Numbers 31 = kill kids for revenge

[Poster]

Paidion,

Thanks for your post.

Do you believe that Jesus is a second 'God'? If I pray to God, I didn't pray to Jesus?
Why not just pray to God?

Thanks for your post.

MarkT,

When you ask if I heard a voice, I take it you don't believe the LORD spoke to Moses?

I don't feel the problem goes away even if God spoke to Moses, directly for several reasons.

1. All voices are made by God.

Either killing babies for revenge for something someone else did is good or it is not.

The LORD said, 'Avenge the people of Israel' It's not a matter of revenge. It's a matter of vengence - the LORD's vengence - God being a jealous God.

I don't distinguish between the two. The only reason I write 'revenge' is that it's easier to spell.

I don't think you really get it.
The Mid'ianite women invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.

Indeed, I don't get it.


If Hank captured killed a baby for vengeance because it's dead mother blew up fifty people a month ago, would Hank be acting justly and mercifully?

If, ''No.'

Then,
Me:
Then how is it just for the Midianite babies to be killed, specifically for vengeance, on something they neither did, nor had any control over?

Of course today we are under the new covenant, and we don't judge, and we wouldn't kill the women who have caused men to turn away from God. And we wouldn't kill their offspring.

Why not? If you think it was correct behavior to kill a baby for vengeance 3,000 years ago, why not continue that same calculation today?

Spiffy wrote:

These people, including male children, were destroyed due to their wickedness. These people had countless opportunities to repent, they just did not care. Their male boys would have lived a life of sin, held in bondage of what they learned from their parents and due to the nature of their age

What wickedness is an infant guilty of? Drinking too much milk?

Spiffy wrote:
MarkT,

Thanks for your response. In my post, I was only touching on Numbers 31, as the author of the original thread wanted to know why God would allow male children to be murdered. The Israelites, concerning Numbers 25, are blatantly guilty as they knew the truth yet chose to sacrifice to other gods - they were even more guilty than the Midianites. I am not denying God is a jealous God, I know He is, however, I still believe God is a merciful God and when reading Exodus through Numbers you can see His mercy shown towards the Israelites.

I don't have a problem with God killing children. I only have a problem with humans doing the deed. We were commanded, 'Do not kill.' Even before that it was wrong to kill, see the case of Cain.




So, after killing all the adult males, all the adult females,
1. Why kill the baby boys? They didn't do anything. The text clearly limits the guilty to 'females' and I happen to know from biology class that 'females' excludes baby boys. There's an easy way to check to see if it's a boy or a girl.
2. Why spare the virgin girls *only if wanted*? What kind of justice system is that?

Due to lack of soldier want, she therefore deserves death for a crime she did not commit?
But if five minutes later, a soldier notices her and 'wants' her, she retroactively is innocent and deserves to live?
Little girl, brush your hair, you will live if one of us 'wants' you. Otherwise, you will be killed to get back at your dead mother.



Thanks to all for the important posts.

 

[nadab]

Many look at the Bible only on the surface, never coming to grasp true justice as established by God. No one would have himself judged by mere outward appearances. Because the Bible is often looked at with only a cursory approach, these then pass condemnatory judgment on the Bible. To become a skilled physician requires years of study and application. More so for a surgeon. These grasp concepts of the body that many of us, in our present mind, cannot, unless these or someone takes time and effort to explain in terms we understand.

Likewise with the Bible. First, one must recognize that God has moral boundaries, laws and the true religious worship that his creation, man, must adhere to. The universe is built upon "statutes" or laws established by God that allows life to exist forever.(Job 38:33) Of the nation of Israel, who were God's people until the arrival of Jesus Christ, these were given a set of over 600 laws,(Ex 34:27,28) following their exodus from Egypt in 1513 B.C.E.

These laws were summed up in the "Ten Words", commonly called the Ten Commandments.(Deut 4:13) These laws set the nation apart from the surrounding nations. Violations of these laws brought punishment, such as giving worship to the "gods of the nations",(Deut 11:16) and thus committing idolatry. We, as humans, are designed with a conscience, to give guidance of right and wrong.(Rom 2:14,15) However, many nations in the past (and present) had a "conscience" that were either calloused or non-existent. These committed atrocities that were allowed or committed by the ruling factions.

At Numbers 22, the Moabites saw how the Israelites had annihilated Amorite kings Sihon and Og, and were fearful.(Num 22:3,4) Following a failure of Balaam to curse them, in order to destroy them at King Balak's orders, the Moabites used cunning to entice many of the Israelites men into idolatry through immorality, attaching themselves to "Baal of Peor" (Num 25:18), a Canaanite god, and began having "immoral relations with the daughters of Moab",(Num 25:1) and with Midianite women, causing some 24,000 to fall.(Num 25:9)

The Canaanites, of which Moab and Midian were part, were immoral in their worship, worshiping the fertility or sex goddess Ashtoreth. The most prominent part of her worship consisted of sex orgies in the temples or high places devoted to Baal worship, where male and female prostitutes served. Figurines of the goddess Ashtoreth have been discovered in Palestine that are of a nude woman with rudely exaggerated sex organs. Of their phallic worship, archaeologist W. F. Albright observes that: “At its worst, . . . the erotic aspect of their cult must have sunk to extremely sordid depths of social degradation.â€Ââ€â€Archaeology and the Religion of Israel, 1968, pp. 76, 77. Thus, these people were pagan sex worshipers who engaged in licentious rites as part of their worship of Baal, including ceremonial prostitution.

These also practiced degraded child sacrifice. Halley’s Bible Handbook (1964, p. 161) says: “Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.â€Â

Canaan was a land of idolatry, bloodshed, and degraded sexual practices. (Exodus 23:24; 34:12, 13; Numbers 33:52) The inhabitants of the land even killed their children in sacrificial fires. Could a holy God expose his people to such wickedness? No! He declared: “The land is unclean, and I shall bring punishment for its error upon it, and the land will vomit its inhabitants out.†(Leviticus 18:21-25) God did not kill the people indiscriminately, however. Rightly disposed Canaanites, such as Rahab and the Gibeonites, were spared.(Joshua 6:25; 9:3-27)

Some 700 years later, Hosea 9:10 said that "they (the Israelites) themselves went in to Ba´al of Pe´or, and they proceeded to dedicate themselves to the shameful thing, and they came to be disgusting like [the thing of] their love."("abominations", King James Bible)

At Numbers 31:16,17, Moses being indignant at the "appointed men in the combat forces" for their preserving alive every female, then told them: "Look ! They are the ones who, by Balaam's word, served to induce the sons of Israel to unfaithfulness toward Jehovah over the affair of Peor." Hence, he now said: "And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male."(Num 31:17,18)

Why the male children ? Because God knew that the male children, if allowed to grow up would, in turn, take the lead and continue to propagate these same false and wicked religious ideologies, even murdering their own children in a sacrifice. By association, even the Israelites eventually were infected and succumbed to this wicked thinking, burning "their sons and daughters in the fire".(Jer 7:31) Hence God, in his justice, would not allow even the male children of the Midianites to remain, so as to "make (the Israelites) unclean by any of these things".(Lev 18:24)

 

[MarkT]

Indeed, I don't get it.


If Hank captured killed a baby for vengeance because it's dead mother blew up fifty people a month ago, would Hank be acting justly and mercifully?

If, ''No.'

Then,
Me:
Then how is it just for the Midianite babies to be killed, specifically for vengeance, on something they neither did, nor had any control over?

You've mangled the question so that it is barely recognizable. But I think you know intuitively that this question applies to you. Otherwise you wouldn't be here trying to lead the people astray.

Killing isn't good. In the past, the people killed the ones who promoted sin. But then they themselves had to be purified from their sin - forgiven by making sacrifices. You ask me if it was correct in the past, then why don't we do it today? First, we are angry. Yes. But the question is, why don't we destroy the liars and the ones who promote sin today? It's because God said, 'Vengence is mine. I will repay.'

Your interest in the children makes sense because they were your children Poster, and close to your heart.

Now you want to insinuate yourself into the body of Christ - hoping that your children will escape the punishment and inherit the kingdom. You want to turn us against God and suggest that we should kill or turn away like you do. Ha Ha Ha

A warning - just because we don't destroy the promoters and the scholars and the feminists and the sons of the evil one, doesn't mean the wrath of God isn't upon them or that they will escape judgment and the severity of God.

 

[Poster]

Why the male children ? Because God knew that the male children, if allowed to grow up would, in turn, take the lead and continue to propagate these same false and wicked religious ideologies, even murdering their own children in a sacrifice.

We need to kill young children 'for vengeance' because they might grow up and kill young children?
1. That is not the reason given by Numbers 31. We killed them 'for vengeance'.
The bible passage does not say to kill the young children out of self defense for something they might do in the future. If it does, please cut and paste the verse for me, thanks.
2. What happened to free will?
3. What happened to the trial (for the crime they didn't commit)?
4. What about the girls who would be spared if 'wanted' but killed if not wanted? What kind of justice / guilt calculation is that?
5. I didn't complain about God killing children, we can't stop that. But we are morally obligated to save innocent children even if God gives them a disease. I'm suggesting that our hearing a Voice isn't sufficient moral grounds for us to pick up the knife. Why kill the child? To save our souls? To get rewards in heaven? Neither answer is a 'Just' answer, God's Voice or not. Also, the bible itself gives criteria for reform (see my signature passages below). Surely babies are not so far gone that they can't be given a chance to reform? What would Jesus have done, killed them to 'fulfill' the commandments? Or forgiven them for their parent's crime?


Thank you for your post.


My question, quoted above:

[quote:34x0i3ej]
Then how is it just for the Midianite babies to be killed, specifically for vengeance, on something they neither did, nor had any control over?

[/quote:34x0i3ej]
I read the entire reply twice and did not figure out which part of the reply answers that specific question.

Could you do me a huge favor and copy and paste just the reply part which answers that specific question so I can focus on it?

Huge thanks for your time, attention, wisdom and assistance.

 

[nadab]

Hello Poster,
The killing of the male children or babies, from a human standpoint, may feel like an injustice on God's part. However, God's justice is not as man's. At Isaiah 55:9, God says: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." God's justice far exceeds man's. Man has the capacity to exercise justice, being made in God's "image".(Gen 1:26) The Midianites, who were the offspring of Abraham (Gen 25:2), did not practice true justice nor had a "conscience", but followed a belief system, pagan teachings that cast aside morality, violating God's universal laws.

Hence, hostility was manifested by the Midianites towards the nation of Israel as God's people. These Midianites cooperated with the Moabites in hiring Balaam to curse Israel. (Num 22:4-7) When this failed, the Midianites and Moabites, at Balaam's advice, cunningly used their women to induce thousands of Israelite males to become involved in sexual immorality and idolatry in connection with Baal.(Num 25:1-9, 14-18) As a result, God said through Moses: "Equip men from among you for the army, that they may serve against Midian to execute Jehovah's vengeance upon Midian."(Num 31:3) This vengeance included the male children, who may also have been involved.

It might be illustrated this way: When it has been found that a person has a cancerous tumor, the doctor(s) have the intent of removing all the cancer, leaving nothing to grow again. Even a small trace could cause the cancer to revive itself. Since it was at the instigation of the men of Midian, and the women were the "tools" that they used to "put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication"(Rev 2:14), then God decreed that these be put to death, along with any male children, who, when older, could continue to spread their false religious ideas to the Israelites, perhaps even attempting to seduce them again later to worship false gods, such as the Baals.

When Lot was visited by two angels, Genesis 19:4 says that "before they could lie down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob." Thus, even children were involved with this wicked mob for immoral purposes and hence, God caused all to be destroyed.(Gen 19:24) God protects his people from the wicked teachings and influences of the "world" (John 15:19), and reaps vengeance in their behalf.(2 Thess 1:6)

Moses told the nation of Israel: "Watch yourself that you do not conclude a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you going, for fear it may prove itself a snare in your midst. But their altars you people are to pull down, and their sacred pillars you are to shatter, and their sacred poles you are to cut down. For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a Jealous God, for fear you may conclude a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, as they will certainly have immoral intercourse with their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone will be certain to invite you, and you will certainly eat some of his sacrifice."(Ex 34:12-15)

Israel was to be separate from the nations. Though in a covenant with God and taught to "love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and your vital force" (Deut 6:5), these too followed the ways of the nations.(Hos 3:1) These were considered by God as a "wife".(Jer 3:20) Yet, these chose to "walk after other gods", in spite of God, as a "husbandly owner" (Jer 3:14), requiring "exclusive devotion".(Deut 6:14,15) Thus, God, as a "husband", became "jealous" of his people as a "wife", and took vengeance on the Midians for their craftiness and deceitfulness, who perhaps even used their children in this treachery.(compare Prov 6:34,35)

It is indeed sad, heart-wrenching, when little children or babies die. But God places the responsibility upon the parents for teaching their children about the true God and to love him.(Deut 6:6,7; 11:19) Just as at the Noachian flood, in which children and babies died, the parents could have searched for the true God, as Noah did. These did not. When the Israelites were about the leave Egypt on the night of Abib 14, 1513 B.C.E., any Egyptian could have splashed blood of a sheep above the door and on their two doorposts and spared their firstborn.(Ex 12:6,7,13,23) Most did not.(Ex 12:30)

Yet, the Psalmist wrote that "salvation is far away from the wicked ones, for they have not searched for (God's) own regulations."(Ps 119:155) Rahab, who was a prostitute of Jericho and and a Canaanite, did search for God's "regulations", recognizing who the true God was (Jos 2:9-13), despite being on the border between the Hittites and Perizzites in the land of Canaan. Her people did not. These blindly pursued an obstinate course, and their false religious beliefs were at the core of this, which indelibly affected their children. Thus, God said to "devote to destruction" all the city, including the children.

 

[Paidion]

Paidion,

Thanks for your post.

Do you believe that Jesus is a second 'God'? If I pray to God, I didn't pray to Jesus?
Why not just pray to God?

Most prayers recorded in the New Testament are addressed to God the Father. In fact, the only one of which I am aware that is addressed to Jesus is Stephen's when he called out, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit."

I'll answer this "second God" concept that you brought up more fully in another post. For now, I'll just mention that the apostle Paul distinuished between God the Father, and Jesus in at least two places:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...

Even more importantly, Jesus Himself, in His prayer, distinguished between Himself, and His Father whom He called "the only true God":

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

So Jesus is a different divine Individual. He is divine because the Father, who is divine begat Him at the beginning of time, just as you are human because your father who is human begat you, and your mother who is human gave you birth. Of course, the analogy is not perfect since the Father is not a physical being who begat in a physical way as we do.