Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[miamited]

Do you have a scripture stating something is not managed by God.

Genesis 3:1-6
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Ephesians 1:4 says

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Ever ask 'who' is 'us'?

If God wished all men to be saved He at a minimum who see to it that everyone without exception would hear the gospel (faith cometh by hearing) so they could use their hypothetical "free will", yet billions have died having never heard of Christ.

I suppose that makes some sense in your thinking? Yes, billions have died never having heard of Christ. And that was before he even came.

Already chosen before God created time. Those chosen were 'saved' in time.

And yes, on that one? I must disagree. We are saved as we come to hear the gospel and repent of our sin and turn back to God through His Son, Jesus, which He himself prepared for us as our sacrifice for sin. The 'us' in Ephesians are all those who have believed in the gospel repented of sin and turned back to God. Paul is writing to believers, new covenant believers. People from many homes and cities across the known world in that day were coming to understand and believe the gospel that Jesus told us His Father was working on since the beginning. Those people Paul is writing to and they are the 'us'. They weren't elected. They just believed of their own will and volition. Yes, God's Spirit pricks a man's heart to get him to listen, but it is the heart within the man that must ultimately be changed. The hard wicked heart, has to be replaced with the soft pliable heart.

When the Scriptures use the word we translate as predestined, it is talking about how God has predestined that all those who would believe in His Son would be saved. That's what God has predestined. He didn't pick Mary and Tom and Gail and Sue. God predestined that all who would believe in His Son would be saved.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast

Hello Ted,
This might be the first time we have interacted. I believe we are to search out this very thing with a view to follow scripture. I see that we might start out not on the same page Let's take a look and see what concerns you have, and can we agree on more than we do not agree on.

Thanks for that bit. In that case, I'm one of those not in agreement.

I have posted with many who start out thinking that, so let's look into it

I don't believe that God micro-manages all that goes on, on the earth.

Before I try and address this, can I ask what exactly do you believe God does or does not control? We know God created the universe. So if He does not Micro- manage as you say, what does happen?

I believe that men have free will and God has sent out the gospel of eternal life through His Son to all men that they may believe

Ok many share that belief with you'

. See, I don't think the gospel was sent out to those that God had already saved before sin ever entered into the world.

Ted...election took place before the world was, however all men and women are born children of wrath , even others; They get saved the way the bible describes, preaching and teaching of scripture and being commanded to repent and believe the gospel.
God has determined who will be saving drawn to Jesus, and the means that will be used;
Rom 10:9-17

Now, don't misunderstand me in this. Yes!!!!!! God does have work that He has micromanaged from the day He spoke, "Let there be light!" But it isn't absolutely everything that goes on, on the earth.

Again, if you could expand on God's role here and now...what is He doing? What scripture do you use to show it?

You see, if I'm understanding your position, that makes God unfair to me. He just picks and chooses who will be saved 50,000 years ago and all this living for the rest of us is just for naught, eh.

My position is that if God had not elected a multitude of people, no one would ever be saved.

Sounds like a pretty cruel taskmaster to me.

We will look at that.

But, if God, as I believe, wants all men to be saved, which is what His word says,

God never intended to save all men ever born.
That is not what the bible teaches at all.

then He hasn't chosen some...He's chosen all.

Are you saying He chose all men ever born?

But the caveat is that they have to come to Him on His terms.

What do you think happened at the fall? Did Adam die Spiritually? Or was he only wounded?

They have to hear and understand the gospel and come to God through the same Son through which God made everything in this realm of His creating.

Yes..agreed

Jesus really is the answer to everything for everyone.

Agreed

So you believe that everyone we read about in the Acts of the apostles coming to salvation, was already saved before the world was created.

No..salvation happens here on earth every day.

Jesus was just making a good show of it to the rest of us so all the actors could gloat over us.

Ted, there is no need to invent such a scenario, is there? Jesus came to do the Father's will.

Got it!

Ted, do not get it too fast.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Before I try and address this, can I ask what exactly do you believe God does or does not control? We know God created the universe. So if He does not Micro- manage as you say, what does happen?

God 'can' control everything. He can split a 300 feet deep sea. He can cause the sun to literally and actually stand still in the sky over us. He can also cause a shadow cast by the sun to go backwards against the direction that it normally travels. He can cause a small delicate baby to be born from a woman who has never had relations with a man. God 'can' control everything. My position is that He doesn't. As recently as Paul's letter to the Romans we read:

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

God has turned the wicked over to their own devices. That's why God's word gives us so many warnings about following the natural inclination of our hearts. We have the free will to do that.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

My position is that if God had not elected a multitude of people, no one would ever be saved.

Well, your position is wrong is all that's the problem here. If you just would understand that the preaching, receiving and acceptance of the gospel is what saves men, as the Scriptures seem to pretty clearly explain, then you'd likely have a better understanding of what's going on here.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Are you saying He chose all men ever born?

That would be the case if you say that God's will prevails in all things. That is His stated will to us in the Scriptures. That all men come to the knowledge of salvation through His Son. Those are God's words not mine. Argue with him.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

What do you think happened at the fall? Did Adam die Spiritually? Or was he only wounded?

All mankind suffered spiritual death from Adam's sin. At least that's what Jesus said.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Iconoclast]

All mankind suffered spiritual death from Adam's sin. At least that's what Jesus said.

God bless,
Ted

So you agree Adam died spiritually and as a result so all mankind are born spiritually dead sinners.

 

[Iconoclast]

That would be the case if you say that God's will prevails in all things.

I do not believe God elected every person ever born. This can be easily proven from scripture.

That is His stated will to us in the Scriptures.

I am not in agreement that is the teaching.

That all men come to the knowledge of salvation through His Son.

There are problems with your use of this verse in that way.
What about men who never heard about Jesus?
Multitudes have lived and died who never heard about Him?

Those are God's words not mine.

Is it possible it has another meaning?

Argue with him.

I do not think it is wise to attempt to argue with God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, your position is wrong is all that's the problem here.

Ted, could you tell me what my position is?

If you just would understand that the preaching, receiving and acceptance of the gospel is what saves men,

I agree that preaching and teaching is used by God to save sinners. God saves sinners.
I do not read about "accepting" anything, however.

as the Scriptures seem to pretty clearly explain, then you'd likely have a better understanding of what's going on here.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Checks his calendar. No, it's not April 1st. (hmmmm, I am assuming you are familiar with the day in Swiss culture.)

I am an American but yet, that is known in Europe too.

Holy smokes.... you quoted 6 bible references. You got a fever? *giggle*

Of course. Most of what I quote is from memory but I have to use the KJV or a moderator will delete it as I am required to state which version (not the location) unless it is KJV and another one for legal reasons. I will put the scriptures in blue for your convenience.

Wow, I am impressed. Takes deep devotion to do that.

Well, it is not that impressive. I was able to fly back to 1st world comforts every 6-12 weeks or so and could take a hot shower and have clean clothes (I still enjoy clean clothes and a hot shower.) Before I left my dad asked me to write out a reasons why I was choosing this way. (I had finished my scientific professional training and would be left behind if I left it for some years and so it was risky.) The one item that outweighed all the others risks was that I wanted to understand and know God. I hungered to know Him. I hungered to understand His ways. I thirsted for Him as a deer pants for the waters. I met my husband there and that moved me to Europe (he is European) so that is why I am here. But I can say with complete support of the Holy Spirit within me, that I came to know and understand the living God but it is a very expensive pursuit that will cost a man his pride on many levels. He is the pearl of great price that a man sells all that he has and buys.

The learning only started on the mission field. It began in earnest when I had to deal with the world and had to respond as He required me to do IF I WERE TO KNOW HIM BETTER. "He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God and he will raise you up." (from memory, not cut and paste).

I enjoyed our discussion. You're love for God is great. You love Him because He loved you first. 1 John 4:19

I enjoyed or discussion as well. I appreciate the compliment but I do not think God thinks my love for Him is great and He is the only measure worth talking about. Love for God in God's eyes is measured by the degree of obedience. I have a long way to go.

But my love for God is not because of what he gives, even love. Not anymore. That is self-interest and the love a child has for their parents. Now I love Him for who He is, not for what He gives me. Revelation 15:3 and the Psalms are full of love for God because He is just and true.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am an American but yet, that is known in Europe too.

Of course. Most of what I quote is from memory but I have to use the KJV or a moderator will delete it as I am required to state which version (not the location) unless it is KJV and another one for legal reasons. I will put the scriptures in blue for your convenience.

Well, it is not that impressive. I was able to fly back to 1st world comforts every 6-12 weeks or so and could take a hot shower and have clean clothes (I still enjoy clean clothes and a hot shower.) Before I left my dad asked me to write out a reasons why I was choosing this way. (I had finished my scientific professional training and would be left behind if I left it for some years and so it was risky.) The one item that outweighed all the others risks was that I wanted to understand and know God. I hungered to know Him. I hungered to understand His ways. I thirsted for Him as a deer pants for the waters. I met my husband there and that moved me to Europe (he is European) so that is why I am here. But I can say with complete support of the Holy Spirit within me, that I came to know and understand the living God but it is a very expensive pursuit that will cost a man his pride on many levels. He is the pearl of great price that a man sells all that he has and buys.

The learning only started on the mission field. It began in earnest when I had to deal with the world and had to respond as He required me to do IF I WERE TO KNOW HIM BETTER. "He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God and he will raise you up." (from memory, not cut and paste).

I enjoyed or discussion as well. I appreciate the compliment but I do not think God thinks my love for Him is great and He is the only measure worth talking about. Love for God in God's eyes is measured by the degree of obedience. I have a long way to go.

But my love for God is not because of what he gives, even love. Not anymore. That is self-interest and the love a child has for their parents. Now I love Him for who He is, not for what He gives me. Revelation 15:3 and the Psalms are full of love for God because He is just and true.

Such a nice post of your life DM.
Check out who's who in either New Members or The Lounge. You should post this there!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Such a nice post of your life DM.
Check out who's who in either New Members or The Lounge. You should post this there!

Thanks W, I don’t quite understand. I’m not a new member. It isn’t a thread so where should it go? Thanks!

 

[miamited]

So you agree Adam died spiritually and as a result so all mankind are born spiritually dead sinners.

Hi Iconoclast

Yes, I agree with that statement.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

I do not believe God elected every person ever born. This can be easily proven from scripture.

So, clear this up for me. Of those who will be saved, some have been elected and some have not. Does that correctly state your position?

I am not in agreement that is the teaching.

So, does that mean that you don't believe these words should have been written into the Scriptures? That Paul should not have written these words to Timothy because they do not express the true will of God.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

There are problems with your use of this verse in that way.
What about men who never heard about Jesus?
Multitudes have lived and died who never heard about Him?

No. There seems to be a problem in your understanding, which is exactly the point I've been trying to make, that God's will is not necessarily always done upon the earth among the comings and goings of men. Why would the 'fact' that many people will, or have been, lost, have anything to do with what God's will is? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. God does not micromanage the things of the earth. Yes, He causes to happen things that are within the workings of His great plan, but Paul clearly writes here that it is God's will that all men be saved. The truth of reality is that the Scriptures are quite clear that all men won't come to the knowledge of salvation...but that doesn't change what God's will is!

Is it possible it has another meaning?

I'm listening. I'll always listen to a brother tell me what they believe about God and His word. Expound please.

Ted, could you tell me what my position is?

My position is that if God had not elected a multitude of people, no one would ever be saved.

You literally wrote this statement that I copied in my response. Really??????? Is what you're telling me now is that you've been lying all this time and these 'positions' (your word) you have been proclaiming aren't the truth about you? I honestly can't believe that you asked that question when your very words were quoted in my response.

I agree that preaching and teaching is used by God to save sinners. God saves sinners.
I do not read about "accepting" anything, however.

So, would it be true to say of you, that you believe that all that has to be done is that we go out and preach and teach and what? Nobody 'accepts' the things that we are preaching and teaching about God, His Son, His Spirit and His word. People just come to God's salvation without ever having made the choice to 'accept' the truth of the gospel and thereby receive His salvation? What is it? Do they just come up and say, "Well, I don't believe a word you're telling me. I don't accept it as the truth. But hey, I'm going to join in with you to be saved anyway." You really don't believe that an individual has to 'accept' the truth of God to be saved?

I gotta say friend, your argument seems to falter in the light of God's word.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy0 said: Do you have a scripture stating something is not managed by God.

Genesis 3:1-6
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast

Where does it say God was not in control? You assume it because something bad in your mind happened.
One could just as easily look at Job horrible circumstances and come to the same conclusion, but in the case of Job we are given a glimpse behind the see and God talks to Satan and limits what Satan can do. For all you know the same is happening with Genesis 3:1-6. FIND A VERSE SAYING GOD IS NOT IN CONTROL. The only ones are anthropomorphic.


Re: Eph. 1:4

Ever ask 'who' is 'us'?

It's the elect, those chosen by God. The book is written to believers. Not sure what your point is.

I suppose that makes some sense in your thinking? Yes, billions have died never having heard of Christ. And that was before he even came.

Well, you stated the fact. Now, given you stated God wished all men to be saved it is incumbent upon you to explain how that can be when the undeniable evidence show billions of people had no chance. Some state universalism, others create a new gospel wherein one knows God exists thru nature and somehow can save themselves .... or perhaps it a "mystery"(you don't know) ...
Explain the apparent contradiction: God wishes everyone to be saved yet gives billions no opportunity to be saved. The ball is still in your court.

Those people Paul is writing to and they are the 'us'. They weren't elected. They just believed of their own will and volition.

Again, statements with no scripture to back it up. You can't find "free willyism" in the bible. You impose your construct on how God must act and come up with unscriptural theories to try to support your ideas.
Re: "they weren't elected.... Eph 1:4 says the were chosen which means elected. There are 50ish verses saying God elects/chooses/appoints/predestines people. Show my a verse that says any 'saved' person was not chosen.
John 1:12-13 says we are born again due to God's will and to double down it say we were not born again because of our will. SHOW ME YOUR VERSES!!!!

When the Scriptures use the word we translate as predestined, it is talking about how God has predestined that all those who would believe in His Son would be saved. That's what God has predestined. He didn't pick Mary and Tom and Gail and Sue. God predestined that all who would believe in His Son would be saved.

God chooses people. There is no verse speaking of free willyism, let alone stating free willyism save people.

• Matthew 11:21 “Woe (judgment is coming) to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon [cities of the Gentiles], they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes [their hearts would have been changed and they would have expressed sorrow for their sin and rebellion against God]. Jesus would be the cause of cities turning to him if He had visited them. Clearly, God is doing the chosing
• Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Salvific faith requires the acknowledgement that Christ is God and here we see that this knowledge came from God and not Peter
• John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

You make a lot of statements but rarely verses to support them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You make a lot of statements but rarely verses to support them.

Is this your standard argument? You seem to use it a lot.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am an American

I'm a half-breed, the product of a mixed marriage. Mommy is a Canuck and daddy a Yankee/Canuck.

but I have to use the KJV or a moderator will delete it as I am required to state which version (not the location) unless it is KJV

Hmmm, news to me.
Aside: KJV is worst one out there which is not to say it is not 99%+ accurate. It is a relative statement.

Well, it is not that impressive. I was able to fly back to 1st world comforts every 6-12 weeks or so and could take a hot shower and have clean clothes (I still enjoy clean clothes and a hot shower.) Before I left my dad asked me to write out a reasons why I was choosing this way. (I had finished my scientific professional training and would be left behind if I left it for some years and so it was risky.) The one item that outweighed all the others risks was that I wanted to understand and know God. I hungered to know Him. I hungered to understand His ways. I thirsted for Him as a deer pants for the waters.

All very commendable. When God hands out rewards I think you may be near the front of the line...look way, way back of the line and wave to me. Still curious as to what field of science you are in.

I met my husband there and that moved me to Europe (he is European)

WHAT!!!! :shock He took you away from us. The cad! Like, that's one step away from the unforgivable sin.
(aside: I can't think of a supporting bible reference; sure it will come to me later.)

But I can say with complete support of the Holy Spirit within me, that I came to know and understand the living God but it is a very expensive pursuit that will cost a man his pride on many levels. He is the pearl of great price that a man sells all that he has and buys.

Well said.

"He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God and he will raise you up." (from memory, not cut and paste).

1 Peter 5:5-6,James 4:6-7 ... thank you Google search engine.

I enjoyed or discussion as well. I appreciate the compliment but I do not think God thinks my love for Him is great and He is the only measure worth talking about. Love for God in God's eyes is measured by the degree of obedience. I have a long way to go.

I would disagree somewhat.
On a human level, though I admire your dedication and work for God that surpasses mine.... you're works are nothing to God (Romans 7:18). That's the potential bad news. The good news is that you are IN CHRIST and thus His perfect righteousness has been imputed to you Isaiah 53:11; Isaiah 53:11; Romans 3:22; Romans 4:22-23. Therefore, His love for you is akin to His love for Christ (John 15:9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love; John 14:20, Upper Room Discourse)
General Aside: Now the Free Will worshipers would say that by their free will they were able to, independent of God, accomplish great feats of obedience for which they should be rewarded.
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. .... to which Free Willies reply, I have Free Will so what I did was not caused by you, but done independently and I should be repaid. I say this humbly, of course.
(Aside: sorry, not directed at you Dorothy)

 

[Iconoclast]

So, clear this up for me. Of those who will be saved, some have been elected and some have not. Does that correctly state your position?

Hello Ted,
Thanks for your response. WE can begin to refine what we believe now. Let me begin to clarify what I believe for you.
There will be no person in heaven who has not been elected by God.
In a sermon I heard the pastor asked the lady who struggled against the idea of election. He asked her;
Did God save you or did you save yourself? she said God saved me. Then the pastor said did He save you on purpose, or was it an accident?She said God saved me on purpose. He said...That is the doctrine of election!
I will set out to biblically demonstrate that now. We have 66 books to study to come up with a biblical position on this. Instead of looking at one, or two verses, I think we are better served to consider the whole bible on such an important issue. Can you agree with that? Does that seem reasonable?
In turn, You could offer your understanding of the biblical teaching on election so we could see what we agree on.

So, does that mean that you don't believe these words should have been written into the Scriptures?

No, of course not. It means that I believe each and every verse fits into scriptural revelation and need to be understood in a way that there is not one contradiction to be found there. Do you believe the bible has any contradictions?

That Paul should not have written these words to Timothy because they do not express the true will of God.

In offering the gospel to all men in what is known as the general call, it demonstrates that the intent is to go worldwide. we find God has His people scattered worldwide. Every tribe, Kindred and tongue. Wealthy people, poor people, young men, old men, smart, not so smart, workers, kings.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

No. There seems to be a problem in your understanding,

Or perhaps you are not seeing the big picture. What I am saying is, this one verse is a good verse , however it does not say God has purposed to save all men. When God purposes to do something it gets done as described here;
Isa.46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Such verses and there are many show us that our God does not try and fail, but does all He is pleased to do.

which is exactly the point I've been trying to make, that God's will is not necessarily always done upon the earth among the comings and goings of men.

Sin has caused this disruption.

Why would the 'fact' that many people will, or have been, lost, have anything to do with what God's will is?

The bible describes God as longsuffering, which indicates he is tolerating the wicked until the judgment, because all of the elected persons have not yet been born and come to Jesus yet.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. God does not micromanage the things of the earth.

We do not agree on this. God controls every molecule in the universe.
psalm147;
4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
psalm148:
7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

Yes, He causes to happen things that are within the workings of His great plan,

Ted, this is true, but an understatement. God is never not in control of anything, read psalm139

but Paul clearly writes here that it is God's will that all men be saved.

Yes..it is a gospel that is offered to all men worldwide.

The truth of reality is that the Scriptures are quite clear that all men won't come to the knowledge of salvation...but that doesn't change what God's will is!

Spiritual death prevents them from coming, that is the condition of all men.They cannot come, unless God does something to them.....sin prevents them, they love it.They are fully responsible but are unwilling to come.
They are not spiritually wounded, but dead, a corpse.The word dead in Eph2 is necros, a corpse.
Corpses do not do anything. They are dead. A spiritual corpse cannot do any spiritual saving activity. It can be involved in a dead religion and the worship of demon spirits, but never the true and living God.
look here; 1 cor.10:
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God:
and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do you agree here? Can you see this?

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2

I'm listening. I'll always listen to a brother tell me what they believe about God and His word. Expound please.

Ted, we go back and forth. I am trying to give a little bit more I what i have found. We each give account of ourselves to God. We each have to have all the verses fit , not just some.

You literally wrote this statement that I copied in my response. Really??????? Is what you're telling me now is that you've been lying all this time and these 'positions' (your word) you have been proclaiming aren't the truth about you? I honestly can't believe that you asked that question when your very words were quoted in my response.

No need to suggest such a thing TED, is there. let me suggest to you I believe more than one sentence.
Is it possible you are set to oppose anything I offer? Ted we serve a Covenant making, and a covenant keeping God.
I see nothing in your posts that even consider any of these core teachings.
Do you think the covenants have no meaning here???
We are going back and forth, do not try and solve the puzzle so fast.

So, would it be true to say of you, that you believe that all that has to be done is that we go out and preach and teach and what?

God has given us the Great Commission that is to go worldwide. That means we as the people of God need to know as much as we can so we can speak faithfully the truth of God. It goes to all nations because God has some of His people there.

Nobody 'accepts' the things that we are preaching and teaching about God, His Son, His Spirit and His word. People just come to God's salvation without ever having made the choice to 'accept' the truth of the gospel and thereby receive His salvation? What is it? Do they just come up and say, "Well, I don't believe a word you're telling me. I don't accept it as the truth. But hey, I'm going to join in with you to be saved anyway." You really don't believe that an individual has to 'accept' the truth of God to be saved?

God the Holy Spirit gives a new heart so they can receive the truth of God. jn.1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I gotta say friend, your argument seems to falter in the light of God's word.

I think we will see that it derives from scripture and once I strengthen my position by describing the Covenant nature of it all, we might see who is faltering and maybe shall we say deficient biblically. I am up for such a challenge.
Let's take some time to walk through it! thank you for your good questions, give me your strongest ideas, and explain your worldview a bit,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hmmm, news to me.
Aside: KJV is worst one out there which is not to say it is not 99%+ accurate. It is a relative statement.

I disagree. I think the KJV is the best but it is not for the uneducated, I admit. But then, I read of my own free will Shakespeare and enjoyed it.

All very commendable. When God hands out rewards I think you may be near the front of the line...look way, way back of the line and wave to me. Still curious as to what field of science you are in.

I work in neurological research at the moment. As for the second sentence, what can I say. When God talks about rewards, He means something very valuable.

WHAT!!!! :shock He took you away from us. The cad! Like, that's one step away from the unforgivable sin.
(aside: I can't think of a supporting bible reference; sure it will come to me later.)

I am afraid I consider myself lucky. The US was pretty scary during the Covid years. But I cannot say most of Europe was different. Most of Europe was the same tyranny.

Well said.

Thank you.

1 Peter 5:5-6,James 4:6-7 ... thank you Google search engine.

Quoting it gives more information to the reader than where it is. Jesus did not care about where a verse was and neither did any of the Bible writers. They sometimes mentioned the name of the OT writer...sometimes.

I would disagree somewhat.
On a human level, though I admire your dedication and work for God that surpasses mine.... you're works are nothing to God (Romans 7:18). That's the potential bad news. The good news is that you are IN CHRIST and thus His perfect righteousness has been imputed to you Isaiah 53:11; Isaiah 53:11; Romans 3:22; Romans 4:22-23. Therefore, His love for you is akin to His love for Christ (John 15:9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love; John 14:20, Upper Room Discourse)

I am afraid the scripture supports my view. John 14:15, John 14:23 The measure of loving God is keeping his teaching. It is not a promise and it is not attributed to us by the love Jesus had for God. We are not accredited with loving God with all of your being because Jesus did and I challenge you to find me a verse that says we love God automatically or God sees us as loving Him because Jesus did.

General Aside: Now the Free Will worshipers would say that by their free will they were able to, independent of God, accomplish great feats of obedience for which they should be rewarded.

Nope, straw man. This is an argument you borrowed form others and it is divorced from real life. No one who has loved God and obeyed him says this. No one. The experience is nothing like the above description.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. .... to which Free Willies reply, I have Free Will so what I did was not caused by you, but done independently and I should be repaid. I say this humbly, of course.
(Aside: sorry, not directed at you Dorothy)

The relationship between the Father and is us not one of paying. The son does not owe the father and the father does not owe the son. Your understanding of that relationship seems to be a kind of legal one of debt and payment. I beg to differ.