fresh water of purification. To enter Gods presence all priests had to be washed. So we equally have to be cleansed through repentance to be anointed by the Holy Spirit.

For one the context is about birth: Natural and Spiritual birth.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, = Natural Birth
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. = Spiritual Birth


Jesus is plainly teaching that a man must be born, in order to be born again.


Being a natural descendant of Abraham, as was the Jewish mindset, was not enough.


You must be born again.


He reaffirmed this as He said in verse 12 -


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


earthly things; natural birth

heavenly things; spiritual birth




JLB

 

[JLB]

I would therefore suggest when water is being referred to in regard to the Spirit it is the fresh water of purification. To enter Gods presence all priests had to be washed.

Now we understand that fresh water to cleansed the body is only part of what we as priests are called to do.


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1




JLB

 

[JLB]

So we equally have to be cleansed through repentance to be anointed by the Holy Spirit.

I agree for sure, that we have to be cleansed through repentance.


Where we may differ in perspective, is I see John 3:1-12 contextually referring to birth; natural and spiritual birth.




JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I agree for sure, that we have to be cleansed through repentance.


Where we may differ in perspective, is I see John 3:1-12 contextually referring to birth; natural and spiritual birth.




JLB

It is interesting. To draw the analogy water is about flesh is the following couplet of physical birth and spiritual birth. I have noticed Jesus offers multilayered answers.

The idea water baptism forgave sins, I had excluded previously, but it was what John preached. Jesus also laid it at the centre of coming to faith. So I just say amen. If God commands I obey. I am open to being forgiven, and you cannot be too forgiven.

What I realised is free grace wants to deny forgiveness other than the cross, for anyone. This is the substitutional atonement only view and not relationship reconciliation and walking in God's ways. It devalues shadows and connecting to God and makes things impersonal and partial, or I would say unbelief

In whose eyes are we forgiven? Ours or God's? And if we are impure, what is cleansing for and becoming Holy temples?
Water is a key symbol of cleansing, which we have lost as a church.
I do not think holy water comes close.

Paul when he was arrested was following the purification rites, so he still valued this.

 

[JLB]

The idea water baptism forgave sins, I had excluded previously, but it was what John preached. Jesus also laid it at the centre of coming to faith. So I just say amen. If God commands I obey. I am open to being forgiven, and you cannot be too forgiven.

Amen to that, bro.?

 

[JLB]

It is interesting. To draw the analogy water is about flesh is the following couplet of physical birth and spiritual birth. I have noticed Jesus offers multilayered answers.

I see that John is the one that used this peculiar term, as he recorded the words of our Lord.

In 1 John 5, he used this term again as he said
“came by water and blood” to refer to the virgin birth.

Everyone comes into this world by water, even if by C Section, because the child is nourished in the mother’s womb in water.

He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; This is not only by water, but by water and blood. Anthe Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


Jesus is the only One to come into this world by both water and blood, proving He was born of a virgin, and fulfilled the word of the Lord, through the prophet Isaiah, proving He is the Messiah.


Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14


The Spirit is the witness, and the Spirit witnesses within each believer that Jesus was born of a virgin.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Exactly.


It’s when a person introduces a narrative from outside the context of birth, such as baptism, that the truth becomes distorted.

This comes from a belief system that is in place from a teaching of man, rather than the teaching of Christ.

Paul calls this carnal.

In another place he calls it a stronghold, that exalts itself or resists the knowledge of God.




JLB

The interesting point for me is why mention water, and not physical birth.
Whatever conclusion one draws, this is about what has taken place in the life of a believer, not conditionally is to come.

The importance of baptism is underlined, which is probably why John mentions it. Gentile believers tend to exclude everything unless doubly made plain.

Does ceremony have a place with the Lord? In covenant relationship, it appears so. Dedication, baptism, breaking of bread, praise and worship, marriage, funerals, testimonies, fellowship, good works, teaching.

 

[JLB]

The interesting point for me is why mention water, and not physical birth.

John’s mention of water refers to physical birth, which comes first, then spiritual birth.

IOW, in order to be born again, one must first be born physically.


The contextual narrative is about birth, physical and natural birth.

When one introduces a different subject matter such as baptism into the context, then it doesn’t makes sense nor does it align with what the scriptures teach about baptism.


No one is spiritually born from natural water.

We are spiritually born by the Spirit, not natural water.

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

John’s mention of water refers to physical birth, which comes first, then spiritual birth.

IOW, in order to be born again, one must first be born physically.


The contextual narrative is about birth, physical and natural birth.

When one introduces a different subject matter such as baptism into the context, then it doesn’t makes sense nor does it align with what the scriptures teach about baptism.


No one is spiritually born from natural water.

We are spiritually born by the Spirit, not natural water.

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

JLB

Water is about purification, washing away impurity, cleansing.
I think we get set ideas in our heads through analysing issues, not because there are not other perspectives involved.

Why did Paul go to Jerusalem for the purification rituals if it meant nothing to him?

Peter talked about praying for forgiveness of sins of others though not sins that lead to death.

16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
1 John 5:16

Jesus talked about binding things on earth and losing things on earth that will be bound in heaven or losed in heaven. Seems like quite a role and authority, which again I do not understand or know what practising it means.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
Matt 16:19

Salvation has always come through faith in God to forgive sins. With Moses it was sacrifices in the temple, with John the Baptist it was baptism, with Jesus it is the cross.

Water in John 3 is a unique reference to water as physical birth, which biblically is not a good foundation.

Jesus seems to be emphasising without the move of the Holy Spirit in our hearts we are lost, which is not our choice. Good soil will respond to the seed of the word when planted.

On this front, a thought struck me that God chose Israel, to plant seeds in their hearts from their childhood. He has always used families, and a culture to get across His meaning. It seems we need to see the example of Jesus lived out in others to truly grow. I wonder if we consider ourselves as part of that good Holy example. I certainly do not feel this automatically, but tend to devalue myself. But this could well be what it means to know Jesus, knowing our need.

 

[JLB]

Water is about purification, washing away impurity, cleansing.

I agree. Natural water is for cleansing.


Amen.

 

[JLB]

Water in John 3 is a unique reference to water as physical birth, which biblically is not a good foundation.

Isn’t a baby in water, while in the mother’s womb?

Doesn’t this point to baptism, being submerged in water?

The natural birth occurs through water, as the mothers water breaks, the child she gives birth to also breaks forth into new life, as we ourselves who are born again, are born of the Spirit into our new life.


The context of John 3:1-12 is about birth, natural and spiritual birth, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with water baptism.


When we understand the order of salvation and how baptism is involved, then it becomes clear.


Water Baptism has nothing to do with the new birth, nor does it have anything to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


Water Baptism is for people who have believed and are saved, born again already.


Would you like to discuss the three baptisms further, so maybe we can reach a common understanding?


I think it’s important for people to understand that we do not undergo spiritual birth, because we are dunked in natural water.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Water is about purification, washing away impurity, cleansing.
I think we get set ideas in our heads through analysing issues, not because there are not other perspectives involved.

Why did Paul go to Jerusalem for the purification rituals if it meant nothing to him?

Peter talked about praying for forgiveness of sins of others though not sins that lead to death.

16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
1 John 5:16

Jesus talked about binding things on earth and losing things on earth that will be bound in heaven or losed in heaven. Seems like quite a role and authority, which again I do not understand or know what practising it means.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
Matt 16:19

Salvation has always come through faith in God to forgive sins. With Moses it was sacrifices in the temple, with John the Baptist it was baptism, with Jesus it is the cross.

Water in John 3 is a unique reference to water as physical birth, which biblically is not a good foundation.

Jesus seems to be emphasising without the move of the Holy Spirit in our hearts we are lost, which is not our choice. Good soil will respond to the seed of the word when planted.

On this front, a thought struck me that God chose Israel, to plant seeds in their hearts from their childhood. He has always used families, and a culture to get across His meaning. It seems we need to see the example of Jesus lived out in others to truly grow. I wonder if we consider ourselves as part of that good Holy example. I certainly do not feel this automatically, but tend to devalue myself. But this could well be what it means to know Jesus, knowing our need.

Peter....you're confusing me!
First time.....

So you're saying that John 3 is speaking about actual water because the idea of it being natural birth sounds wrong to you?

In the bible water is for purifying,
Ezekiel 36:25
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.


John refers to water in his gospel as giving eternal life in Jesus,
John 4:14
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

And Mark tells us that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins,
Mark 1:4
4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So, agreed, the bible tells of different analogies for water....water baptism not being an analogy but in the sense of receiving the Holy Spirit, this is real in a spiritual sense.

But if John 3 is referring to baptism as in water...
why would Jesus say we have to be born twice?

You believe Jesus is referring to water in John 3?

 

[PeterJens]

Peter....you're confusing me!
First time.....

So you're saying that John 3 is speaking about actual water because the idea of it being natural birth sounds wrong to you?

In the bible water is for purifying,
Ezekiel 36:25
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.


John refers to water in his gospel as giving eternal life in Jesus,
John 4:14
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

And Mark tells us that baptism was for the forgiveness of sins,
Mark 1:4
4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So, agreed, the bible tells of different analogies for water....water baptism not being an analogy but in the sense of receiving the Holy Spirit, this is real in a spiritual sense.

But if John 3 is referring to baptism as in water...
why would Jesus say we have to be born twice?

You believe Jesus is referring to water in John 3?

There are themes in scripture. So one theme is forgiveness of sin. We talk of Jesus and the cross a lot in this regard, amen, but Jesus forgave sin, John preached baptism for forgiveness. So it struck me being cleansed is a stage, not the stage. Knowing God is the stage, like being polite is just not being rude, but it does not mean you like the people.

Sinners love to argue righteous walking is impossible, but they also miss love and connection.

So I am exploring cleansing and symbols of water. Washing is part of Jewish practice. Jesus ignored dirty hands. Even in our culture that is not good behaviour.

Cleansing, is part of daily life, dirt from to and fro of relationships.

So we are born physically and spiritually but washed and cleansed repeatedly. Washed in repentance and confession, purified and cleansed by forgiveness and grace, founded on our relationship. God bless

 

[PeterJens]

I see that John is the one that used this peculiar term, as he recorded the words of our Lord.

In 1 John 5, he used this term again as he said
“came by water and blood” to refer to the virgin birth.

Everyone comes into this world by water, even if by C Section, because the child is nourished in the mother’s womb in water.

He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; This is not only by water, but by water and blood. Anthe Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6


Jesus is the only One to come into this world by both water and blood, proving He was born of a virgin, and fulfilled the word of the Lord, through the prophet Isaiah, proving He is the Messiah.


Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14


The Spirit is the witness, and the Spirit witnesses within each believer that Jesus was born of a virgin.



JLB

I like this. John seems to pick out water and blood as significant. Maybe he links water is God's cleansing grace, constantly flowing, along with sacrifice for forgiveness.
Physical new life has both washing and blood, so does spiritual new birth. John was probably amazed by the connection. We often talk about in filling by the Holy Spirit.

I have to say blood sticks to what it touches, and needs to be washed. Maybe the image of forgiveness with the image of cleansing and purity.

The other phrase of perfected or made perfect, also conveys a sense of purpose of final expression, like creating a painting, which is only complete at the last brush stroke.

Some hate this idea of a mission that goes to reach a conclusion, with effort and purpose. Except God appears driven by these very issues, working towards things along a path with risks and choices, that define the true essence of perfection and love, like safety and security that is simple and easy is actually the opposite, an illusion in a world of dynamic forces and continual effort just to stand still.

In Jesus's day luxury was literally built on the backs of slaves. The life styles of Romans in Rome was built with 75% of the population being slaves. So what often appears cheap or easy for the rich person is often at the cost of the poor and those who work to make the things happen. Everything of value comes from effort and sacrifice, fighting, struggling, persevering to take hold of the prize, Amen.

 

[JLB]

I like this. John seems to pick out water and blood as significant. Maybe he links water is God's cleansing grace, constantly flowing, along with sacrifice for forgiveness.
Physical new life has both washing and blood, so does spiritual new birth. John was probably amazed by the connection. We often talk about in filling by the Holy Spirit.

I have to say blood sticks to what it touches, and needs to be washed. Maybe the image of forgiveness with the image of cleansing and purity.

The other phrase of perfected or made perfect, also conveys a sense of purpose of final expression, like creating a painting, which is only complete at the last brush stroke.

Some hate this idea of a mission that goes to reach a conclusion, with effort and purpose. Except God appears driven by these very issues, working towards things along a path with risks and choices, that define the true essence of perfection and love, like safety and security that is simple and easy is actually the opposite, an illusion in a world of dynamic forces and continual effort just to stand still.

In Jesus's day luxury was literally built on the backs of slaves. The life styles of Romans in Rome was built with 75% of the population being slaves. So what often appears cheap or easy for the rich person is often at the cost of the poor and those who work to make the things happen. Everything of value comes from effort and sacrifice, fighting, struggling, persevering to take hold of the prize, Amen.

It’s literal water and blood.

It’s not allegorical.

It refers to the water sac and hymen of the Virgin Mary.

Proving He was born of a virgin.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

Jesus came into this world by water and blood, not by water only.


Everyone else came into this world by water.


JLB