Not Forgiven, but BORN AGAIN

[PeterJens]

There are themes in scripture. So one theme is forgiveness of sin. We talk of Jesus and the cross a lot in this regard, amen, but Jesus forgave sin, John preached baptism for forgiveness. So it struck me being cleansed is a stage, not the stage. Knowing God is the stage, like being polite is just not being rude, but it does not mean you like the people.

Sinners love to argue righteous walking is impossible, but they also miss love and connection.

So I am exploring cleansing and symbols of water. Washing is part of Jewish practice. Jesus ignored dirty hands. Even in our culture that is not good behaviour.

Cleansing, is part of daily life, dirt from to and fro of relationships.

So we are born physically and spiritually but washed and cleansed repeatedly. Washed in repentance and confession, purified and cleansed by forgiveness and grace, founded on our relationship. God bless

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God John 3:5

Water here cannot refer to physical birth, because then the only limitation to entering heaven is born of the Spirit, as all are born of water of human birth.

Water here could well be the cleansing and purification of the heart through repentance and faith, symbolised in baptism, dying with Christ and raising with Him to new life.
Jesus is probably linking the reality with cleansing after repentance and faith, this is a precondition to birth in the Spirit, which if not achieved there is no eternity, because purity and holiness cannot be established. Equally without the presence of the Holy Spirit and communion the walk is impossible. What is odd in context this communion prior to the cross, was not the same, but Jesus is suggesting new birth in God still happened in the old testament.

To be deemed holy the priests had to be washed. Water was that very cleansing reality. In the new covenant, this is now symbolic washing, but spiritually none the less real.

So replacing water with cleansing, seems to fit. This was John the Baptists message, get clean for the day of the Lord, make straight your paths etc.

Equally saying this water is baptism seems too formal, ceremonial, where as cleansing is an eternal reality of the Kingdom. The problem with Jesus's language is he uses symbols all the time, yeast, the teaching of the pharisees, the word of God, a seed, faith is a tree, a fig tree is an unfruitful life of a nation or an individual.

 

[JLB]

Water here cannot refer to physical birth, because then the only limitation to entering heaven is born of the Spirit, as all are born of water of human birth.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus that natural birth alone (Abraham’s natural descendants) will not be enough see the kingdom of God.


The entire context is about birth.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

It’s literal water and blood.

It’s not allegorical.

It refers to the water sac and hymen of the Virgin Mary.

Proving He was born of a virgin.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

Jesus came into this world by water and blood, not by water only.


Everyone else came into this world by water.


JLB

Jesus came by water and blood, could also refer to Jesus coming in perfection and also sacrifice.
The argument that this refers to Mary being a virgin, unfortunately after having three children and my darling wife bleeding each time, birth very often involves blood which is not for me therefore an obvious connection. But connecting Jesus with cleased perfection and the absolute sacrifice for sin, is very biblical.

But I believe in the virgin birth, we are simply discussing what John might be referring to. And what it brings to my mind is the need to purify ourselves daily through our communion and dwelling in praise and worship of the King.

Each day things often stick to us emotionally which we need to let go and forgive and be cleansed of, like dust off ones feet after walking in a desert. God bless you brother.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus that natural birth alone (Abraham’s natural descendants) will not be enough see the kingdom of God.


The entire context is about birth.



JLB

Ah, I see this jump. Water is being looked at as being part of Israel here. Except all men are born of water, Israelities are circumcised into Israel on the 8th day. Water certainly does not refer to this circumcision, belonging to Israel, unless you are talking about the symbolic washing by passing through the red sea, which is referred to elsewhere as a type of baptism into Gods people.

I have certainly seen water implied to mean Israel, but when you look at the connection, it is not obviously there.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are themes in scripture. So one theme is forgiveness of sin. We talk of Jesus and the cross a lot in this regard, amen, but Jesus forgave sin, John preached baptism for forgiveness. So it struck me being cleansed is a stage, not the stage. Knowing God is the stage, like being polite is just not being rude, but it does not mean you like the people.

Sinners love to argue righteous walking is impossible, but they also miss love and connection.

So I am exploring cleansing and symbols of water. Washing is part of Jewish practice. Jesus ignored dirty hands. Even in our culture that is not good behaviour.

Cleansing, is part of daily life, dirt from to and fro of relationships.

So we are born physically and spiritually but washed and cleansed repeatedly. Washed in repentance and confession, purified and cleansed by forgiveness and grace, founded on our relationship. God bless

Your post brought to mind -- at the washing of the feet:
John 13:10
10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

Does this work into your idea?

 

[PeterJens]

Your post brought to mind -- at the washing of the feet:
John 13:10
10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”

Does this work into your idea?

Yes it is part of the picture, Jesus is encouraging.
Purification was an ongoing celebration linked to various festivals, which Paul partook in after coming to faith. It is obvious the apostles, James, talks about keeping ones tongue under control, which is almost impossible. So the concept of continual cleansing and purification is close to their hearts.

Our idea of perfection is a strict set of rules which clearly one is one side or the other. Paul talks about a conviction of conscience bringing one into sin. If we have a view of life has its struggles it also has its cleansings.

If we hold that sin destroys our relationship and faith, removes fruit and life and can cause us to die spiritually, equally to return from this, we need cleansing that does not go as far as hebrews as recrucifying Christ etc. but still is recovery from going astray.

Many theologians have walked down this road as well.
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ivp-nt/Blood-Water-Witness-Jesus-Christ

 

[PeterJens]

A phrase comes to mind someone shared, the Father would not reject a son even if they had done something wrong.

And though to the extent they took it, losing faith and love for the Father, it is true, Gods love and grace does cover a multitude of sins. So Peter was forgiven before he denied Jesus, and was told when he recovered to encourage the brothers. And David was encouraged after he repented of Bathsheba he could still walk with God.

But the heart is still focused in love and debt to the Lord even though things turn wrong, they are soon restored. It is when the restoration fails, repeated warnings go unheeded, judgement is prophesied to fall, and in the end does fall, are the people finally rejected. Read the history of Israel, and how patient the Lord was with them. The prophets sacrificed, the people blessed and situations turned around, yet time and again there were those who stood against God and ended in judgement.

I myself know such a walk of high aspiration, yet needing continual focus, and cleansing and refocus and continual return to the path and the perspective that is eternal. God bless.

 

[JLB]

Ah, I see this jump. Water is being looked at as being part of Israel here. Except all men are born of water, Israelities are circumcised into Israel on the 8th day. Water certainly does not refer to this circumcision, belonging to Israel, unless you are talking about the symbolic washing by passing through the red sea, which is referred to elsewhere as a type of baptism into Gods people.

I have certainly seen water implied to mean Israel, but when you look at the connection, it is not obviously there.

My point, my motive is to ensure that people don’t think they are born again, because they are baptized in water.

Some denominations teach this.

That would mean we take unbelievers and baptize them in water, and they come up out of the water as born again believers.


Is this what you believe?


I see the Bible teaching that believers are baptized in water, not unbelievers.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But I believe in the virgin birth, we are simply discussing what John might be referring to. And what it brings to my mind is the need to purify ourselves daily through our communion and dwelling in praise and worship of the King.

Amen. We are discussing what John is teaching us by inspiration.

And what it brings to my mind is the need to purify ourselves daily through our communion and dwelling in praise and worship of the King.

Amen, so true, and your writings are full of this motive, which is why I value your work here so much. Amen.


However, I just don’t see the connection between purifying ourselves daily through communion with our King, and what is being taught in John 3:5-6 about being born again.


We are not born again by daily communion with our King, rather we are born again by the Spirit, when we obey the Gospel truth.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23




JLB

 

[JLB]

The argument that this refers to Mary being a virgin, unfortunately after having three children and my darling wife bleeding each time, birth very often involves blood which is not for me therefore an obvious connection.

Sure there will be placenta, and blood, but the reference by John is indicating something more...something unique.

• not only by water, but by water and blood.

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6




JLB

 

[PeterJens]

My point, my motive is to ensure that people don’t think they are born again, because they are baptized in water.

Some denominations teach this.

That would mean we take unbelievers and baptize them in water, and they come up out of the water as born again believers.


Is this what you believe?


I see the Bible teaching that believers are baptized in water, not unbelievers.



JLB

Baptism is a testimony of faith. But exploring around it is helpful.

You raise a good point. What seals us in Christ? Our faith, confession and repentance. All are part but together make a whole.

In our thinking we like lines but God draws sinner here, child of God there. But like a seed becoming a plant, it is a process of life, rather than black and white.

So a believer who is not baptised is an issue, but as a testimony of faith Amen

 

[JLB]

Baptism is a testimony of faith. But exploring around it is helpful.

You raise a good point. What seals us in Christ? Our faith, confession and repentance. All are part but together make a whole.

In our thinking we like lines but God draws sinner here, child of God there. But like a seed becoming a plant, it is a process of life, rather than black and white.

So a believer who is not baptised is an issue, but as a testimony of faith Amen

So do you believe we are born again, then we get baptized in water afterward?

Or do you believe we are born again because we are baptized in water?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I myself know such a walk of high aspiration, yet needing continual focus, and cleansing and refocus and continual return to the path and the perspective that is eternal. God bless.

I have had to learn and am still learning the principles of investing my time and energy into things that cultivate and develop the things of the Spirit; The things the Spirit desires for me to spend my time doing.

Sowing to the Spirit.

Private Devotion
Meditating on the word
Setting my mind on godly things
Fasting
Prayer
Bible discussion and study
Helping others with needs
Sharing my faith
Providing for my family


If I am busy doing these things, then I don’t have time to be in the wrong place, with the wrong people, doing the wrong thing.

(Something I had to learn the hard way, many years ago)




Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Galatians 6:7-9

• he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

JLB

 

[Butch5]

Jesus talks of us being born of the Spirit. This language represents the whole of us that becomes eternal in Christ.

Maybe we think ourselves in the wrong way. Our identity is expressed through our bodies, our brains, our presence. This identity can be given a spiritual life, a life with God.

We want to separate ourselves into parts, rather than saying how the whole expresses itself is focused is our soul expressed in our spirits and our heart.

4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground
Psalm 146:4

the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.
Isaiah 61:3

9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom
Deut 34:9

8 But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.
Job 32:8

22 A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
Prov 17:22

2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:2-3

17 in the spirit and power of Elijah
Luke 1:17

Spirit is used in different ways in scripture. It conveys an emotional force, something that drives someone on, that has attributes connected with it. The Spirit is also the Holy Spirit, that brings anointing, teaching and gifting but is an individual, one of the trinity.

Our spirit then is most likely a way of expressing our dominant expression in life or in a situation. Our spirit is also the breadth of life, the thing that gives us existence.

Our souls are seen as our identity, the total summation of who we are and how we express ourselves. What we are as our expression in reality, can be lifted out of the physical and put in other forms. Our bodies are one expression of our souls. So in revelation the souls could be under the altar. A soul needs an expression, a body to express itself through. The spirit in which the soul expresses itself will vary, depending on how we react to things around us.

Samuels soul was called back from its sleep, by Saul.

35 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
36 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
John 19:35-36

6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 John 5:6-8

I think John felt it was significant that water and blood flowed from Jesus when He was pierced by the spear. This is probably seen as a pointer to the water of baptism for the forgiveness of sins, linking it with Jesus's blood that washes us whiter than snow, also for the forgiveness of sins. The Spirit anoints the believer sealing them as a promise of future resurrection and a new body when we raise in Christ.

Certainly one cannot be filled with the Spirit unless cleansing has taken place through faith and repentance. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the Holy temple, is only possible because of the cross and new birth in the Lord.

I agree with some of what you've said here. I would submit thought that the spirit in man is God's spirit, not man's. You said that it is the breath of life. That is God, not man. You quoted Job 32 which says that the spirit in man is the breath of the Almighty.

8 But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.
Job 32:8

As I pointed out, in Gen 2:7 Moses says that God created man from the dust of the earth. So, we know that man consists of the elements of the earth. God then breathed His breath into man and the man became a living soul. I agree that the soul is the whole person. It consists of the man of dust and the breath of God.

One thing I think that gets missed in these discussions too, is that the Greek and Hebrew words, noe, pneuma, neshamah, and ruach, all mean wind or breath. When we see them translated as spirit it is a figurative usage of the words. It's a figure of speech. None of these words has a its definition a disembodied living being. However, the English word spirit does carry the idea of a disembodied conscious being. People often then read this idea back into these Greek and Hebrew words. The readers of the original languages simply saw words that meant wind, not words that meant a disembodied conscious being. I believe this is one of the big reasons there is so much confusion about the spirit.

 

[Butch5]

God created all things. So the spirit that is in man is God’s spirit that he created and formed in man for man.

Just as man has a body that was created by God and formed and is given to man for man.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1




JLB

I would submit that the spirit in man is actually a part of God.

 

[Butch5]

The New Jerusalem, or the Kingdom of God, will indeed be a real place, a literal Kingdom that will be formed here on earth at the end of time when Jesus returns. The Kingdom certainly does not exist in its fullness now.

Jesus did, however come to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth. In Matthew 4:17 Jesus says
"Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven were used interchangeably in the N.T.

If Jesus meant that repenting and turning to God and thus being born again was metaphorical....then if the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand....meaning ready and almost immediate....then why are we still here waiting for Jesus to come back?

Jesus meant to begin a new way for man to get along...to be in tune with the God that made us, to be together with Him in spirit here on earth....we can do this now and we don't have to wait for the literal Kingdom.

2 Corinthians 6:16
16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

God does not literally walk with us....
He does this in Spirit....
God is spirit and He speaks to our spirit....
We worship in spirit.
John 4:24
24“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.




Man is not a spirit,,,
but man has a spirit.
We are of 3 parts, as you said:
Body, Soul, Spirit

When we come to know God we are born again in spirit...
Jesus said we must be born of water AND spirit.

Some understand the water to be natural birth...
Some undersatand the water to be baptism, whichever you prefer to believe, the fact remains that a second birth is necessary...one of spirit.

Our body becomes dust....
What happens to our soul/spirit?
Do they also die when we die?

Hi Wondering,

Repenting and turning to God are not metaphorical. They have to be done. The phrase, "born again" is a metaphor. Nicodemus took it literally and asked how can a man enter into the womb again. He can't. It's a metaphor for being baptized and resurrected, born of water and the spirit. Jesus likens being baptized and resurrected to being born anew.

Jesus used the term "born again" because Nicodemus thought being the seed of Abraham made him an heir to the promises. The Jews were the children of God before Christ came. God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that Israel was His son, His firstborn.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

Nicodemus thought that this birth made him an heir of the promises. Jesus corrected him and told him he had to be born again. The first birth in Exodus 4:22 was not sufficient to gain him access to the kingdom. This is why Jesus uses the metaphor of being born again. If you look up all of the places in the New Testament that speak of being born again, you'll see that every time, the audience is the Jews. Gentiles are not spoken of in the Scriptures as being "born again".

I agree that man isn't a spirit. I would submit that the spirit that is in man is God's spirit. It is the breath of life.

I may not have been clear. I don't believe that man is three parts. I believe he is one part, made of dust. God then breathed "His" spirit into the man and the man transformed into something else, a living soul. Thus a soul consists of the man of dust and the breath or spirit (same word) of God. So, when the man and that breath of life come together a living soul is formed. Two things become one.

I would also submit that when the man dies, the breath of life or spirit of God returns to Him. Since the breath of life is gone the soul no longer exists as one of it's components has gone. The body then returns to the dust.

 

[JLB]

I would submit that the spirit in man is actually a part of God.

What about man’s soul and body?

Is that a part of God?


JLB

 

[Butch5]

What about man’s soul and body?

Is that a part of God?


JLB

According to Gen 2:7 the body is of the dust. The soul consists of the body and the breath of God

 

[JLB]

According to Gen 2:7 the body is of the dust. The soul consists of the body and the breath of God

Yes, we know the body is of the dust.


Again, the question is:

Is the soul and body a part of God or a part of man.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7


Man:

spirit - God
soul - ?
body - ?

Who does the rest of man belong to?


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Yes, we know the body is of the dust.


Again, the question is:

Is the soul and body a part of God or a part of man.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7


Man:

spirit - God
soul - ?
body - ?

Who does the rest of man belong to?


JLB

The body is the man, the spirit is God's and the soul is the body with God's spirit or breath in it. The soul is the whole of man. Without God's breath or spirit the man is just an inanimate body. When God' breath ir spirit is breathed into the man he becomes a living soul.