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Not Forgiven, but BORN AGAIN

When, he says your body, soul, and spirit, he is speaking of the body, soul, and spirit, that belong to you. It's not saying you are a spirit.


So if you possess a body, a soul, and a spirit, then what are you;

A body
A soul
A spirit


Which one of these are we.


But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:8-9


Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?



JLB
 
For purposes of clarification I'll explain what I believe a man is using the analogy of a computer. One can build a computer with a fast processor or a slow processor. One can put in a lot of memory or a little memory. One can put in a high speed graphics card for gaming or a slower graphics card for spreadsheets. One can put a windows, Apple, or Linux operating system in it. There are all kinds of different components that one can put into a computer making it different from the next computer. This is how I see man. Some people are smarter than others, some can run faster, some are more caring, some are more logical, etc.

However, all of these computers, with their vast differences, can do absolutely nothing if one doesn't supply electricity to them. I see the breath of life as the electricity. All of the computers get the same electricity. This electricity is "not" part of the computer, It is something coming from an external source. While the computers (bodies) have electricity, (breath of life) they are alive (soul) and able to do amazing things. However, when one takes away the electricity (breath of life) the computer dies (soul) and the components will eventually decay and return to dust.

The point is that they all have the same electricity. The electricity in one computer isn't any different than the next. The electricity is what animates the computer and without it the computer is just and inanimate object. That electricity doesn't determine the personality of the computer, it simply animates it. The personality of the computer is determined by the processor, memory, graphics card, buffer, etc. Likewise, the breath of life doesn't determine our personality, it gives us life. Our personalities are determined by our physical traits, experiences, our feelings, etc.

I hope this helps.
 
Brother,

I stated from the scriptures that man has a spirit that God created.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

  • and forms the spirit of man within him:


again


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16


This shows us, man has a spirit that is independent or separate from God’s Spirit.


Im not going to keep repeating the same things over and over.


If you want to believe, that man is born with God’s Spirit, and has God’s Spirit within him, from birth then that is your choice.


God bless you.



JLB
But you haven't. You've shown the way you interpret the passage. The passage can be understood differently. I don't agree with the way you've interpreted it because I don't see anything in Scripture that shows God putting any breath into man other than His breath.
 
So if you possess a body, a soul, and a spirit, then what are you;

A body
A soul
A spirit


Which one of these are we.


But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:8-9


Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?



JLB
We are a soul. However, the word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It's used concretely of a living being. This is what we see in Gen 2:7. It's also used in an abstract sense and is translated life. For instance,

1 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word life in this passage is nephesh, soul. So, the passage could be translated as body, life, and breath.

I'm not sure where you're going with the Father of breaths.
 
I don't think that at all. We are all different. We have different experiences, traits, habits, etc. All of these define who and what we are. We have physical differences that define who are are also. So, I wouldn't say were are just vessels for the breath of life.

Thanks for this. What I was trying to get at, is terms like soul and spirit refer to aspects of our existence that reflect our personalities and presence not just our physicality.
They are biblical terms, so therefore relevant to God. We are commanded to love him with our heart, soul, strength, mind, all of which have a physical element, but we do not know beyond that, but can speculate.

If Samuel can arise from the dead to speak to Saul, then this is not just a physical presence. If souls in revelations speak of when revenge will be taken for their deaths, again this is specifically not just physical bodies.

That is as far as I go. I know I have physical desires, and do not know if my spiritual desires transcend my physical reality or are a reflection of something else? But like a child does not have to know how they are alive and how it works, they know they are and are hungry etc. So in Christ we have a desire to know Him more and to learn from Him, and He will raise us up on the last day. Why do I need to know more than this or define excluding or including various interpretations?

I do exclude gnostic ideas about a pure holy spirit that is our identity with an evil flesh that wars against it, and we have no responsibility over our behaviour because that is just and flesh that will be destroyed. Unfortunately to an addict, where a chemical drive leads to a behaviour, it is a biological cycle just to feel remotely normal. I have met people to feel this demonstrates the gospel, hope to addicts of sin, by the promise of destroying the evil flesh to deliver their pure perfect spirit.

If we are going to be honest how we handle our bodies and desires is part of God heart and the path to life.
 
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We are a soul. However, the word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It's used concretely of a living being. This is what we see in Gen 2:7. It's also used in an abstract sense and is translated life. For instance,

1 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word life in this passage is nephesh, soul. So, the passage could be translated as body, life, and breath.

I'm not sure where you're going with the Father of breaths.

Why do you always seem to change the words of scripture to suit your own interpretation.

That’s certainly not “rightly dividing” scripture

God is the Father of spirits.

We are spirits.

Angels are spirits.

God is Spirit


But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:8-9


Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

We are spirits, not breaths.


JLB
 
Yes, we have discussed this before. You said the soul doesn't die. The Greek and Hebrew words that are translated soul are often translated life. The Scriptures often refer to someone's soul as their life. Does a person die? If so then their soul or life ends and doesn't go on after death.

The Scriptures also tell us that the soul is in the blood. I would ask, is "who we are" in our blood?

1 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

The word translated "life" in this passage is the word Nephesh or soul.
Oh goodness B5...
You want to go to Leviticus to discuss the soul?
Don't you think we've made some progress in knowledge since 4,000 yeas ago? (maybe 3,000).

So what exactly dies at our death?
Our body for sure.

Do we have to wait for the resurrection?
Or do we go to be in our rightful place immediately after death?
 
I see the breath of life as the electricity.


Ok. That’s fair.


Can you provide scripture that says His breath of life is in all humans?

Adam was created as God’s son; being directly created by Him, and is therefore unique.

Not so with the rest of us, we have to be born again, after we are born from our mother’s womb, in order to be considered as God’s son.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



JLB
 
Oh goodness B5...
You want to go to Leviticus to discuss the soul?
Don't you think we've made some progress in knowledge since 4,000 yeas ago? (maybe 3,000).

So what exactly dies at our death?
Our body for sure.

Do we have to wait for the resurrection?
Or do we go to be in our rightful place immediately after death?

Yeah, I take the Bible as a whole. The Bible's depiction of man doesn't change over time. I already explained what dies. When the God's breath leaves the man, the soul no longer exists as one of it's components are gone. The body returns to dust. Water consists of two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule. If you remover either of the two you no longer have water. Likewise, the soul consists of the breath of God and the body. If you remove either you no longer have a soul.

One reason there is so much confusion about this subject is because people have been taught all of these different ideas that are not in the Scriptures. People will hold tenaciously to these idea in spite of what the Scriptures say. Gen. 2:7 is abundantly clear about the creation of man and what he consists of. However, many people just don't want to believe it. In case there is any confusion God made it abundantly clear in Gen 3.

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return." (Gen. 3:19 NKJ)

"For dust you are". Notice what God said. God told Adam he is dust. He didn't say, you are dust and a spirit or you are dust and a soul. He said, "for you are dust". Notice too where he goes. "And to dust you shall return". He didn't say, and to dust your body shall return, He said, "and to dust you shall return."

Notice God uses the pronoun "you". The word you denotes person hood. You, denotes the essence of a being. It's not a part of someone but their very being. Adam's very being was dust, just like ours is. So, to answer your question, yes, we return to dust to await the resurrection.

As I've stated, the words that are translated soul are often translated life. What dies when a person dies? Their life. Their life ends. Their soul ends. We know that Jesus gave His life for sin to save the world.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- (Col. 1:21-22 NKJ)

We can see that it was through His body, through death that man is reconciled to God. Let's look at what Isaiah had to say.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.1
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.1
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (Isa. 53:8-11 KJV)

Jesus gave His soul as an offering for sin. We know that it was His life that He gave for sin. He died physically on the cross. That was the offering for sin. His soul died. His life ended. A soul is a living being. soul is often translated life. Leviticus says, 'the soul is in the blood. We know when the blood is gone so is the life. It's pretty clear from Scripture that a soul is not something mysterious that lives on after a person dies. It's their very life.
 
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Yeah, I take the Bible as a whole. The Bible's depiction of man doesn't change over time. I already explained what dies. When the God's breath leaves the man, the soul no longer exists as one of it's components are gone. The body returns to dust.


When does God’s breath enter us?

At birth or when we are born again?




JLB
 
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1 Tim. 6:13 NKJ)
Ok. That’s fair.


Can you provide scripture that says His breath of life is in all humans?

Adam was created as God’s son; being directly created by Him, and is therefore unique.

Not so with the rest of us, we have to be born again, after we are born from our mother’s womb, in order to be considered as God’s son.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1



JLB
Sure, The breath of life is in all living flesh.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. (Gen. 6:17 KJV)

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. (Gen. 7:15 KJV)

In Job we find,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
(Job 34:14-15 KJV)

In this passage we see both Hebrew words for breath. Neshamah and ruach. Notice too, he says "all flesh". Even though the context is man, he says all flesh would die indicating that God's breath is in all living flesh. This goes along with what Paul said,

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1 Tim. 6:13 NKJ)

The word translated "gives life" literally means to preserve alive. It's in the present tense. It literally means God is preserving alive all things. Everything that is alive is living because God is keeping it alive. As we saw is Job, if God retrieves His breath all flesh would die.
 
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life,


Yes, breath is the intended rendering as the context so clearly dictates.


Each living thing, both animal and man, have breath in them in order to live a natural life.


This is not a reference to God’s Spirit.




JLB
 
I can't say the exact moment but I would submit that it is at conception.


So why the need to be born again, if we are born with the Spirit in us at birth?




JLB
 
Why do you always seem to change the words of scripture to suit your own interpretation.

That’s certainly not “rightly dividing” scripture

God is the Father of spirits.

We are spirits.

Angels are spirits.

God is Spirit


But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:8-9


Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

We are spirits, not breaths.


JLB

Again, the words mean wind or breath. Spirit is only a figurative use of the words. it's a figure of speech. Angels and demons are called spirits. Do you believe that men and angels are the same
If the word spirit is a figure of speech and angels are called spirits what is the figure? Jesus explained it pretty well.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

In this passage both wind and Spirit are the Greek word pneuma. They're the same word. The wind blows where it will and you hear it but can't tell from where it's coming or where it's going. Now, compare that to angels and demons. We can't see them, they come and they go without our knowing. However, as with the wind we can see the effects of them. They are able to affect the physical world. They can move objects and the like. In this respect they are very much like the wind, thus the analogy and why the words for wind would be figuratively translated as spirit. What we have to remember is that the original readers didn't have the English word spirit. They saw the word wind in the text and would have to figure out if it was meant literally or figuratively. In our case the translators have taken it upon themselves to do that for us. And, I believe, wrongly is some cases.
 
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Yes, breath is the intended rendering as the context so clearly dictates.


Each living thing, both animal and man, have breath in them in order to live a natural life.


This is not a reference to God’s Spirit.




JLB
Sure it is. It's the same breath that was put into Adam. It's the breath of life that is in all living flesh.
 
So why the need to be born again, if we are born with the Spirit in us at birth?




JLB
"Born Again? was a term Jesus used for the Jews. Nicodemus was a Jew. If you look at all of the occurrences of the phrase "born again" you'll see that the audience or subject in each case is the Jews. The Gentiles are said to be born of God, but not born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.1 (Jn. 3:3 KJV)

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.1 (Jn. 3:7 KJV)

Nicodemus was a Jew.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Pet. 1:23 KJV)

Peter was writing to the Jews dispersed among the nations.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 YLT)

The dispersion or the diaspora in Greek, was a term used of the Jews who had been dispersed among the nations.
 
Sure it is. It's the same breath that was put into Adam. It's the breath of life that is in all living flesh.
Outcomes are significant. If it is in the hands of the Lord and our view does not change our walk, each view is fine.
Those who use their view to deny cleansing and a straight walk have serious issues.
 
Born Again? was a term Jesus used for the Jews. Nicodemus was a Jew. If you look at all of the occurrences of the phrase "born again" you'll see that the audience or subject in each case is the Jews. The Gentiles are said to be born of God, but not born again.


Is someone “born of God” at birth?



JLB
 
Sure it is. It's the same breath that was put into Adam. It's the breath of life that is in all living flesh.

So again, I ask...

If a person is born with the Spirit of God in them at birth, then why do they need to be born again.


Adam was called a son of God, having the Spirit in Him when he was created by God.


the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38


Everyone else are called sons of men (Adam).



JLB
 
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