Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[GodsGrace]

You blame God for mans sin.
What if "reformed"Christians are the only ones? What if that alone is the biblical teaching?

If you're the only ones, and after 1,500 years of Christianity till these teachings came about, and based on the teachings of a gnostic from 400AD?

Yes. I'd be worried.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you. All credit to my sources.

Ya gotta know they're there!

 

[Niblo]

Ya gotta know they're there!

Stop confusing me with fact! 2

 

[jasonc]

Greetings,

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

In reply, you reference Psalm 110:3. Here it is (in several versions):

‘When you go to war, your people will serve you willingly. You are arrayed in holy garments, and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.’ (‘New Living Translation’).

‘Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.’ (‘English Standard Version’).

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’ (‘King James Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer on your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘Christian Standard Bible’).

‘Your people will volunteer when you call up your army. Your young people will come to you in holy splendor like dew in the early morning.’ (‘God’s Word Translation’).

‘Your soldiers are willing volunteers on your day of battle; in majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.’ (‘International Standard Version’).

‘Your people come forward willingly on your day of battle. In majestic holiness, from the womb, from the dawn, yours was the dew of youth.’ (‘The Jewish Study Bible’).

Albert Barnes – a noted American theologian – informs us that the word rendered ‘willing’ (‘nedâbôth’) is:

‘…in the plural number… The singular - נדבה nedâbâh - means voluntariness, spontaneousness: and hence, it comes to mean spontaneously, voluntarily, of a willing mind.

‘It is rendered a “willing offering,” in Exodus 35: 29; “free offering,” in Exodus 36: 3; “voluntary offering,” in Leviticus 7: 16; “free-will offering,” in Leviticus 22: 18, Leviticus 22: 21, Leviticus 22: 23; Leviticus 23: 38; Numbers 15: 3; Numbers 29: 39; Deuteronomy 12: 6, Deuteronomy 12: 17; Deuteronomy 16: 10; Deuteronomy 23: 23; 2 Chronicles 31: 14; Ezra 1: 4; Ezra 3: 5; Ezra 8: 28; Psalm 119: 108; “willingly,” in 2 Chronicles 35: 8; “plentiful,” in Psalm 68: 9; “voluntary, and voluntarily,” in Ezekiel 46: 12; “freely,” in Hosea 14: 4; and “free-offering,” in Amos 4: 5.

‘It does not occur elsewhere. The idea is that of “freeness;” of voluntariness; of doing it from choice, doing it of their own will. They did it in the exercise of freedom. There was no compulsion; no constraint.’ (‘Barnes On The Old Testament: Notes On The Whole Bible’; my emphases).

Charles Spurgeon – who writes: ‘I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.’ (‘Charles Spurgeon Autobiography (2 Volume Set)’ – renders Psalm 110:3 as:

‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’

He comments:

‘Ver. 3. —Thy people shall be willing. Willing to do what? They shall be willing while others are unwilling. The simple term "willing, "is very expressive. It denotes the beautiful condition of creatures who suffer themselves to be wrought upon, and moved, according to the will of God. They suffer God to work in them to will and to do. They are willing to die unto all sin, they are willing to crucify the old man, or self, in order that the new man, or Christ, may be formed in them. They are willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them. They are willing to be transferred from nature's steps of human descent to God's steps of human ascent.

‘God will beautify them with salvation, because there is nothing in them to hinder his working. They will be wise, they will be good, they will be lovely, they will be like God, for they are "willing"; and there proceeds from God a mighty spirit, the whole tendency of which is to make his creatures like himself.’ (‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’; my emphases).

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’?

Blessings.

Albert Barnes was a Presbyterian.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you're the only ones, and after 1,500 years of Christianity till these teachings came about, and based on the teachings of a gnostic from 400AD?

Yes. I'd be worried.

Well W, I am not worried at all. My beliefs come from Jesus and the Apostles, and the other biblical writers.
This false gnostic charge comes from anti Cal websites that you look at, to get ideas, how to try and oppose the true teachings. I do not read gnostics, I do not read Augustine. In fact when I first believed these core teachings of the bible I could not tell you anything about these people or groups.
What I have seen is a number fo the anti Cal sites which spread lies and gossip material, slandering solid believers.
The fact is truth existed as the bible was being written.
before the printing press, and the bible being translated into the language of the people, many did not have access to much study material, so they only were being misled, by the carnal early church fathers, so called, which you are very keen on, who led us to apostate RC church.
I would never blame God, for mans sin. You will never see me quote Augustine, or Gnostics, so no need to post that lame excuse anymore.

 

[Iconoclast]

This goes to free will which I accept. God will never force us to do anything we don't want to do.

So are you suggesting that King Nebuchadnezzar voluntarily ate grass , like he went vegan on his own?
Or did God teach him a lesson?


30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

 

[Fastfredy0]

1. YOU don’t define free will even if you do

You didn't define it comprehensively. It is more that a choice or you don't understand the crux of the discussion which includes ... why did you make the choice. They don't put FREE in front of WILL for nothing. FREE FROM WHAT?
You take credit of a non answer. Reminds me what I was a kid and I would ask Billy why he did X and Billy would reply "BECAUSE". I would say "BECAUSE is not an answer". You do the same thing but put an incomplete define of FREE WILL as your answer. You might as will say BECAUSE like Billy.

For every effect there is a cause. Who is the CAUSE of your salvation for example.
You answer, "my choice" is why I did. ... well, why did you choice.... this is elementary metaphysics. *sigh*

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn't define it comprehensively. It is more that a choice or you don't understand the crux of the discussion which includes ... why did you make the choice. They don't put FREE in front of WILL for nothing. FREE FROM WHAT?
You take credit of a non answer. Reminds me what I was a kid and I would ask Billy why he did X and Billy would reply "BECAUSE". I would say "BECAUSE is not an answer". You do the same thing but put an incomplete define of FREE WILL as your answer. You might as will say BECAUSE like Billy.

For every effect there is a cause. Who is the CAUSE of your salvation for example.
You answer, "my choice" is why I did. ... well, why did you choice.... this is elementary metaphysics. *sigh*

*sigh*
Why does God choose some for heaven and some for hell?

Please don't say BECAUSE.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Well W, I am not worried at all. My beliefs come from Jesus and the Apostles, and the other biblical writers.

What? 2 You don't self-create your will from nothing, program your likes and dislikes and then use them to make decisions from God's influence? "In Him you live live and breathe and have your being" to which you add a self-created will possibly from the ether in deep space ... yahda, yahda .... hmmm, maybe you have an eternal sole as the Mormons propose and use that to program yourself.
End of satirical comment.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Why does God choose some for heaven and some for hell?

Please don't say BECAUSE.

You define FREE WILL first ... comprehensively .... No simplictic statement like, "It's a choice" like Dorothy Mae
Where did you get it from? What is it and how does it work? How did you program it and what was your reasoning for said programming and where did you get your reasoning to set up your FREE WILL?

Also: Where did you get your depraved nature? Did you choose it using your FREE WILL (which needs to be defined). If you choose it from your Free Will, why did you create a WILL that would do such a thing? Why has everyone on the planet using their free will (whatever that is), freely decided to be depraved? Like the odds are next to impossible.

Aside: I doubt I will get a response. Free Will is imaginary so not like you will defend that which does not exist. Since it is so central to your theology and since you are an official representative of this forum one would think you would step up to the plate ... educate us ... I assume that is part of your purpose here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well W, I am not worried at all. My beliefs come from Jesus and the Apostles, and the other biblical writers.

We won't be agreeing on this.
Jesus didn't preach for 3 years to teach man how to enter into the Kingdom, if, in the end, God Father would end up choosing the saved.
Why so much preaching then?

Why so much writing to us in the NT if it will be of no effect?

This false gnostic charge comes from anti Cal websites that you look at,

Oh.
It can't come from me having been Catholic and knowing about Augustine?
It can't be from studying christian history?
It can't be from reading Ken Wilson's book on him?

Is the web all there is these days?
Is this how YOU learned your faith?

to get ideas, how to try and oppose the true teachings. I do not read gnostics, I do not read Augustine.

That's OK.
John Calvin mentions Augustine in his writings ad nauseam. I hope you know that the confessions are based on Calvin's teachings.

In fact when I first believed these core teachings of the bible I could not tell you anything about these people or groups.
What I have seen is a number fo the anti Cal sites which spread lies and gossip material, slandering solid believers.

Please list 2 or 3 lies and give the source.
From the web, of course,

The fact is truth existed as the bible was being written.
before the printing press, and the bible being translated into the language of the people, many did not have access to much study material, so they only were being misled,

What does this have to do with anything?
You said you learned the bible on your own.
So others cannot?
Only because they don't agree with you?
But you're right.
Calvinism must be indoctrinated.

by the carnal early church fathers, so called, which you are very keen on, who led us to apostate RC church.

The ECFs did NOT lead to an apostate church.
This is one of the most incorrect statements I've heard.

I would never blame God, for mans sin. You will never see me quote Augustine, or Gnostics, so no need to post that lame excuse anymore.

Maybe YOU don't make God responsible for man's sins, but calvinism does, defacto.
I've posted Piper and MacArthur stating this.

 

[GodsGrace]

So are you suggesting that King Nebuchadnezzar voluntarily ate grass , like he went vegan on his own?
Or did God teach him a lesson?


30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

So God dies force us?
So we Are His puppets?

 

[GodsGrace]

You define FREE WILL first ... comprehensively .... No simplictic statement like, "It's a choice" like Dorothy Mae
Where did you get it from? What is it and how does it work? How did you program it and what was your reasoning for said programming and where did you get your reasoning to set up your FREE WILL?

Also: Where did you get your depraved nature? Did you choose it using your FREE WILL (which needs to be defined). If you choose it from your Free Will, why did you create a WILL that would do such a thing? Why has everyone on the planet using their free will (whatever that is), freely decided to be depraved? Like the odds are next to impossible.

Aside: I doubt I will get a response. Free Will is imaginary so not like you will defend that which does not exist. Since it is so central to your theology and since you are an official representative of this forum one would think you would step up to the plate ... educate us ... I assume that is part of your purpose here.

You were right.
No response.

 

[Iconoclast]

So God dies force us?
So we Are His puppets?

God makes us willing. He makes our self will see His virtue, gives us a new heart with His law in our heart, so we obey quite willingly when enabled by the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

We won't be agreeing on this.
Jesus didn't preach for 3 years to teach man how to enter into the Kingdom, if, in the end, God Father would end up choosing the saved.
Why so much preaching then?

Why so much writing to us in the NT if it will be of no effect?



Oh.
It can't come from me having been Catholic and knowing about Augustine?
It can't be from studying christian history?
It can't be from reading Ken Wilson's book on him?

Is the web all there is these days?
Is this how YOU learned your faith?


That's OK.
John Calvin mentions Augustine in his writings ad nauseam. I hope you know that the confessions are based on Calvin's teachings.



Please list 2 or 3 lies and give the source.
From the web, of course,


What does this have to do with anything?
You said you learned the bible on your own.
So others cannot?
Only because they don't agree with you?
But you're right.
Calvinism must be indoctrinated.


The ECFs did NOT lead to an apostate church.
This is one of the most incorrect statements I've heard.

Maybe YOU don't make God responsible for man's sins, but calvinism does, defacto.
I've posted Piper and MacArthur stating this.

You posted your misunderstanding of what they said. Piper does not speak for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

God makes us willing. He makes our self will see His virtue, gives us a new heart with His law in our heart, so we obey quite willingly when enabled by the Spirit.

No Icon,
Every Christian believes God changes our heart.

YOU said :
GOD MAKES US WILLING
HE MAKES OUR SELF WILL....

So how is that a person being quite willing if God makes them willing?

I'm not sure you're reformed...

 

[Iconoclast]

No Icon,
Every Christian believes God changes our heart.

YOU said :
GOD MAKES US WILLING
HE MAKES OUR SELF WILL....

So how is that a person being quite willing if God makes them willing?

I'm not sure you're reformed...

No everyone does not believe it. God does not change our heart, He does a heart transplant.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Notice God is the one who does it...it happens by the Spirit.
I am a Reformed baptist, I am now posting threads that are the biblical teaching accurately taught. Most of the non cals will not be able to endure the teaching. They will read and learn, or avoid it like the plague.

 

[GodsGrace]

No everyone does not believe it. God does not change our heart, He does a heart transplant.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Notice God is the one who does it...it happens by the Spirit.
I am a Reformed baptist, I am now posting threads that are the biblical teaching accurately taught. Most of the non cals will not be able to endure the teaching. They will read and learn, or avoid it like the plague.

God does the work on us.
Every christian believes this.
On our own We Can Do NOTHING.
Jesus said this and He does not lie.
John 15.

Everything happens by the spirit.

The non cals do not endure the teaching.
Not because they're weak, or dumb, or too sweet and naive,
But because the cals are misreading scripture, depending on gnostic teachings, and are changing the very nature of God.

It really is a different gospel.
There is no good news in reformed theology.

Except for those God chose for salvation, of course.

 

[Iconoclast]

God does the work on us.
Every christian believes this.

No they do not.

On our own We Can Do NOTHING.
Jesus said this and He does not lie.
John 15.

Everything happens by the spirit.

If you believed that you would agree with the teaching, but you do not.

The non cals do not endure the teaching.

Because God has not allowed them to yet.

But because the cals are misreading scripture, depending on gnostic teachings, and are changing the very nature of God.

Falsehood...show a cal post gnostisc teaching? Not sure you know what it is.

It really is a different gospel.
There is no good news in reformed theology.

The reformed teach the gospel of the Kingdom, others seem to be outside until God let's them in.

Except for those God chose for salvation, of course.

Do you mean the elect? It is okay, you can say elect.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Request to Forum Ambassador to define FREE WILL and questions of DEPRAVITY
Their answer:

You were right.
No response.

You preach FREE WILL, but you can't even define it. Given your position as CF Ambassador that's pretty sad.

Note to casual readers: the central anti-christian doctrine of FREE WILL cannot be explained by its adherents in this thread beyond: "It's a choice".

1 Peter 3:15 Always be ready to give a [logical] defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope and confident assurance [elicited by faith] that is within you, yet [do it] with gentleness and respect. [AMP]

.... this is sad