Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Dorothy Mae]

I will add this God knows us and how we react and how to to change us .

Except He doesn’t violate free will.

I'm retired military there is no oh it's in the army and the officers ask .they order and you obey. I still see officers and ncos and will have a tinge of that fear if they are mad of over someone else doing something wrong.that is from basic training where they break you and remake you into a soldier .

But they don’t tell you who to marry. There are areas in which they have no say. God respects those areas too.

God will do that and he did that to me .

He doesn’t violate free will forcing people to choose Him as that is evil. He doesn’t possess. The enemy does. He violates free will as far as he can. It is actually dishonoring to say He manipulated someone into believing.

 

[Niblo]

You blame God for mans sin.
What if "reformed"Christians are the only ones? What if that alone is the biblical teaching?

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

Having examined your reference to Psalm 110:3 (which you offered in answer to my question), I asked:

‘In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’ How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’? (Charles Spurgeon: ‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’).

You replied (Post 377):

‘The natural man who is unwilling, is given a new heart Ezk 36:25-27...this enables him. Many speak of this as being born again.’

You should know that regeneration – ‘new birth’ – comes after repentance and willing obedience; born of faith, never before. Nowhere in Scripture does it say otherwise.

As you know, Ezekiel 36:26 reads:

‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.’

You are aware, of course, that Calvinists offer this verse as proof of total depravity, since it speaks of our hearts being hearts of stone.

There is great peril in ripping verses out of their context.

In Ezekiel, the historical context is Jerusalem’s unfaithfulness in the face of Yahweh’s tender love:

‘The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows, "Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her filthy crimes.

‘Say, 'The Lord Yahweh says this: By origin and birth you belong to the land of Canaan. Your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. At birth, the very day you were born, there was no one to cut your navel string, or wash you in cleansing water, or rub you with salt, or wrap you in napkins. No one leaned kindly over you to do anything like that for you. You were exposed in the open fields; you were as unloved as that on the day you were born. I saw you struggling in your blood as I was passing, and I said to you as you lay in your blood: Live, and grow like the grass of the fields.

‘You developed, you grew, you reached marriageable age. Your breasts and your hair both grew, but you were quite naked.

‘Then I saw you as I was passing. Your time had come, the time for love. I spread part of my cloak over you and covered your nakedness; I bound myself by oath, I made a covenant with you – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and you became mine.’ (Ezekiel 16:1-9; The Jerusalem Bible).

Note: The Beloved binds Himself by oath; by a solemn promise. I hope you will agree that He does not renege on His promises.

But then, comes this:

‘You (Jerusalem) have become infatuated with your own beauty; you have used your fame to make yourself a prostitute; you have offered your services to all comers . . . You have taken your clothes to brighten your high places and there you have played the whore . . .

You have taken my presents of gold and silver jewellery and made yourself human images to use in your whorings. You have taken your embroidered clothes and put them on the images, and the oil and incense which are rightly mine you have offered to them. The bread I gave you, the finest flour, oil and honey with which I used to feed you, you have now offered to them as an appeasing fragrance.

You have even – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – taken the sons and daughters you bore me and sacrificed them as food to the images. Was it not enough for you just to be a whore? You have slaughtered my children and handed them over as a burnt offering to them, and in all your filthy practices and your whorings you have never remembered your youth or the time when you were quite naked and struggling in your own blood.’ (Ezekiel 16:15-22: The Jerusalem Bible).

Then Yahweh declares::

‘Since you have never remembered your youth, since in all this you have done nothing but provoke me, I in my turn intend to bring your conduct down on your own head – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Have you not been disgusting with all your filthy practices?’ (Ezekiel 16:43: The Jerusalem Bible).

Even so, His Covenant is remembered:

‘For the Lord Yahweh says this: I will treat you as you deserve, you who have despised your oath even to the extent of breaking a covenant, but I will remember the covenant that I made with you when you were a girl, and I will conclude a covenant with you that shall last for ever.

‘And you for your part will remember your past behaviour and be covered with shame when I take your elder and younger sisters and make them your daughters, although this was not included in this covenant. I am going to renew my covenant with you; and you will learn that I am Yahweh, and so remember and be covered with shame, and in your confusion be reduced to silence, when I have pardoned you for all that you have done – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.' (Ezekiel 16:59-63: The Jerusalem Bible).

Charles Spurgeon writes:

‘In this very remarkable chapter, God describes his ancient people Israel under the figure of an infant which had been cast away, but which he had cared for and tended, and upon which he had lavished much love, making it the object of his choice, on which his very heart was set. Yet this specially-favored one had gone astray, and committed all manner of wickedness; but for all that, the love of God had not been withdrawn. The whole chapter is a graphic picture of the way in which Israel and Judah went after false gods, and forsook the only living and true God.’ (‘Spurgeon's Commentary On The Bible’; my emphasis).

Continued:

 

[Niblo]

In Ezekiel 33 we read (my emphases):

‘Son of man, say to the House of Israel, 'You are continually saying: Our sins and crimes weigh heavily on us; we are wasting away because of them. How are we to go on living?'

‘Say to them, 'As I live – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks –! I take pleasure, not in the death of a wicked man, but in the turning back of a wicked man who changes his ways to win life.

‘Come back, come back from your evil ways. Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel?

‘And you, son of man, say to the members of your nation, 'The integrity of an upright man will not save him once he has chosen to sin; the wickedness of a wicked man will no longer condemn him once he renounces wickedness, nor will an upright man live on the strength of his integrity once he has chosen to sin. If I say to an upright man: You are to live, and then, trusting in his own integrity, he turns to evil, all his integrity will no longer be remembered; because he has sinned, he shall die.

‘If, however, I say to a wicked man: You are to die, and he renounces his sins and does what is lawful and right, if he returns pledges, restores what he has stolen, keeps the laws that give life and stops committing sin – he shall live, and will not die. All his previous sins will no longer be remembered – he has done what is lawful and right; he shall live.’ (Verses 10-16: The Jerusalem Bible).

These verses mirror those of Chapter 18:21-32 (my emphases), in which Yahweh says:

‘But if the wicked man renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and honest, he will certainly live; he will not die. All the sins he committed will be forgotten from then on; he shall live because of the integrity he has practiced. What! Am I likely to take pleasure in the death of a wicked man – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?

‘But if the upright man renounces his integrity, commits sin, copies the wicked man and practices every kind of filth, is he to live? All the integrity he has practiced shall be forgotten from then on; but this is because he himself has broken faith and committed sin, and for this he shall die. ·

‘But you object, 'What the Lord does is unjust.'

‘Listen, you House of Israel: is what I do unjust? Is it not what you do that is unjust? ·

‘When the upright man renounces his integrity to commit sin and dies because of this, he dies because of the evil that he himself has committed.

‘When the sinner renounces sin to become law-abiding and honest, he deserves to live. He has chosen to renounce all his previous sins; he shall certainly live; he shall not die. ·

‘And yet the House of Israel objects, 'What the Lord does is unjust.'

‘Is what I do unjust, you House of Israel? Is it not what you do that is unjust? ·

‘House of Israel, in future I mean to judge each of you by what he does – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.

‘Repent, renounce all your sins, avoid all occasions of sin! Shake off all the sins you have committed against me, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel?

‘I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.’

‘Repent and live!’ (Jerusalem Bible’).

Either the Beloved has no knowledge of total depravity; or else He is a tease..

Gil VanOrder writes (my emphasis):

‘Even worse, God has the audacity to claim He really doesn’t want anyone to perish, but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), knowing full well He has made that impossible. He tells us to seek Him, repent of our sins, trust Him, and accept His offer of salvation for the remission of our sins, knowing we can’t because He took from us any desire for such things. Calvinism’s God is more than just a tease, He is a cruel monster.’ (‘Reformed Theology's Deformed Exegesis’).

Agreed.

Blessings.

 

[jasonc]

In Post 148 I asked:

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

Having examined your reference to Psalm 110:3 (which you offered in answer to my question), I asked:

‘In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’ How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’? (Charles Spurgeon: ‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’).

You replied (Post 377):

‘The natural man who is unwilling, is given a new heart Ezk 36:25-27...this enables him. Many speak of this as being born again.’

You should know that regeneration – ‘new birth’ – comes after repentance and willing obedience; born of faith, never before. Nowhere in Scripture does it say otherwise.

As you know, Ezekiel 36:26 reads:

‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.’

You are aware, of course, that Calvinists offer this verse as proof of total depravity, since it speaks of our hearts being hearts of stone.

There is great peril in ripping verses out of their context.

In Ezekiel, the historical context is Jerusalem’s unfaithfulness in the face of Yahweh’s tender love:

‘The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows, "Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her filthy crimes.

‘Say, 'The Lord Yahweh says this: By origin and birth you belong to the land of Canaan. Your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. At birth, the very day you were born, there was no one to cut your navel string, or wash you in cleansing water, or rub you with salt, or wrap you in napkins. No one leaned kindly over you to do anything like that for you. You were exposed in the open fields; you were as unloved as that on the day you were born. I saw you struggling in your blood as I was passing, and I said to you as you lay in your blood: Live, and grow like the grass of the fields.

‘You developed, you grew, you reached marriageable age. Your breasts and your hair both grew, but you were quite naked.

‘Then I saw you as I was passing. Your time had come, the time for love. I spread part of my cloak over you and covered your nakedness; I bound myself by oath, I made a covenant with you – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and you became mine.’ (Ezekiel 16:1-9; The Jerusalem Bible).

Note: The Beloved binds Himself by oath; by a solemn promise. I hope you will agree that He does not renege on His promises.

But then, comes this:

‘You (Jerusalem) have become infatuated with your own beauty; you have used your fame to make yourself a prostitute; you have offered your services to all comers . . . You have taken your clothes to brighten your high places and there you have played the whore . . .

You have taken my presents of gold and silver jewellery and made yourself human images to use in your whorings. You have taken your embroidered clothes and put them on the images, and the oil and incense which are rightly mine you have offered to them. The bread I gave you, the finest flour, oil and honey with which I used to feed you, you have now offered to them as an appeasing fragrance.

You have even – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – taken the sons and daughters you bore me and sacrificed them as food to the images. Was it not enough for you just to be a whore? You have slaughtered my children and handed them over as a burnt offering to them, and in all your filthy practices and your whorings you have never remembered your youth or the time when you were quite naked and struggling in your own blood.’ (Ezekiel 16:15-22: The Jerusalem Bible).

Then Yahweh declares::

‘Since you have never remembered your youth, since in all this you have done nothing but provoke me, I in my turn intend to bring your conduct down on your own head – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Have you not been disgusting with all your filthy practices?’ (Ezekiel 16:43: The Jerusalem Bible).

Even so, His Covenant is remembered:

‘For the Lord Yahweh says this: I will treat you as you deserve, you who have despised your oath even to the extent of breaking a covenant, but I will remember the covenant that I made with you when you were a girl, and I will conclude a covenant with you that shall last for ever.

‘And you for your part will remember your past behaviour and be covered with shame when I take your elder and younger sisters and make them your daughters, although this was not included in this covenant. I am going to renew my covenant with you; and you will learn that I am Yahweh, and so remember and be covered with shame, and in your confusion be reduced to silence, when I have pardoned you for all that you have done – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.' (Ezekiel 16:59-63: The Jerusalem Bible).

Charles Spurgeon writes:

‘In this very remarkable chapter, God describes his ancient people Israel under the figure of an infant which had been cast away, but which he had cared for and tended, and upon which he had lavished much love, making it the object of his choice, on which his very heart was set. Yet this specially-favored one had gone astray, and committed all manner of wickedness; but for all that, the love of God had not been withdrawn. The whole chapter is a graphic picture of the way in which Israel and Judah went after false gods, and forsook the only living and true God.’ (‘Spurgeon's Commentary On The Bible’; my emphasis).

Continued:

You do know that spurgeon is a Calvinist .

Five points and all

 

[jasonc]

C.H. Spurgeon on Total Depravity | ReasonableTheology.org

Spurgeon did not shy away from the doctrine of Total Depravity, which states that man is entirely corrupted by sin. Here are his words regarding this truth.

reasonabletheology.org

 

[Iconoclast]

The 70 Jesus “chose” (since God does all the choosing to you) to follow him, left. He didn’t call them back.

The problem in all your scriptures is this. There is no reason to assume that because God chooses some men FOR A PARTICULAR TASK and not for their salvation, that he decides who goes to Heaven. A general can decide who is sent on a mission, but he doesn’t therefore decide who they marry.

Scripture is not at all the story of a capricious Being choosing some lucky ones. Anyone who believes this has misses the whole purpose. It is the story of God wanting to walk with all men and teaching them to walk with each other. Micah 6:8 says it all.

God chose the nation of Israel but then elected individuals out of the nation.rom9:6 for salvation.
Romans 9 is about individuals, not a re quote from malachi about nations...how foolish when people try to use that,

 

[electedbyHim]

Toddlers don’t sin but are like those in Heaven. Matt 19:14

Wasn’t hard work with my kids. They naturally shared and played nice. But I didn’t put them in daycare where they had to fight to survive. I know other kids like that too.

No, they don’t. Some might but I know kind and gentle toddlers. Depends upon many factors.

It cannot be learned. Either it is in a man, which it is, or they shut it off, same as conscience.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

This does not speak of David's mother as many would like to believe.

 

[Niblo]

You do know that spurgeon is a Calvinist .

Five points and all.

Yes.

I write, in Post 370:

Charles Spurgeon – who writes: ‘I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.’ (‘Charles Spurgeon Autobiography (2 Volume Set).

I don't have to agree with my sources in order to use them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Once again you make a judgment. It is wrong again. Jesus taught this, so In my estimation that is mainline Christianity. I just believe what I read. You seem totally unaware of such texts, but you are quick to make such pronouncements.
mt13;
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Reformed Christians see and hear by God's grace. In time many others will see it also.

I've replied to each and every one of your verses.
I won't be doing that anymore since you then totally dismiss what I post and go on to other ideas.
Regarding the above, I'll only say this.
There's more than one reason why Jesus spoke in parables.....
One of them is NOT let some person into the Kingdom and to not allow others in.
One of the reasons is found in Matthew 21:45 -- but there are a few others.

At the wedding feast the Jews were invited, but they had other things to do.
Verse 6 tells us that the slaves sent to get the Jews were murdered, as had been other Messiahs that had come along in Jewish history.

So the King invited everyone on the highways and invited everyone as could be found.
These would be the Gentiles.

And everyone stayed at the dinner EXCEPT the one that was not properly dressed...
And he was sent out.

But there was a REASON why he was sent out...
He was not properly dressed.
GOD IS ALWAYS JUST.

No, not at all. God does not want every person ever born to be saved. He never has, or they would be. I went over this days ago. You rejected it.
You have a scenerio that God wants to save everyone...but He fails. He does not save them all.

It's not MY scenario.
It's the scenario of the NT and of every Christian on this board, except, of course, for calvinists.
It's rejected because it's not biblically correct.
GOD LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD.
John 3:16
GOD IS LOVE.
1 John 4:8
LOVE YOUR ENEMIES SO YOU COULD BE LIKE YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. WE ARE MADE IN HIS IMAGE...
Matthew 5:43
THE LORD IS PATIENT, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH.
2 Peter 3:9
GOD SHOW NO PARTIALITY. EVERYONE WHO FEARS HIM AND LOVES HIM IS ACCEPTED BY GOD.
Acts 10:34

and plenty more...

Reformed people realize that God seeks and saves all he intends to save worldwide.
The children that are given to Him are going to be saved, not one will be lost. 2pet3:9

2 Peter 3:9 is speaking about persons that have not been saved yet.
Not those that are saved already.
God does not wish any to perish.
Your predestination beliefs do not allow you to accept what scripture is plainly saying.
GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.
GOD DOES NOT WISH THAT ANY PERISH.
BUT THAT ALL COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
John 3:16
1 Timothy 2:4

The bible must agree with the bible.

Wrong here also. That verse says men know there is a God who they are responsible to at judgment, it does zero to explain salvation. Romans 1 condemns all, saves no one.

Romans 1 states that man has always had the innate knowledge of God and thus we remain without excuse if we do not come to believe in Him.

It's plain as day...
Calvinism clouds the mind.

Romans 1:5
Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship [e]to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of His name,

Paul is speaking to ALL Gentiles...

Romans 1:13-15
13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also just as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14I am https://biblehub.com/nasb_/romans/1.htm#fnunder obligation both to Greeks and to the [j]uncultured, both to the wise and to the foolish.
15So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.


Looks like Paul is for free will.
He PLANNED to go to Rome but was prevented.
He was EAGER to PREACH THE GOSPEL to all in Rome.

If he believed in predestination, he would have understood that preaching had its limits since God would pick who He would pick.

You accuse reformed people because you are listening to idiots like Jesse morrel, Leighton Flowers, Kevin Thompson,and the others. I have already listened to them and answered them for several years, so do not post this junk as if it is some new knowledge.

Jesse Morrel is an idiot?
Kevin Thompson, the world expert on Augustine, is an idiot?

This is not junk but history, and correct history.

You see, Icon, you and those that believe as you do are the only ones that can call such persons idiots.
(just because they don't agree with you).
Could you post someone of the same intellect that teaches that Augustine was NOT a gnostic manechaen for 10 years?
Certainly not.
Because he was.

I am still learning each day. I have made it my business to know what I am talking about on these things. You can suggest otherwise as if I am not a Calvinist and everything else you want to say, but the truth is you do not know what reformed teaching is. You keep repeating

I can safely say that I know calvinism more than you do.
You soften it over because the truth is difficult to take.
I don't need to sugar coat it because I know it's a gnostic belief system and have shown why.

 

[GodsGrace]

• Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
• Just: being what is merited (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

Justice is God punishing the guilty for their guilt.
Justice is God withholding punishment from the innocent.

Agreed.
Justice means giving to each one what they deserve.
The guilty should be punished.
The innocent should not be punished.

This does not work well with an eeny meeny miny moe type selection of persons,
as John Calvin taught in 3/21/5.

John 8:7 [NKJV] So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

• Who is without sin?
• Who is not guilty?
• Who deserves no punishment under a just judgement?

You speak of “Justice”, but unless you think any man is sinless, it is not JUSTICE that you really desire … it is universal mercy.

God IS universally merciful.
This is one of His many attributes.
Love and Justice are 2 others.
If everyone is guilty, and God is just,
then EVERYONE should be damned.
Not just some.
This shows God to be UNJUST and partial...
and we're taught that God is IMPARTIAL.


Acts 10:34
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


Romans 2:11
For there is no impartiality with God.

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality..

God is indeed a just God.

Does God owe all sinners universal mercy?
Has God no right to send anyone to HELL?
(these are really the “questions behind your question”)

God has made Himself be known to be impartial.

I think this is what we should learn about Him.

John Calvin did not portray an impartial God.
But an unjust and unloving and unmerciful God.

 

[Iconoclast]

In Post 148 I asked:

Hello Thanks for your response.

‘Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?’

Having examined your reference to Psalm 110:3 (which you offered in answer to my question), I asked:

‘In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’ How can this be true, when there are those who are ‘willing to be weaned from their own thoughts and purposes, that the thoughts and purposes of God may be fulfilled in them’? (Charles Spurgeon: ‘The Treasury of David IX Psalms 101-110’).

I am glad you have the treasury of David. I enjoy that as well. I also have New Park Street Pulpit, and the complete Metropolitan Tabernacle. CHS used Keach's Catechism

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They were Reformed Baptists as I am using the 1689 confession of faith.
CHS believed all five points and In a sermon said Calvinism is the gospel and then showed how it is.

Notice at the end of verse 2 he quotes Albert Barnes declaring how the kingdom is set up by subduing His enemies , not destroying them. Then he says "thy people",those whom thou dost receive from the Father...and then the fine quote from describing how they Edward Reynolds how rebellious sinners become most willinging to Jesus. He mentions particular redemption in verse 3.
Perhaps you forgot that portion but read it slow.
Look Niblo... I had to work through some of this years ago, but I have found nothing to change my mind. There are godly persons who have lived and not seen all five points, J.C.Ryle, and Richard Baxter come to mind.
Take your time, it looks as if you already study a good deal. Ask your best questions, and offer your best objections and links. We both want truth...it is not a game we win, or lose, but a search for truth.

You replied (Post 377):

‘The natural man who is unwilling, is given a new heart Ezk 36:25-27...this enables him. Many speak of this as being born again.’

You should know that regeneration – ‘new birth’ – comes after repentance and willing obedience; born of faith, never before. Nowhere in Scripture does it say otherwise.

All happen at one point in time.It is not a piece , by piece thing, although we grow in grace. It is simultaneous.
Dead men do not do anything, they need life to come to Jesus most willingly.

As you know, Ezekiel 36:26 reads:

‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.’

You are aware, of course, that Calvinists offer this verse as proof of total depravity, since it speaks of our hearts being hearts of stone.

There is great peril in ripping verses out of their context.

It is not ripped out of context, rather it is used and set forth as a promise. Israel is often used both historically, and as a type as in EX.4:22

In Ezekiel, the historical context is Jerusalem’s unfaithfulness in the face of Yahweh’s tender love:

correct, agreed, as was most of the OT. backdrop, pointing to the coming of the Lord in the New Exodus.

‘The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows, "Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her filthy crimes.

‘Say, 'The Lord Yahweh says this: By origin and birth you belong to the land of Canaan. Your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. At birth, the very day you were born, there was no one to cut your navel string, or wash you in cleansing water, or rub you with salt, or wrap you in napkins. No one leaned kindly over you to do anything like that for you. You were exposed in the open fields; you were as unloved as that on the day you were born. I saw you struggling in your blood as I was passing, and I said to you as you lay in your blood: Live, and grow like the grass of the fields.

‘You developed, you grew, you reached marriageable age. Your breasts and your hair both grew, but you were quite naked.

‘Then I saw you as I was passing. Your time had come, the time for love. I spread part of my cloak over you and covered your nakedness; I bound myself by oath, I made a covenant with you – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and you became mine.’ (Ezekiel 16:1-9; The Jerusalem Bible).

Yes...Ezkiels infant a picture of our depravity and helplessness. The oath was in reality made in eternity past.

Note: The Beloved binds Himself by oath; by a solemn promise. I hope you will agree that He does not renege on His promises.

of course. God is a covenant making Covenant keeping God.

But then, comes this:

‘You (Jerusalem) have become infatuated with your own beauty; you have used your fame to make yourself a prostitute; you have offered your services to all comers . . . You have taken your clothes to brighten your high places and there you have played the whore . . .

You have taken my presents of gold and silver jewellery and made yourself human images to use in your whorings. You have taken your embroidered clothes and put them on the images, and the oil and incense which are rightly mine you have offered to them. The bread I gave you, the finest flour, oil and honey with which I used to feed you, you have now offered to them as an appeasing fragrance.

You have even – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – taken the sons and daughters you bore me and sacrificed them as food to the images. Was it not enough for you just to be a whore? You have slaughtered my children and handed them over as a burnt offering to them, and in all your filthy practices and your whorings you have never remembered your youth or the time when you were quite naked and struggling in your own blood.’ (Ezekiel 16:15-22: The Jerusalem Bible).

Then Yahweh declares::

‘Since you have never remembered your youth, since in all this you have done nothing but provoke me, I in my turn intend to bring your conduct down on your own head – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Have you not been disgusting with all your filthy practices?’ (Ezekiel 16:43: The Jerusalem Bible).

yes indeed.

Even so, His Covenant is remembered:

‘For the Lord Yahweh says this: I will treat you as you deserve, you who have despised your oath even to the extent of breaking a covenant, but I will remember the covenant that I made with you when you were a girl, and I will conclude a covenant with you that shall last for ever.

‘And you for your part will remember your past behaviour and be covered with shame when I take your elder and younger sisters and make them your daughters, although this was not included in this covenant. I am going to renew my covenant with you; and you will learn that I am Yahweh, and so remember and be covered with shame, and in your confusion be reduced to silence, when I have pardoned you for all that you have done – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.' (Ezekiel 16:59-63: The Jerusalem Bible).

Charles Spurgeon writes:

‘In this very remarkable chapter, God describes his ancient people Israel under the figure of an infant which had been cast away, but which he had cared for and tended, and upon which he had lavished much love, making it the object of his choice, on which his very heart was set. Yet this specially-favored one had gone astray, and committed all manner of wickedness; but for all that, the love of God had not been withdrawn. The whole chapter is a graphic picture of the way in which Israel and Judah went after false gods, and forsook the only living and true God.’ (‘Spurgeon's Commentary On The Bible’; my emphasis).

Continued:

yes...compare psalm 89.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture is the story of God choosing people.

• God chose Noah, Noah did not choose God.
• God chose Abram and commanded him to leave his home (God did not ”ask” or “invite”).
• God chose Isaac over Ishmael when Abraham and Sarah tried to convince God otherwise.
• God chose Jacob over Esau before the twins were born.
• God chose Joseph as a boy and marked him for God’s purpose (contrary to the desires of Joseph who did NOT want to be sold, enslaved, imprisoned and raised in a foreign country.)
• God chose Moses … the burning bush did not give him a choice … Moses tried to refuse and God rejected his excuses.
• God chose Jonah, Jonah literally RAN AWAY and God violently dragged him back.
• God chose David … again, Samuel anointed and announced what God had decided without any long discussion about what David wanted.
• ”You did not choose me, but I chose you” … Jesus chose the Apostles.
• Saul was on his way to kill Christians when Jesus chose Paul … there was no “invitation”, just an announcement from God that Paul had been chosen and instructions about what Paul was going to do.

What you don’t see are the people that tell God “no.”

The above were chosen by God for specific purposes.
God chooses for PURPOSE, you forgot about Mary, the Mother of our Savior.
God chose HER too.

But we are billions, and they are so few.
The bible speaks to the billions, using those few.

The bible is not about how God chose SOME persons for special tasks,
It is not the story of God choosing people...
all the persons and stories you quoted are for reasons, and not to show that God chooses people.

The bible is the story of how God revealed Himself to mankind and how we are to relate to Him
and have a relationship with Him.

Tell that to Jonah as he headed to Nineveh or Moses as he returned to Egypt or Joseph as he was being carted off to prison or Saul as he was headed off to arrest Christians in Damascus.

Answered.

Baptists have had a long-term determination to adhere to the Biblical doctrine that they call "Individual Soul Liberty."​

Church history verifies that Christians have died for this principle. The teaching that individuals are sovereign in matters of faith is one that Baptists will not compromise.​

The individual soul is answerable to Almighty God and to Him alone. This precludes giving up that independency to a pope, a priest, a system, an organization, a convention, a fellowship, an association, or any other human being. None of these are given the authority to interpose anything whatsoever between the individual believer and God concerning any matter of faith.​

Isn't this true in all denominations?
At least, it should be.
God is going to save us - not the Pope or priest, a system, etc.

A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination or to choose no religious belief system and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. Furthermore, a person may change his/her mind at any time.​

​

http://www.allaboutbaptists.com/distinctives_Individual_Liberty.html​

Wow. Yes.
Of course this should be true for everyone!

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptists have had a long-term determination to adhere to the Biblical doctrine that they call "Individual Soul Liberty."​

Church history verifies that Christians have died for this principle. The teaching that individuals are sovereign in matters of faith is one that Baptists will not compromise.​

The individual soul is answerable to Almighty God and to Him alone. This precludes giving up that independency to a pope, a priest, a system, an organization, a convention, a fellowship, an association, or any other human being. None of these are given the authority to interpose anything whatsoever between the individual believer and God concerning any matter of faith.​

A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination or to choose no religious belief system and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. Furthermore, a person may change his/her mind at any time.​

​

http://www.allaboutbaptists.com/distinctives_Individual_Liberty.html​

I read the link.
Very nice and interesting.
I can't really think of a Protestant denomination that does this,
but the CC did back in history, as is noted in the article.

There is a section I have to disagree with:

Under the rule of Constantine, Roman law demanded that all people in the Roman Empire become Christians. The result of this law was forcing Christianity upon the masses by infant baptism and a meaningless profession by adults. Accordingly, the Dark Ages are a testimony to the absolute failure imposed on believers when the "church" begins to dictate whatever "truth" it deems necessary to force all members to conform. Not only is Roman Catholocism guilty of this but so are many of the mainline Protestant denominations.

Constantine did not make Christianity the religion of the land.
He only removed the unlawfulness of it and it was then possible to practice Christianity without persecution.
It was called The Edict of Milan.

It was Theodocius in 380AD that declared Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire.

Also, infant baptism was practiced even immediately after Jesus, but the teachings of Augustine changed the reason as to why babies were baptized. But by about the same time, 380, is when Augustine changed the teaching and so it coincides, by chance, with the reign of Theodocius.

 

[Niblo]

Hello Thanks for your response.

Look Niblo... I had to work through some of this years ago, but I have found nothing to change my mind. There are godly persons who have lived and not seen all five points, J.C.Ryle, and Richard Baxter come to mind.
Take your time, it looks as if you already study a good deal. Ask your best questions, and offer your best objections and links. We both want truth...it is not a game we win, or lose, but a search for truth

Hello there.

I am not looking for a change of mind on your part, simply Scriptural justification for the Calvinist point of view....should you wish to provide it.

With respect, I am not yet convinced - not even anywhere near - that Calvinism is correct. You might well ask - of course - who is Niblo that one should even try to convince him?

Should this be the case....I can but thank you for your time.

Should you wish to continue, I would welcome any justification you may offer.

Blessings.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've replied to each and every one of your verses.
I won't be doing that anymore since you then totally dismiss what I post and go on to other ideas.

You have responded to a certain extent. Some of these responses are somewhat shifty ,redirecting to post about something you are more comfortable with, rather than really responded to what was asked....just sayin

Regarding the above, I'll only say this.
There's more than one reason why Jesus spoke in parables.....
One of them is NOT let some person into the Kingdom and to not allow others in.

That is why I offered it.

One of the reasons is found in Matthew 21:45 -- but there are a few others.

At the wedding feast the Jews were invited, but they had other things to do.
Verse 6 tells us that the slaves sent to get the Jews were murdered, as had been other Messiahs that had come along in Jewish history.

So the King invited everyone on the highways and invited everyone as could be found.
These would be the Gentiles.

And everyone stayed at the dinner EXCEPT the one that was not properly dressed...
And he was sent out.

But there was a REASON why he was sent out...
He was not properly dressed.
GOD IS ALWAYS JUST.

The right garment speaks of God's righteousness...not the fashion police summoned to make sure the dress code was maintained.

It's not MY scenario.
It's the scenario of the NT and of every Christian on this board, except, of course, for calvinists.

Calvinists are believing Christians who see and are not afraid of God and His absolute Sovereignty over all created.
You taking shots and poking us in the eye is only going to provoke us to dismantle your posts as you go off target.

It's rejected because it's not biblically correct.

You reject it, because God has not allowed you to see it yet! We are still hopeful.

GOD LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD.

Yes...He has children all over the world;
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

John 3:16
GOD IS LOVE.

Yes, God so loved the "world" that he destroyed the world of the ungodly with the flood, that he destroyed all the Sodomites in Lot's day..he is Love, he is holy, he is righteous and Just he must punish sin. He hates the workers of iniquity everyday.

1 John 4:8
LOVE YOUR ENEMIES SO YOU COULD BE LIKE YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. WE ARE MADE IN HIS IMAGE...
Matthew 5:43
THE LORD IS PATIENT, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH.
2 Peter 3:9

I explained this in detail weeks ago. You ignore what I offered, so that is on you now. You repeat error because you can do nothing else.

GOD SHOW NO PARTIALITY. EVERYONE WHO FEARS HIM AND LOVES HIM IS ACCEPTED BY GOD.
Acts 10:34

and plenty more...

and no more. God is not partial. All he elected were rebel sinners...

2 Peter 3:9 is speaking about persons that have not been saved yet.

Which is what i explained to you weeks ago, search it out. It is about those who were saved, and others who were not born back then, like those elect who are being drawn to Jesus ,even today.

Not those that are saved already.
God does not wish any to perish.

Not one elect person will perish, their salvation is guaranteed by Jesus, who agreed to this in the Covenant of Redemption , which you deny.
To say God "wishes" to save them, but cannot, is to deny Holy Scripture quite frankly.

Your predestination beliefs do not allow you to accept what scripture is plainly saying.
GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.
GOD DOES NOT WISH THAT ANY PERISH.
BUT THAT ALL COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
John 3:16
1 Timothy 2:4

The bible must agree with the bible.

My biblically consistent belief's stand throughout time. You denials of these truths for falsehood, does not change what happens at all.

Romans 1 states that man has always had the innate knowledge of God and thus we remain without excuse if we do not come to believe in Him.

NO one denies that. We have all explained to you it is not enough to save them.

It's plain as day...
Calvinism clouds the mind.

Calvinism correctly views all the verses.

Romans 1:5
Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship [e]to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of His name,

Paul is speaking to ALL Gentiles...

All gentiles, are not going to obey...this is a foolish idea. millions died the very year Jesus was on the cross. They died in their sins. All gentiles who have ever lived have not even heard the name of Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 1:13-15
13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also just as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14I am https://biblehub.com/nasb_/romans/1.htm#fnunder obligation both to Greeks and to the [j]uncultured, both to the wise and to the foolish.
15So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.


Looks like Paul is for free will.
He PLANNED to go to Rome but was prevented.
He was EAGER to PREACH THE GOSPEL to all in Rome.

If he believed in predestination, he would have understood that preaching had its limits since God would pick who He would pick.

Foolish to say this. Paul primarily taught about the doctrines of grace which reformed persons embraced.
Often he said this to acknowledge he planned many things, but his plans were always subject to God's wilThat you post this just demonstrates your confusion on such teaching. I have started threads on providence, particular redemption,and other topics with ehelpful links for "whosoever will" learn, or everyone willing.

Jesse Morrel is an idiot?
Kevin Thompson, the world expert on Augustine, is an idiot?

I have reacted to this whole posse of fools who do anything to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. If and when they repent i would welcome them into fellowship.

This is not junk but history, and correct history.

You see, Icon, you and those that believe as you do are the only ones that can call such persons idiots.

They are called what they are, as they go directly against the truth of God...scriptures says they are fools.

(just because they don't agree with you).

No, I am okay with people who do not agree with me, if they are sincere. These little posse of theological light weights , insult Godly men living and in history. It is not about me as you insinuate, I am nobody of note, Just a rank and file believer.

Could you post someone of the same intellect that teaches that Augustine was NOT a gnostic manechaen for 10 years?

I do not care about Augustine. he lived his life in his time. If God saves a person he makes them a new creation anyway, so if Augustine was an imperial wizard of gnostic cult teaching, it does not change my view of scripture at all.
So, show me where, Spurgeon, or John Murray, or John Owen, or Matthew Henry post gnostic thought!
I have Pastors who identify and denounce it up and down the line.

Certainly not.
Because he was.

hold on to that, and miss truth by a mile, not a solid strategy.

I can safely say that I know calvinism more than you do.

2....not even close my friend

You soften it over because the truth is difficult to take.
I don't need to sugar coat it because I know it's a gnostic belief system and have shown why.

I guess when your ideas cannot hold up on it, you are left with this: coffee

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello there.

I am not looking for a change of mind on your part, simply Scriptural justification for the Calvinist point of view....should you wish to provide it.

With respect, I am not yet convinced - not even anywhere near - that Calvinism is correct. You might well ask - of course - who is Niblo that one should even try to convince him?

Should this be the case....I can but thank you for your time.

Should you wish to continue, I would welcome any justification you may offer.

Blessings.

Okay listen, we can be friends who differ that is okay. You serve the Lord as best you can with what you know, as I will. we can learn from each other. I am here primarily to help edify those sincere persons who want to look to learn and grow. Others who want to go on an attack posture, I will break down such vain reasonings that exalts itself against truth.
I will welcome any continued interaction. I have started several threads with good links by more gifted persons.

 

[atpollard]

The 70 Jesus “chose” (since God does all the choosing to you) to follow him, left. He didn’t call them back.

Acts 2.

 

[atpollard]

Do you miss WHY He has done so and the fact that this is UNUSUAL? Do you assume he is restraining us from sinning? He’s doing a very poor job in that case.

You assume that we are all "Mother Tersa" and just need a little "dirt" washed off most of the time.
Scripture says that we are really all "Ted Bundy" with God restraining our evil inclinations.

... THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD means something!

 

[atpollard]

Toddlers don’t sin but are like those in Heaven. Matt 19:14

"No."
"Mine"
"You can't bite the other children."

... spoken like someone that either never had a toddler or is too old to remember.