Not Forgiven, but BORN AGAIN

[JLB]

The body is the man, the spirit is God's and the soul is the body with God's spirit or breath in it. The soul is the whole of man. Without God's breath or spirit the man is just an inanimate body. When God' breath ir spirit is breathed into the man he becomes a living soul.

At least that is how Adam became a living soul from the dust of the ground.


Now the Lord would say...


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

• and forms the spirit of man within him:

Notice it says the spirit of man, and not the Spirit of God, within him.

Let’s examine the word “forms”, in this verse.

Strongs H3335 - yatsar

1. to form, fashion, frame
   1. (Qal) to form, fashion
      1. of human activity
      2. of divine activity
         1. of creation
            1. of original creation
            2. of individuals at conception
            3. of Israel as a people
         2. to frame, pre-ordain, plan (fig. of divine) purpose of a situation)
   2. (Niphal) to be formed, be created
   3. (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained
   4. (Hophal) to be formed

Do you believe God’s Spirit is created?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

At least that is how Adam became a living soul from the dust of the ground.


Now the Lord would say...


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

• and forms the spirit of man within him:

Notice it says the spirit of man, and not the Spirit of God, within him.

Let’s examine the word “forms”, in this verse.

Strongs H3335 - yatsar

1. to form, fashion, frame
   1. (Qal) to form, fashion
      1. of human activity
      2. of divine activity
         1. of creation
            1. of original creation
            2. of individuals at conception
            3. of Israel as a people
         2. to frame, pre-ordain, plan (fig. of divine) purpose of a situation)
   2. (Niphal) to be formed, be created
   3. (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained
   4. (Hophal) to be formed

Do you believe God’s Spirit is created?



JLB

It speaks of putting the breath or spirit in man. To form something also means to shape or mould.

I'm at work and don't have time to look at the languages.

 

[JLB]

It speaks of putting the breath or spirit in man. To form something also means to shape or mould.

I'm at work and don't have time to look at the languages.

The word form indicates to “create”.

God of course created the spirit of man, as He also created angels, who are spirits as well.


The spirit of man was created by God, and is man’s spirit, being a part of man.




JLB

 

[Butch5]

The word form indicates to “create”.

God of course created the spirit of man, as He also created angels, who are spirits as well.


The spirit of man was created by God, and is man’s spirit, being a part of man.




JLB

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

Yes, God forms the breath in man. We see that in Gen 2:7.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

 

[JLB]

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

Yes, God forms the breath in man. We see that in Gen 2:7.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Does the Lord create all men that way, from the dust of the ground, and breath His Spirit into him?


You trying to apply Genesis 2:7 to all of mankind.

There are other scriptures in the Bible that pertain to mankind and how we are procreated by natural birth.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died. Genesis 5:1-8


Please be reasonable, and look at other scriptures than pertain to the rest of mankind, and not just Adam.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

• and forms the spirit of man within him:

Notice it says the spirit of man, and not the Spirit of God, within him.

Let’s examine the word “forms”, in this verse.

Strongs H3335 - yatsar

1. to form, fashion, frame
   1. (Qal) to form, fashion
      1. of human activity
      2. of divine activity
         1. of creation
            1. of original creation
            2. of individuals at conception
            3. of Israel as a people
         2. to frame, pre-ordain, plan (fig. of divine) purpose of a situation)
   2. (Niphal) to be formed, be created
   3. (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained
   4. (Hophal) to be formed

There is God’s Spirit, then there is the spirit of man that is created by God.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


There is another option, whereby both perspectives come to fruition in the born again person.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

In the born again person, our spirit is “procreated”, whereby our spirit is our own yet also is from God, as in natural birth.


We are the child of our parents, an individual apart from them, yet are a part of them, through birth.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Does the Lord create all men that way, from the dust of the ground, and breath His Spirit into him?


You trying to apply Genesis 2:7 to all of mankind.

There are other scriptures in the Bible that pertain to mankind and how we are procreated by natural birth.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
Seth lived one hundred and five years, and begot Enosh. After he begot Enosh, Seth lived eight hundred and seven years, and had sons and daughters. So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died. Genesis 5:1-8


Please be reasonable, and look at other scriptures than pertain to the rest of mankind, and not just Adam.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

• and forms the spirit of man within him:

Notice it says the spirit of man, and not the Spirit of God, within him.

Let’s examine the word “forms”, in this verse.

Strongs H3335 - yatsar

1. to form, fashion, frame
   1. (Qal) to form, fashion
      1. of human activity
      2. of divine activity
         1. of creation
            1. of original creation
            2. of individuals at conception
            3. of Israel as a people
         2. to frame, pre-ordain, plan (fig. of divine) purpose of a situation)
   2. (Niphal) to be formed, be created
   3. (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained
   4. (Hophal) to be formed

There is God’s Spirit, then there is the spirit of man that is created by God.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


There is another option, whereby both perspectives come to fruition in the born again person.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

In the born again person, our spirit is “procreated”, whereby our spirit is our own yet also is from God, as in natural birth.


We are the child of our parents, an individual apart from them, yet are a part of them, through birth.



JLB

Obviously, not everyone is created the way Adam was. However, it does tell us what man consists of. I've looked at a boatload of passages on this subject. What you're saying doesn't fit with quite a few passages of Scripture.

Firstly, I pointed out in another post that the Greek and Hebrew words, noe, pneuma, neshamah, and ruach, all mean wind or breath. When they are translated as spirit, it is a figure of speech as the translation "spirit" is figurative. What presents a problem is that the English word spirit carries the idea of a disembodied conscious being. The Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. What happens is that many Christians read the English definition into these Greek and Hebrew words. Given that let's look at the passage.

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. (Zech. 12:1 KJV)

So, the passage says that God forms the wind or breath of man within him. Notice first the word "of" The Greek is in the genitive case. That indicates possession. So man is in possession of a wind or breath. Where do we see man getting a breath? Gen 2:7. So man is in possession of a breath.

In Ezekiel 37 God gives Ezekiel a vision of the resurrection of Israel and He says this to them.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.(Ezek. 37:13-14 KJV)

Notice that God said He would put "His" breath in them and they would live. It's God's breath. We know that God's breath is in man. My question to you is, where do you see another breath, other than God's, in man?

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

The Breath Himself bears witness with our breath. What is our breath? It is the breath of life that God gives us. Job tells us that God's breath gives understanding.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

There is a breath in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. Again, it's the same thing. The breath of life that made the man a living soul, gives life and understanding.

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

If God were to gather His ruach and His neshamah, all flesh would die and man would return to the dust.

My point is that I see nothing in the Scriptures that indicates that there is any other breath in man than that which God put in man, the breath of life.

 

[JLB]

So, the passage says that God forms the wind or breath of man within him.

No. It says the Lord forms the spirit of man in Him.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



JLB

 

[JLB]

The Breath Himself bears witness with our breath. What is our breath? It is the breath of life that God gives us. Job tells us that God's breath gives understanding.

It seems you have made up your own theology where man’s spirit is not really his spirit but his breath, and God’s Spirit is God’s breath.


Sorry bro, I disagree with you.

Man is a spirit, as he is created in the image of God.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24


It seems you just make up whatever definition you want about man’s spirit and God’s Spirit.


I have shown you where there is a separation of God’s Spirit and our spirit.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


There is a clear distinction between The Spirit of God, and our spirit.


If you don’t want to believe or accept what the scriptures so plainly say, then that’s your choice.


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

• let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,

Does God’s Spirit need to be cleansed of all filthiness of spirit?



JLB

 

[Butch5]

It seems you have made up your own theology where man’s spirit is not really his spirit but his breath, and God’s Spirit is God’s breath.


Sorry bro, I disagree with you.

Man is a spirit, as he is created in the image of God.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24


It seems you just make up whatever definition you want about man’s spirit and God’s Spirit.


I have shown you where there is a separation of God’s Spirit and our spirit.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16


There is a clear distinction between The Spirit of God, and our spirit.


If you don’t want to believe or accept what the scriptures so plainly say, then that’s your choice.


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

• let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,

Does God’s Spirit need to be cleansed of all filthiness of spirit?



JLB

I've not made up anything. The Greek and Hebrew words mean wind or breath. The English word spirit didn't appear in the original manuscripts. They saw, noe, pneuma, neshamah, and ruach. They all mean wind. When 2 Cor 7:1 The saw, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness o the flesh and the wind.

As I said, when those words are translated as spirit, it is a figure of speech. So, the question is, what does the figure mean.

You've shown a difference between God's breath and our breath. Where does our breath come from?

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Job said if God gathered His ruach and His Neshemah all flesh would die and man would return to the dust. How is that if man is a spirit?

You didn't answer my question though. Where in Scripture do you find that man has a breath other than that which came from God.

 

[Butch5]

No. It says the Lord forms the spirit of man in Him.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



JLB

The word is ruach, it means wind or breath. It's translated spirit because the translators are using it figuratively. The question is, what is the figure? Why did they use the English word spirit?

However, as I pointed out, it says, "of man". "Of man" means possession or ownership. It doesn't mean person. Spirit of man doesn't mean man is a spirit. It means the spirit that is possessed or owned by the man.

 

[JLB]

The word is ruach, it means wind or breath. It's translated spirit because the translators are using it figuratively.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with me.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Of man" means possession or ownership.

Yes, the spirit of man is man’s possession, to either defile or be sanctified and cleanse.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It doesn't mean person.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23


The complete man is spirit, soul and body.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I agree with some of what you've said here. I would submit thought that the spirit in man is God's spirit, not man's. You said that it is the breath of life. That is God, not man. You quoted Job 32 which says that the spirit in man is the breath of the Almighty.

8 But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.
Job 32:8

As I pointed out, in Gen 2:7 Moses says that God created man from the dust of the earth. So, we know that man consists of the elements of the earth. God then breathed His breath into man and the man became a living soul. I agree that the soul is the whole person. It consists of the man of dust and the breath of God.

One thing I think that gets missed in these discussions too, is that the Greek and Hebrew words, noe, pneuma, neshamah, and ruach, all mean wind or breath. When we see them translated as spirit it is a figurative usage of the words. It's a figure of speech. None of these words has a its definition a disembodied living being. However, the English word spirit does carry the idea of a disembodied conscious being. People often then read this idea back into these Greek and Hebrew words. The readers of the original languages simply saw words that meant wind, not words that meant a disembodied conscious being. I believe this is one of the big reasons there is so much confusion about the spirit.

You can end up thinking the words mean we are just a vessels holding God's gift of life. In a sense this maybe true, but it does not help explain God's will and our free will response to it.
God has chosen clearly to save and exalt us as friends. How we embrace and understand this matters to God and therefore to us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

Repenting and turning to God are not metaphorical. They have to be done. The phrase, "born again" is a metaphor. Nicodemus took it literally and asked how can a man enter into the womb again. He can't. It's a metaphor for being baptized and resurrected, born of water and the spirit. Jesus likens being baptized and resurrected to being born anew.

Jesus used the term "born again" because Nicodemus thought being the seed of Abraham made him an heir to the promises. The Jews were the children of God before Christ came. God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that Israel was His son, His firstborn.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

Nicodemus thought that this birth made him an heir of the promises. Jesus corrected him and told him he had to be born again. The first birth in Exodus 4:22 was not sufficient to gain him access to the kingdom. This is why Jesus uses the metaphor of being born again. If you look up all of the places in the New Testament that speak of being born again, you'll see that every time, the audience is the Jews. Gentiles are not spoken of in the Scriptures as being "born again".

I agree that man isn't a spirit. I would submit that the spirit that is in man is God's spirit. It is the breath of life.

I may not have been clear. I don't believe that man is three parts. I believe he is one part, made of dust. God then breathed "His" spirit into the man and the man transformed into something else, a living soul. Thus a soul consists of the man of dust and the breath or spirit (same word) of God. So, when the man and that breath of life come together a living soul is formed. Two things become one.

I would also submit that when the man dies, the breath of life or spirit of God returns to Him. Since the breath of life is gone the soul no longer exists as one of it's components has gone. The body then returns to the dust.

Hi B....
I just realized that we've been through this already.

I had said that we're made up of:
The Body
The Soul
The Spirit

The spirit is our God part that connects us to God.
Our body belongs to man
Our soul belongs to man

When we die our body goes in the ground and will not become glorified till the Resurrection.

Our Soul, being WHO we are....stays alive.
Our Spirit, being the part of God...stays alive.

If our soul died, we would lose our identity.

I wonder what JLB thinks about the above as regards the questions he asked about what belong to God and what belongs to man.

I do, however, want to bring attention to Romans 12:1
PRESENT YOURSELVES A LIVING SACRIFICE.

God expect us to give our whole self to His service...
Body, Soul, Spirit.

Cannot r ead the whole thread...and will not "debate" this with you again -- it's of no use and not related to salvation (the only topic I WILL "debate"). Discuss?

 

[Butch5]

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23


The complete man is spirit, soul and body.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

According to Genesis a complete man is a soul consisting of the body and the breath of God.

But again, notice the passage says "your". Your denotes possession or ownership, not person. The word You denotes person.

When, he says your body, soul, and spirit, he is speaking of the body, soul, and spirit, that belong to you. It's not saying you are a spirit.

Here's a definition for your

1. 1.
   belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
   "what is your name?"
   
   
2. 2.
   belonging to or associated with any person in general.
   "the sight is enough to break your heart"
   

Here is a definition for you

1. 1.
   used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
   "are you listening?"
   • used to refer to the person being addressed together with other people regarded in the same class.
     "you Australians"
   • used in exclamations to address one or more people.
     "you fools"
2. 2.
   used to refer to any person in general.
   "after a while, you get used to it"

You refers to person hood, your refers to possession.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for sharing your opinion with me.



JLB

You're welcome!

 

[Butch5]

Hi B....
I just realized that we've been through this already.

I had said that we're made up of:
The Body
The Soul
The Spirit

The spirit is our God part that connects us to God.
Our body belongs to man
Our soul belongs to man

When we die our body goes in the ground and will not become glorified till the Resurrection.

Our Soul, being WHO we are....stays alive.
Our Spirit, being the part of God...stays alive.

If our soul died, we would lose our identity.

I wonder what JLB thinks about the above as regards the questions he asked about what belong to God and what belongs to man.

I do, however, want to bring attention to Romans 12:1
PRESENT YOURSELVES A LIVING SACRIFICE.

God expect us to give our whole self to His service...
Body, Soul, Spirit.

Cannot r ead the whole thread...and will not "debate" this with you again -- it's of no use and not related to salvation (the only topic I WILL "debate"). Discuss?

Yes, we have discussed this before. You said the soul doesn't die. The Greek and Hebrew words that are translated soul are often translated life. The Scriptures often refer to someone's soul as their life. Does a person die? If so then their soul or life ends and doesn't go on after death.

The Scriptures also tell us that the soul is in the blood. I would ask, is "who we are" in our blood?

1 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word translated "life" in this passage is the word Nephesh or soul.

 

[Butch5]

You can end up thinking the words mean we are just a vessels holding God's gift of life. In a sense this maybe true, but it does not help explain God's will and our free will response to it.
God has chosen clearly to save and exalt us as friends. How we embrace and understand this matters to God and therefore to us.

I don't think that at all. We are all different. We have different experiences, traits, habits, etc. All of these define who and what we are. We have physical differences that define who are are also. So, I wouldn't say were are just vessels for the breath of life.

 

[JLB]

According to Genesis a complete man is a soul consisting of the body and the breath of God.

But again, notice the passage says "your". Your denotes possession or ownership, not person. The word You denotes person.

When, he says your body, soul, and spirit, he is speaking of the body, soul, and spirit, that belong to you. It's not saying you are a spirit.

Here's a definition for your

1. 1.
   belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
   "what is your name?"
   
   
2. 2.
   belonging to or associated with any person in general.
   "the sight is enough to break your heart"

Here is a definition for you

1. 1.
   used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
   "are you listening?"
   • used to refer to the person being addressed together with other people regarded in the same class.
     "you Australians"
   • used in exclamations to address one or more people.
     "you fools"
2. 2.
   used to refer to any person in general.
   "after a while, you get used to it"

You refers to person hood, your refers to possession.

Brother,

I stated from the scriptures that man has a spirit that God created.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

• and forms the spirit of man within him:

again


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16


This shows us, man has a spirit that is independent or separate from God’s Spirit.


Im not going to keep repeating the same things over and over.


If you want to believe, that man is born with God’s Spirit, and has God’s Spirit within him, from birth then that is your choice.


God bless you.



JLB