Obeying The Gospel/The Truth/The Word/Righteousness

[rrowell]

So now we're into the larger point -- that the real answer here is that the Apostles talked about heeding advice, without jumping to focusing on the specific works involved. Should I say it again? "By grace you are saved ... not of works".

The Apostles used words pointing specifically to the Lordship of God, stopping short of assigning works as required for salvation.

Pointedly, you can heed the Gospel's command from God: "Don't work for your salvation." Heeding a command dictates whether you work in the first place.

Heeding a command only say's you acknowledge it, it does NOT say you do it, even you must agree simply "acknowledging" will not justify anything.

Besides, back to the original verse in question, I gave you the most appropriate rendition of the word "υπηκουσεν", the same reflected word used in the verse, again:

best (or a better) single-word interlinear translation (obey) Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940)

• Lemma: υπακουω
• Inflection: υπηκουσεν
• Uncontracted Form: υπ·ε·ακου·σε(ν)
• Parsing: 1aor act ind 3rd sg

which is why the same word, used three times in the TR : Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 is translated to the word "obey" or "obeyed", not Listen (another inflection of the word, remember those inflection thingies)...

Try as you may, you cannot twist the English, not even with the Greek, it was Obedient faith that justified Abraham and Naaman.

Not because they heard something, but they "did" what they heard...

Besides, it there is no works involved in obtaining righteousness, then why did he give us instructions?

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[BornAgain]

Heeding a command only say's you acknowledge it, it does NOT say you do it, even you must agree simply "acknowledging" will not justify anything.

Besides, back to the original verse in question, I gave you the most appropriate rendition of the word "υπηκουσεν", the same reflected word used in the verse, again:

best (or a better) single-word interlinear translation (obey) Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940)

• Lemma: υπακουω
• Inflection: υπηκουσεν
• Uncontracted Form: υπ·ε·ακου·σε(ν)
• Parsing: 1aor act ind 3rd sg

which is why the same word, used three times in the TR : Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 is translated to the word "obey" or "obeyed", not Listen (another inflection of the word, remember those inflection thingies)...

Try as you may, you cannot twist the English, not even with the Greek, it was Obedient faith that justified Abraham and Naaman.

Not because they heard something, but they "did" what they heard...

Besides, it there is no works involved in obtaining righteousness, then why did he give us instructions?

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[heymikey80]

Heeding a command only say's you acknowledge it, it does NOT say you do it, even you must agree simply "acknowledging" will not justify anything.

Hm; I disagree. Heeding a command recognizes it as a command, but also considers the command as it is -- not as some rebel against it.

Besides, back to the original verse in question, I gave you the most appropriate rendition of the word "υπηκουσεν", the same reflected word used in the verse, again:

best (or a better) single-word interlinear translation (obey) Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940)

• Lemma: υπακουω
• Inflection: υπηκουσεν
• Uncontracted Form: υπ·ε·ακου·σε(ν)
• Parsing: 1aor act ind 3rd sg

which is why the same word, used three times in the TR : Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 is translated to the word "obey" or "obeyed", not Listen (another inflection of the word, remember those inflection thingies)...

I'm going to bring it up to you again -- unless you've actually had a basic Greek class, it's not a good idea to argue with someone about Greek -- who's had Greek.

"hupakouo" is different from "hear", "akouo". But it's simply an emphasis on recognizing the rightfulness of the words and statements.

For instance: "hupakouo" is the word used for a criminal hearing. That is, the judge "hupakouo"s the defendant.

You don't plausibly think the judge is always going to obey the defendant in a hearing, do you? No, it'd be a wild mistake to think so.

What's the judge doing? He's listening seriously to the claims being made.

Try as you may, you cannot twist the English, not even with the Greek, it was Obedient faith that justified Abraham and Naaman.

Now we're getting into "rolling" works into faith, something Paul flatly denies. It was faith that justified Abraham, as for each who "does not work but believes" Rom 4:5.

Besides, it there is no works involved in obtaining righteousness, then why did he give us instructions?

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

For us to do good works, of course: "that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

But that still doesn't make works required for salvation.

 

[Mitspa]

Heeding a command only say's you acknowledge it, it does NOT say you do it, even you must agree simply "acknowledging" will not justify anything.

Besides, back to the original verse in question, I gave you the most appropriate rendition of the word "υπηκουσεν", the same reflected word used in the verse, again:

best (or a better) single-word interlinear translation (obey) Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed., 1925-1940)

• Lemma: υπακουω
• Inflection: υπηκουσεν
• Uncontracted Form: υπ·ε·ακου·σε(ν)
• Parsing: 1aor act ind 3rd sg

which is why the same word, used three times in the TR : Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 is translated to the word "obey" or "obeyed", not Listen (another inflection of the word, remember those inflection thingies)...

Try as you may, you cannot twist the English, not even with the Greek, it was Obedient faith that justified Abraham and Naaman.

Not because they heard something, but they "did" what they heard...

Besides, it there is no works involved in obtaining righteousness, then why did he give us instructions?

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Do you agree that man may have a form of "righteousness" according to their own understanding? And that God has a different standard than man?


Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Do you agree that what seems right to man is not always right in the eyes of The Lord? Does He have the RIGHT to say what is right? If HE does, do we not have to become as fools to be made wise, by HIS SPIRIT?

 

[rrowell]

Hm; I disagree. Heeding a command recognizes it as a command, but also considers the command as it is -- not as some rebel against it.

If today I were walking down the street and If today, God would (like in the days of old) tell me to do something, I may stop and "listen" or "heed", but if I keep right on walking, what did I just do? "disobeyed" had I "listened" I would have "obeyed".... (like Abraham and Naaman)

I'm going to bring it up to you again -- unless you've actually had a basic Greek class, it's not a good idea to argue with someone who's had Greek, about Greek.

I am not arguing with someone who knows Greek, it is apparent I am arguing with someone who says they know Greek or knows just enough to try and fool the readers on this forum by twisting it to make it say what they want and not what it says...

If you knew so much about Greek, you would have known "υπηκουσεν" means "obey"

BTW, did you actually pass the class?

Now we're getting into "rolling" works into faith, something Paul flatly denies. It was faith that justified Abraham, as for each who "does not work but believes" Rom 4:5.

No, your confusing "works" of the Mosaic Law, with the "Works" of James, you guys would have been so much better off had James forgot to mention that...

For us to do good works, of course: "that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

But that still doesn't make works required for salvation.

The same instructions are required to obtains salvation that are required to keep it...

 

[rrowell]

Do you agree that man may have a form of "righteousness" according to their own understanding? And that God has a different standard than man?

I believe it is man that has brought lack of understanding of the scripture, it is not as hard as he make it... you don't need to know the Greek!

God made the bible easy enough that even a Child can understand:

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Mitspa]

I believe it is man that has brought lack of understanding of the scripture, it is not as hard as he make it... you don't need to know the Greek!

God made the bible easy enough that even a Child can understand:

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Well I presented you with a simple scripture? can you not also give a "simple" response? to a simple question!

 

[heymikey80]

If today I were walking down the street and If today, God would (like in the days of old) tell me to do something, I may stop and "listen" or "heed", but if I keep right on walking, what did I just do? "disobeyed" had I "listened" I would have "obeyed".... (like Abraham and Naaman)

Hm. So you pray for everyone in the world, most of all? Let's get to brass tax, as it's what Scripture says.

I am not arguing with someone who knows Greek, it is apparent I am arguing with someone who says they know Greek or knows just enough to try and fool the readers on this forum by twisting it to make it say what they want and not what it says...

If you knew so much about Greek, you would have known "υπηκουσεν" means "obey"

I guess you're missing the point -- I know hupakouo can mean "obey", and points to responding to a command, but it's not the first thing to jump to. For obvious reasons cited above. A judge isn't listening attentively to a command, so "hupakouo" doesn't mean "obey" in particular.

“Call now; is there anyone who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?" Job 5:1. The word "answer" in the Septuagint is "hupakouo".
"And when he knocked at the door of the gateway, a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer." Acts 12:13. The word "answer" is "hupakouo".

BTW, did you actually pass the class?

Yep, highest grade in the class for this one.

No, your confusing "works" of the Mosaic Law, with the "Works" of James, you guys would have been so much better off had James forgot to mention that...

James simply said you can see Abraham was justified by what he does.

The same instructions are required to obtains salvation that are required to keep it...

... to believe in Christ.

 

[rrowell]

Do you agree that man may have a form of "righteousness" according to their own understanding? And that God has a different standard than man?

Absolutly, thats why he gave us the Gospel, to "reveal" in a comprehensible way, "What Must We Do?"

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Do you agree that what seems right to man is not always right in the eyes of The Lord? Does He have the RIGHT to say what is right? If HE does, do we not have to become as fools to be made wise, by HIS SPIRIT?

Yes man does not always see it correctly, in the verses you put forth is exactly what has been discussed here, the Jews knew the law better than their own names (Josephus said that not me), and they still could not get it right, Jesus rebuked them for it:

Matthew 22:29 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 15:6-9 (KJV)
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

They like some today would/will not let go of the Old Law.

Well I presented you with a simple scripture? can you not also give a "simple" response? to a simple question!

I wouldn't say calling someone out on something someone says pertaining the scriptures "Zealous".

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Mitspa]

Absolutly, thats why he gave us the Gospel, to "reveal" in a comprehensible way, "What Must We Do?"

Yes man does not always see it correctly, in the verses you put forth is exactly what has been discussed here, the Jews knew the law better than their own names (Josephus said that not me), and they still could not get it right, Jesus rebuked them for it:

Matthew 22:29 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 15:6-9 (KJV)
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

They like some today would/will not let go of the Old Law.



I would say calling someone out on something someone says pertaining the scriptures "Zealous".

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Paul did not condemn them for being "zealous" but doing it without understanding!

1Ti 1:7



Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8



But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9



Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10



For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11



According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Who is "righteous"?

 

[rrowell]

Who is "righteous"?

Those who hunger and thirst after it.

Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Note the verse does not expect one to be perfect as was he.

 

[Mitspa]

Those who hunger and thirst after it.

Matthew 5:6 (KJV)
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Note the verse does not expect one to be perfect as was he.

You now sound as one of those "faithless grace" folks? You just have to want it? No!


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

God is righteous! and we who believe in His Righteousness and His Works, done in Christ, are made righteous with Him!

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
:biglol

 

[rrowell]

I guess you're missing the point -- I know hupakouo can mean "obey", and points to responding to a command, but it's not the first thing to jump to. For obvious reasons cited above. A judge isn't listening attentively to a command, so "hupakouo" doesn't mean "obey" in particular.

And I know it can also mean "hear" and "listen" and "heed" and "hearken", Strongs 05219 covers more than one inflection, but this one means "obey" or "obeyed" as supported by Luke 17:6, Hebrews 11:8, and 1 Peter 3:6 which happens to be the only three places it is used with that inflection. but there are 9 different inflections used elsewhere in 24 different occurrences...

but this one means (obey)

 

[rrowell]

You now sound as one of those "faithless grace" folks? You just have to want it? No!


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

God is righteous! and we who believe in His Righteousness and His Works, done in Christ, are made righteous with Him!

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
:biglol

"In Christ" is the way, we both seem to agree, but I doubt we agree what it takes to get "In Christ"

 

[Mitspa]

"In Christ" is the way, we both seem to agree, but I doubt we agree what it takes to get "In Christ"

Its not about what you or I agree on? Its according to the Word of God!



Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


You see its about the Word of God, always has been, from the foundations of the world even to the end!

 

[rrowell]

Its not about what you or I agree on? Its according to the Word of God!



Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


You see its about the Word of God, always has been, from the foundations of the world even to the end!

To this I can only agree...