Obeying The Gospel/The Truth/The Word/Righteousness

[farouk]

The opening post contains many verses that shows that not obeying, not doing, not working, not submitting leaves one lost. So salvation is by obedient works and not by works of merit of Eph 2:9.

...but obedient works, if they are done to obtain salvation, is another way of trying to obtain merit with God, which for the sinner is impossible. Faith in the Lord Jesus who died at the Cross for sinners, is what saves, and it is 'by grace' (verse 8), 'not of works' (verse 9).

What does happen then is that believers are 'his workmanship' (verse 10) and they follow the Lord Jesus in obedience, out of love and gratitude.

 

[BornAgain]

QUOTE=farouk;686663]...and it must be by grace that anything done by a believer that pleases God is done. Salvation is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2.9)[/QUOTE]


Farouk, you are saying grace does everything?

What is grace to you? How do you obtain salvation? Was it given to you?

 

[farouk]

QUOTE=farouk;686663]...and it must be by grace that anything done by a believer that pleases God is done. Salvation is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2.9)

Farouk, you are saying grace does everything?

What is grace to you? How do you obtain salvation? Was it given to you?[/QUOTE]

Christine:

Salvation is a gift, by grace, through faith, and by its nature grace cannot be earned.

Romans 11.6 expresses it well:

'...if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.'

Someone has written these helpful lines in verse:

'All of grace, yes grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow.
But the love all knowledge passing
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved one, you and me.'

Blessings.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

...but obedient works, if they are done to obtain salvation, is another way of trying to obtain merit with God, which for the sinner is impossible. Faith in the Lord Jesus who died at the Cross for sinners, is what saves, and it is 'by grace' (verse 8), 'not of works' (verse 9).

What does happen then is that believers are 'his workmanship' (verse 10) and they follow the Lord Jesus in obedience, out of love and gratitude.

I have a thread that I made with the purpose of showing that obedience to God does not earn salvation. From Rom 4:4,5 the only way savlation could ever be earned where it would be of debt and not of grace if one were to able to perfectly keep God's law, be perfectly sinless. Abraham was one that did not keep God's law perfectly for he sinned, yet he had an obedient faith in God.

Will you argue that Abraham's obedience in going out, leaving his land kindred and home and offering Issac earned his salvation?


When Naaman went to dip in the river, did his dipping mean he earned his cleansing so his cleansing was not of grace?


Again, many verses in the opening post that say obeying not the gospel, doing not, submitting not, working not leaves one lost. You have a contradiction between all those verses and your interpretation of Eph 2:8,9.

 

[farouk]

I have a thread that I made with the purpose of showing that obedience to God does not earn salvation. From Rom 4:4,5 the only way savlation could ever be earned where it would be of debt and not of grace if one were to able to perfectly keep God's law, be perfectly sinless. Abraham was one that did not keep God's law perfectly for he sinned, yet he had an obedient faith in God.

Will you argue that Abraham's obedience in going out, leaving his land kindred and home and offering Issac earned his salvation?


When Naaman went to dip in the river, did his dipping mean he earned his cleansing so his cleansing was not of grace?


Again, many verses in the opening post that say obeying not the gospel, doing not, submitting not, working not leaves one lost. You have a contradiction between all those verses and your interpretation of Eph 2:8,9.

See my immediately previous post.

 

[rrowell]

See my immediately previous post.

The "works" in Romans 11:6 is the Mosaic Law... Romans 11:6 is saying if the Mosaic Law could save us, there would be no need for Grace.

 

[smaller]

Again, many verses in the opening post that say obeying not the gospel, doing not, submitting not, working not leaves one lost. You have a contradiction between all those verses and your interpretation of Eph 2:8,9.

The alternative claim for retention then is always obeying, always doing, always submitting, always working

or

else .

Such claims would be hypocritical nonsense to any believer with half a wit.

None abide in such perpetual states, hard as they might try and even harder that they may deceive themselves that such conditions are so.

And since the perpetual states of always obedient, always doing, always submitting and always working do not factually exist to any honest person the next phase for such believers is perpetual disbelief if honesty overcomes them via reality or perpetual hypocrisy if they can't deal with reality of their own non-perpetuity in the requirements.

Classic waffle variety of believer.

Possibly saved one minute, possibly lost the next in perpetual alternating fashions. Never really sure of either or momentarily sure at best except in the hypocritically arrogant who are always perpetually sure they are momentarily saved but always perpetually sure the other guy might not be. The worst of all outcomes.

Unknowable salvation: the guarantee of uncertainty and the absolute assurance of doubt.

s

 

[Mitspa]

The verses mean that to be saved one must obey the gospel, do what the gospel/Christ says, work, submit to God's righteousness. There is no salvation without obeying, doing, working, submitting.

I agree one must walk in the "spirit" or else YOU are in the "flesh". Do you know what it means to be led of the "spirit" and to be "spiritual" according to scripture?
And Christ says many things such as heal the sick, cast out devils ... speak to the mountain etc.. have you been "doing" what He says for you to do?

 

[heymikey80]

Strong's hypakouō

1) to listen, to harken
a) of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
2) to harken to a command
a) to obey, be obedient to, submit to

It has nothing to do with just an attitude or mental persuasion and doing nothing at all.

Didja read that list? The primary meaning of hupakuo is to listen, as of a servant to master, yes, but it's to submissive hearing.

That's not focused on the work involved. It's focused on the person's attitude and his hearing the instructions of the Lord far, far more than actually doing work.

So why convert this word into something regarding work? it's not the main focus of what's being said.

From Thayer:

2. to harken to a commnd, i.e, to obey, be obedient unto, submit to..obeyed to go out i.e., went out obediently, Heb xi:8.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed [hypakouō]; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. "

Abraham's obedience hypakouō was the work, the doing of going out. Abraham was not just mentally persuaded to leave but actually did the work of leaving. Just thinking about going out is the same as not going out and would be disobedient to what God said to him to do.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, listened [υπηκουσεν, aorist of υπακουο]; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. "

The meaning is clear. It's listening with a submissive attitude.

 

[rrowell]

Didja read that list? The primary meaning of hupakuo is to listen, as of a servant to master, yes, but it's to submissive hearing.

That's not focused on the work involved. It's focused on the person's attitude and his hearing the instructions of the Lord far, far more than actually doing work.

So why convert this word into something regarding work? it's not the main focus of what's being said.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, listened [υπηκουσεν, aorist of υπακουο]; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. "

The meaning is clear. It's listening with a submissive attitude.

Hebrews 11:8 (KJV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed(υπηκουσεν); and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Luke 17:6 (KJV)
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey(υπηκουσεν) you.

I suppose this "sycamine tree" has an attitude?

Its a verb... (obedient work)... no getting around that, not in the Greek, or the English...

 

[heymikey80]

Hebrews 11:8 (KJV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed(υπηκουσεν); and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Luke 17:6 (KJV)
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey(υπηκουσεν) you.

I suppose this "sycamine tree" has an attitude?

That the tree should listen to you? Pretty clearly yes. And as a result of its submitting to you, it is moved into the sea.

One of the funny things about all this argument is that the verb is derived from the word for "hear", still current in our word "acoustics". The connection is pretty obvious to a Greek reader that the primary meaning is "hear".

 

[rrowell]

That the tree should listen to you? Pretty clearly yes. And as a result of its submitting to you, it is moved into the sea.

And as a result if it moving to the sea, would mean it "obeyed".

So what is your point?

 

[heymikey80]

And as a result if it moving to the sea, would mean it "obeyed".

So what is your point?

They're not equivalent. The visible response would point back to the fact that it heard.

That's been my point, available ever since the term "obey" came up in threads further back. The term in Greek doesn't refer primarily to the work.

 

[Mitspa]

He who has EARS TO HEAR! Hearing is the first requirement of FAITH!


Isa 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
Isa 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.
Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
Isa 48:4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
Isa 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

 

[rrowell]

They're not equivalent. The visible response would point back to the fact that it heard.

That's been my point, available ever since the term "obey" came up in threads further back. The term in Greek doesn't refer primarily to the work.

best (or a better) single-word interlinear translation (obey) Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940)

• Lemma: υπακουω
• Inflection: υπηκουσεν
• Uncontracted Form: υπ·ε·ακου·σε(ν)
• Parsing: 1aor act ind 3rd sg

 

[rrowell]

He who has EARS TO HEAR! Hearing is the first requirement of FAITH!

I agree, but hearing alone does not produce faith, one must (obey) what he hear to be "of faith" otherwise all we "hear" are words.

 

[Mitspa]

I agree, but hearing alone does not produce faith, one must (obey) what he hear to be "of faith" otherwise all we "hear" are words.

I agree! faith in unseen God and His power to perform what He has promised!
For as a man thinks in his heart, so is he! If I say "I have faith" and not act according to faith, then I will be found a "false witness".

 

[heymikey80]

best (or a better) single-word interlinear translation (obey) Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940)

• Lemma: υπακουω
• Inflection: υπηκουσεν
• Uncontracted Form: υπ·ε·ακου·σε(ν)
• Parsing: 1aor act ind 3rd sg

And yet the lexicons, the concordances, they all state that the primary meaning is to listen or hearken to a command.

Thayer; Strong's; BAG primarily says, "listen".

 

[rrowell]

And yet the lexicons, the concordances, they all state that the primary meaning is to listen or hearken to a command.

Thayer; Strong's; BAG primarily says, "listen".

"listen" in the context of:

to heed someone, orders, or advice. Listen to me! Do what I tell you! You really should listen to his advice.

Which is what Abraham and Naaman did

 

[heymikey80]

"listen" in the context of:

to heed someone, orders, or advice. Listen to me! Do what I tell you! You really should listen to his advice.

Which is what Abraham and Naaman did

So now we're into the larger point -- that the real answer here is that the Apostles talked about heeding advice, without jumping to focusing on the specific works involved. Should I say it again? "By grace you are saved ... not of works".

The Apostles used words pointing specifically to the Lordship of God, stopping short of assigning works as required for salvation.

Pointedly, you can heed the Gospel's command from God: "Don't work for your salvation." Heeding a command dictates whether you work in the first place.