Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Iconoclast]

Icon, do you think I post what I don't believe?

Everyone posts based on what they believe to be true. No one posts, thinking hey watch me I am going to post error.

The only statements above that you make that are not in line with mainline Christianity is
1. GOD HAS NOT ALLOWED THEM IN YET. (to the Kingdom)

Once again you make a judgment. It is wrong again. Jesus taught this, so In my estimation that is mainline Christianity. I just believe what I read. You seem totally unaware of such texts, but you are quick to make such pronouncements.
mt13;
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Reformed Christians see and hear by God's grace. In time many others will see it also.

Doesn't this go against God wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him?
1 Timothy 2:4

No, not at all. God does not want every person ever born to be saved. He never has, or they would be. I went over this days ago. You rejected it.
You have a scenerio that God wants to save everyone...but He fails. He does not save them all.
Reformed people realize that God seeks and saves all he intends to save worldwide.
The children that are given to Him are going to be saved, not one will be lost. 2pet3:9

Romans 1:19-20

Wrong here also. That verse says men know there is a God who they are responsible to at judgment, it does zero to explain salvation. Romans 1 condemns all, saves no one.

If you think I don't know what gnosticism is, OK.

You accuse reformed people because you are listening to idiots like Jesse morrel, Leighton Flowers, Kevin Thompson,and the others. I have already listened to them and answered them for several years, so do not post this junk as if it is some new knowledge.
We know all about them.
You will find me contacting them on their little YouTube messages if you look.

I guess you're the only one who knows so much

I am still learning each day. I have made it my business to know what I am talking about on these things. You can suggest otherwise as if I am not a Calvinist and everything else you want to say, but the truth is you do not know what reformed teaching is. You keep repeating

Get the book by Ken Wilson on Augustine. Can't remember what it's called right now.
Augustine was a manecaen for 10 years before he became Christian.

We know all about it. All the reformed men know all the real history.
You cannot show any gnostic teaching from todays reformed men

Why do you think he changed his mind about a few things while being in the CC?
Jesse Morrell is also an expert.
Will you watch??

I already have.

 

[atpollard]

What IS justice ?

• Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
• Just: being what is merited (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

Justice is God punishing the guilty for their guilt.
Justice is God withholding punishment from the innocent.

John 8:7 [NKJV] So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

• Who is without sin?
• Who is not guilty?
• Who deserves no punishment under a just judgement?

You speak of “Justice”, but unless you think any man is sinless, it is not JUSTICE that you really desire … it is universal mercy.

Does God owe all sinners universal mercy?
Has God no right to send anyone to HELL?
(these are really the “questions behind your question”)

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am still learning each day. I have made it my business to know what I am talking about on these things. You can suggest otherwise as if I am not a Calvinist and everything else you want to say, but the truth is you do not know what reformed teaching is. You keep repeating

... and all those knowledgeable of Reform doctrine said, "AMEN". She gets so much wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

... and all those knowledgeable of Reform doctrine said, "AMEN". She gets so much wrong.

Most every board I have seen does the same thing. The non Cals offer six verses over and over, We answer, then they cannot, so they attack or try and silence us.

 

[atpollard]

I don't understand how you could get that God chooses whom He chooses from scripture, but OK.

Scripture is the story of God choosing people.

• God chose Noah, Noah did not choose God.
• God chose Abram and commanded him to leave his home (God did not ”ask” or “invite”).
• God chose Isaac over Ishmael when Abraham and Sarah tried to convince God otherwise.
• God chose Jacob over Esau before the twins were born.
• God chose Joseph as a boy and marked him for God’s purpose (contrary to the desires of Joseph who did NOT want to be sold, enslaved, imprisoned and raised in a foreign country.)
• God chose Moses … the burning bush did not give him a choice … Moses tried to refuse and God rejected his excuses.
• God chose Jonah, Jonah literally RAN AWAY and God violently dragged him back.
• God chose David … again, Samuel anointed and announced what God had decided without any long discussion about what David wanted.
• ”You did not choose me, but I chose you” … Jesus chose the Apostles.
• Saul was on his way to kill Christians when Jesus chose Paul … there was no “invitation”, just an announcement from God that Paul had been chosen and instructions about what Paul was going to do.

What you don’t see are the people that tell God “no.”

God finishes what He starts - IF we allow Him. This goes to free will which I accept. God will never force us to do anything we don't want to do.

Tell that to Jonah as he headed to Nineveh or Moses as he returned to Egypt or Joseph as he was being carted off to prison or Saul as he was headed off to arrest Christians in Damascus.

I agree with individual soul liberty IF I've understood what it means.
Not sure.

Baptists have had a long-term determination to adhere to the Biblical doctrine that they call "Individual Soul Liberty."​

Church history verifies that Christians have died for this principle. The teaching that individuals are sovereign in matters of faith is one that Baptists will not compromise.​

The individual soul is answerable to Almighty God and to Him alone. This precludes giving up that independency to a pope, a priest, a system, an organization, a convention, a fellowship, an association, or any other human being. None of these are given the authority to interpose anything whatsoever between the individual believer and God concerning any matter of faith.​

A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination or to choose no religious belief system and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. Furthermore, a person may change his/her mind at any time.​

​

http://www.allaboutbaptists.com/distinctives_Individual_Liberty.html​

 

[Fastfredy0]

Most every board I have seen does the same thing. The non Cals offer six verses over and over, We answer, then they cannot, so they attack or try and silence us.

Well, they have so much less ammo and less truth on their side. Sometimes I help them out and give the only 4 verses I know that implicitly support their side ....John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6

Then there is a lame verses like... choose you this day....where they assume that means they have the self-determining power to choose when such verses don't tell us who the cause of our choice is.

Then you have to be free to be responsible and God would be evil if we weren't allowed to do so and so

Plus distortions .... someone on here likes to distort reform theology....conclude we don't think God is JUST and Merciful.

Maybe one of us should go on their side to help out? *giggle*

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I will say this … I have been to a few churches where overturning tables and driving out the merchants so people could worship might not be a TERRIBLE idea.

Today its the book authors and musicians peddling their wares.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Scripture is the story of God choosing people.

• God chose Noah, Noah did not choose God.
• God chose Abram and commanded him to leave his home (God did not ”ask” or “invite”).
• God chose Isaac over Ishmael when Abraham and Sarah tried to convince God otherwise.
• God chose Jacob over Esau before the twins were born.
• God chose Joseph as a boy and marked him for God’s purpose (contrary to the desires of Joseph who did NOT want to be sold, enslaved, imprisoned and raised in a foreign country.)
• God chose Moses … the burning bush did not give him a choice … Moses tried to refuse and God rejected his excuses.
• God chose Jonah, Jonah literally RAN AWAY and God violently dragged him back.
• God chose David … again, Samuel anointed and announced what God had decided without any long discussion about what David wanted.
• ”You did not choose me, but I chose you” … Jesus chose the Apostles.
• Saul was on his way to kill Christians when Jesus chose Paul … there was no “invitation”, just an announcement from God that Paul had been chosen and instructions about what Paul was going to do.

What you don’t see are the people that tell God “no.”



Tell that to Jonah as he headed to Nineveh or Moses as he returned to Egypt or Joseph as he was being carted off to prison or Saul as he was headed off to arrest Christians in Damascus.

Baptists have had a long-term determination to adhere to the Biblical doctrine that they call "Individual Soul Liberty."​

Church history verifies that Christians have died for this principle. The teaching that individuals are sovereign in matters of faith is one that Baptists will not compromise.​

The individual soul is answerable to Almighty God and to Him alone. This precludes giving up that independency to a pope, a priest, a system, an organization, a convention, a fellowship, an association, or any other human being. None of these are given the authority to interpose anything whatsoever between the individual believer and God concerning any matter of faith.​

A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination or to choose no religious belief system and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. Furthermore, a person may change his/her mind at any time.​

​

http://www.allaboutbaptists.com/distinctives_Individual_Liberty.html​

The 70 Jesus “chose” (since God does all the choosing to you) to follow him, left. He didn’t call them back.

The problem in all your scriptures is this. There is no reason to assume that because God chooses some men FOR A PARTICULAR TASK and not for their salvation, that he decides who goes to Heaven. A general can decide who is sent on a mission, but he doesn’t therefore decide who they marry.

Scripture is not at all the story of a capricious Being choosing some lucky ones. Anyone who believes this has misses the whole purpose. It is the story of God wanting to walk with all men and teaching them to walk with each other. Micah 6:8 says it all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Read Romans 1 starting at 18 and count how many times “God gave them over” to sin … each time releasing them to follow their desire and to commit ever greater depravity.

Do you miss WHY He has done so and the fact that this is UNUSUAL? Do you assume he is restraining us from sinning? He’s doing a very poor job in that case.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You know that is not true, right.
At what age did you teach your toddler to “sin”?

Toddlers don’t sin but are like those in Heaven. Matt 19:14

No, we work hard as parents to teach our children to share and play nice and think of the feelings of others … because it is NOT naturally within us.

Wasn’t hard work with my kids. They naturally shared and played nice. But I didn’t put them in daycare where they had to fight to survive. I know other kids like that too.

Children naturally snatch the toy they want from another child without anyone needing to teach them that.

No, they don’t. Some might but I know kind and gentle toddlers. Depends upon many factors.

LUST - to see and want - is innate. Empathy is learned.

It cannot be learned. Either it is in a man, which it is, or they shut it off, same as conscience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jacob and Esau … please explain them and why God chose one twin over another before birth. That is the very DEFINITION of partiality, not impartiality.

The “chosen” one had a terribly hard life. The “unchosen” one had a long, peaceful and rich life. God loved each and gave each land. Hmmmm

Chosen for what? To father the line that gave the Messiah. That’s it.

Romans 9:10-13 [NKJV]
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

That was written about the nations, not the men. God loved the man, Esau, and granted him land same as Jacob.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

... and all those knowledgeable of Reform doctrine said, "AMEN". She gets so much wrong.

Interesting that the “wrong” makes sense but the other side has to redefine words and proposes mutually exclusive points generally doing a shuffle not to mention

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Icon, do you think I post what I don't believe?
The only statements above that you make that are not in line with mainline Christianity is
1. GOD HAS NOT ALLOWED THEM IN YET. (to the Kingdom)
Doesn't this go against God wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him?
1 Timothy 2:4
Romans 1:19-20

If you think I don't know what gnosticism is, OK.
I guess you're the only one who knows so much.
Get the book by Ken Wilson on Augustine. Can't remember what it's called right now.
Augustine was a manecaen for 10 years before he became Christian.
Why do you think he changed his mind about a few things while being in the CC?
Jesse Morrell is also an expert.
Will you watch??

Outstanding!!! Thank you so much!!! This gives a clear history of the Gnostic theology than made its way into the church through Augustine and later Calvin. It also explains why those who held this view literally killed those who opposed them, clearly evidence of the Holy Spirit being absent from the development of this doctrine. I knew it had started with Augustine and wasn’t held by the early church, but I hadn’t heard such specific examples of the church father’s writings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Outstanding!!! Thank you so much!!! This gives a clear history of the Gnostic theology than made its way into the church through Augustine and later Calvin. It also explains why those who held this view literally killed those who opposed them, clearly evidence of the Holy Spirit being absent from the development of this doctrine. I knew it had started with Augustine and wasn’t held by the early church, but I hadn’t heard such specific examples of the church father’s writings.

I find that it's important to know what the Apistolic Farhers and the Early Farhers believed.
It was the early church, right after Jesus, before man with all his sins and ideas and politics took over.

 

[GodsGrace]

Outstanding!!! Thank you so much!!! This gives a clear history of the Gnostic theology than made its way into the church through Augustine and later Calvin. It also explains why those who held this view literally killed those who opposed them, clearly evidence of the Holy Spirit being absent from the development of this doctrine. I knew it had started with Augustine and wasn’t held by the early church, but I hadn’t heard such specific examples of the church father’s writings.

A lot of good it does.
Ken Wilson is a world expert on Augustine.
Even HE is not accepted by calvinists.
Even HISTORY is not accepted.
Maybe this goes beyond indoctrination to outright brainwashing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Answer
Jason was into his martial arts .he was not at all into the gospel .he was into zen Buddhism and that garbage and SCi Fi .seeking the former to improve him .

Then one day because he started self destructive choices of law breaking ,a letter came warning I may see jail as my deed was reported to the Vernon parish courthouse.i sought God ought.a week before I was in a church hearing the gospel .it was arminist and pentacostal but it was one of many ways God was softening me as my life sucked then and I was reading the Bible for no reason other then to pass time on breaks.watching church services and seeking God but weirdly unaware the Spirit was drawing me .
Then I prayed .confessing I was a sinner and asking God to forgive me and to be healed of things I dealt with .

I wanted nothing to do with God and then it changed .

You confessed and prayed.
Was that you responding to God?
God reaches out to us.
We respond.
It's called a relationship.
It's why God inspired the bible to be written.
He wants us to know about Him and choose to be close to Him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A lot of good it does.
Ken Wilson is a world expert on Augustine.
Even HE is not accepted by calvinists.
Even HISTORY is not accepted.
Maybe this goes beyond indoctrination to outright brainwashing.

There is a blindness there. Even normal reasoning suffers.

 

[jasonc]

You confessed and prayed.
Was that you responding to God?
God reaches out to us.
We respond.
It's called a relationship.
It's why God inspired the bible to be written.
He wants us to know about Him and choose to be close to Him.

Reached ?I wouldn't call that reaching.

Setting up my conversion by letting My self .you make God sound so soft .
You will serve me to or die isn't a suggestion .

Imagine if Cops worked like that ?

Oh she speeding ,go beg her stop because it hurts my feelings .

No,they pursue you and they use if needed deadly force to stop you if you are that much of a threat .

A correction isn't going to be gentle .yes God isn't like us but in my case he literally overrides my desire by simply letting me self destruct .

I had a choice see prison if I countinued and other things or see it his way.
You make it sound like he doesn't actually draw and know how to make life hard to get us to change .

He didn't let me die ,he didn't let me rob or commit larceny to gain money and get rich in that scheming .

I have never heard anyone say they wanted to serve Jesus ,just that God changed them by letting them see how hard life was because if their choices .

He does that .I was a jw .in no way would I have gone to church on my own .it's a miracle I enlisted !

They don't own guns,vote or college.

Sometimes one has to be rough handled to be corrected

Women don't experience this .boys get us ,or should when they act stupid from their dad .oh you like doing that ? Come here .were going to have some physical training .boys cries.now then was that wrong ,life will suck more and more if you do that

I'm not talking abuse but that wrestling and or as I did it but not making Nathan cry .long walking with weights to make him strong .death marches .that boy was 12.at 22 I took him on that and he still mentioned that to me.the other times it was for fun .a six mile walk with 30 lbs on his back and about 50 for me .

God is creator ,and also not a democracy .you don't vote on what he does but yield to his way.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God is creator ,and also not a democracy .you don't vote on what he does but yield to his way.

Or you refuse to yield to his way. The choice is always ours.

 

[jasonc]

Reached ?I wouldn't call that reaching.

Setting up my conversion by letting My self .you make God sound so soft .
You will serve me to or die isn't a suggestion .

Imagine if Cops worked like that ?

Oh she speeding ,go beg her stop because it hurts my feelings .

No,they pursue you and they use if needed deadly force to stop you if you are that much of a threat .

A correction isn't going to be gentle .yes God isn't like us but in my case he literally overrides my desire by simply letting me self destruct .

I had a choice see prison if I countinued and other things or see it his way.
You make it sound like he doesn't actually draw and know how to make life hard to get us to change .

He didn't let me die ,he didn't let me rob or commit larceny to gain money and get rich in that scheming .

I have never heard anyone say they wanted to serve Jesus ,just that God changed them by letting them see how hard life was because if their choices .

He does that .I was a jw .in no way would I have gone to church on my own .it's a miracle I enlisted !

They don't own guns,vote or college.

Sometimes one has to be rough handled to be corrected

Women don't experience this .boys get us ,or should when they act stupid from their dad .oh you like doing that ? Come here .were going to have some physical training .boys cries.now then was that wrong ,life will suck more and more if you do that

I'm not talking abuse but that wrestling and or as I did it but not making Nathan cry .long walking with weights to make him strong .death marches .that boy was 12.at 22 I took him on that and he still mentioned that to me.the other times it was for fun .a six mile walk with 30 lbs on his back and about 50 for me .

God is creator ,and also not a democracy .you don't vote on what he does but yield to his way.

I will add this God knows us and how we react and how to to change us .

I'm retired military there is no oh it's in the army and the officers ask .they order and you obey. I still see officers and ncos and will have a tinge of that fear if they are mad of over someone else doing something wrong.that is from basic training where they break you and remake you into a soldier .

God will do that and he did that to me .