Observing the Sabbath

[John 8:32]

I suspect you do not know what was changed. Have you read the chapter in context?

Your one liners aren't cutting it.

sorry

Every N.T. Christian worth their salt should have figured out early in their beliefs that the Word of Law, of God in Christ in the Old Testament became flesh and dwelt among us.

IN the light of this very secure fact it is entirely pointless to overlook that CHANGE...and the subsequent changes that came after that.

To look at The Word of God of the Old Testament as anything other than Jesus Christ is a complete waste of time and the presenters have nothing but false notions and imaginations of WHO THE WORD Is.

You can say 'the Sabbath' is THE WORD OF GOD.

And I'd say you can sit in the pew every Saturday from now until whenever and that supposed Word is still not Jesus Christ.

You getting the picture here yet? Or do you want to keep one lining me?

The above is only the first line of reasoned approach.

Secondly, do you become sinless in the pew on Saturday? You expect anyone to believe that? So what are you then when being 'so called' legally compliant? A legally obedient sinner? You expect anyone with half a wit is going to buy that kind of conflict in terms? A sinner is by definition ILLEGAL.

So, another avenue is 'temporarily sinless.' And of course that is going to rightfully be a hard sell as well.

Go ahead. One line me all you want. I'll keep putting up the observations of fact and some will engage and get the pictures sooner or later.

And some 'legalists' will maybe even stop lying to themselves?

s

As I suspected, anyhoo, here is what changed...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

What commandment would that be?

Num 18:1 And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
Num 18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.
Num 18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
Num 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
Num 18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.
Num 18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

And this was changed from a Levitical Priesthood to a Melchisidec Priesthood...

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

The Levitical Priesthood was genetic, one could NOT be priest without the DNA of the tribe of Levi and the DNA of Aaron. Hence this statement...

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Because God will not violate ANY Law that He either directly gave (the Ten Commandments) or inpired men to record (the Law of Moses) there had to be a change in the Law concerning the Priesthood. Hebrews 7 is not dealing with any portion of the Law except who can be a Priest and God changed that Law rather than do away with it or violate it.

 

[smaller]

I don't understand your post, friend.

As I understand it, the New Testament and the Old Testament are quite distinct.

Indeed. The Old Testament Word was creased into stone by The Finger of God, and the original was even broken before it ever returned to the people. Moses 're-created' a second copy later.

The Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us.

THEN the Word as FLESH was NAILED TO A CROSS. Where Paul refers to this in the New Testament there was no scroll of ordinances or a piece of stone also nailed to the cross with Jesus. There was THE WORD OF GOD, Jesus in the flesh therein nailed.

And finally the WORD OF GOD was raised to eternal life in an ETERNAL BODY of which we are now part by His Spirit dwelling within us, therein is Every Word of God already within us by our 'share' or 'token' of His Spirit.

Are the above matters of important considerations in how one might view the Old Testament?

I'd call it VITAL.

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

When you think you are not commiting adultery and have a single thought of
same, you may as well stop fooling yourself about your so called 'state of
sinless legally obedient perfection, temporary sinlessness or being a legally
obedient sinner.

And why would I disagree with this? I believe just as you do..

But what does that have to do with the fact that Christ does not want me to commit adultery in my mind or flesh?

I don't get the logic here. It's still the Law of God and I am still required to not transgress against it.

Feels like I'm going around in circles lol

 

[Joe Domingo]

John 8:32 comments on Hebrews - agreed.

 

[berk60]

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" Acts 20:7

 

[Joe Domingo]

This is futile.

Reba please Ban me so that I don't even have a chance to return. Sometimes Forums can be addicting. So please ban me thanks.

 

[John 8:32]

When you think you are not commiting adultery and have a single thought of
same, you may as well stop fooling yourself about your so called 'state of
sinless legally obedient perfection, temporary sinlessness or being a legally
obedient sinner.

And why would I disagree with this? I believe just as you do..

But what does that have to do with the fact that Christ does not want me to commit adultery in my mind or flesh?

I don't get the logic here. It's still the Law of God and I am still required to not transgress against it.

Feels like I'm going around in circles lol

Frustrating, ain't it?

 

[farouk]

As I understand it, the New Testament and the Old Testament are quite
distinct.

Question: Is Jeremiah 31:31-33 speaking of both Old and New Covenants? And if so, what are the differences?

Joe Domingo:

You see, as a dispensationalist, I don't see Israel and the church as the same. In fact I don't see the church in the Old Testament at all. Maybe this is one reason it seems to be as different as apples and oranges, really. I've been around many Reformed Christians; and I can certainly respect many of them as Godly individuals; when it comes to communicating meaningfully about certain doctrinal areas, however, it's not always easy, given the sometimes vastly different presuppositions which are brought to bear about matters such as law and grace, Israel and the church, Old and New Testaments, the Lord's coming to rapture His saints and His coming with His saints in power and glory.

 

[John 8:32]

This is futile.

Reba please Ban me so that I don't even have a chance to return. Sometimes Forums can be addicting. So please ban me thanks.

No, whatever you do, please do NOT ban Joe. He is the only one here that has a grasp on Law and Grace.

 

[farouk]

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" Acts 20:7

berk60:

Yes, it's evident that the disciples were no longer bound by the sabbath of the old economy.

 

[John 8:32]

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" Acts 20:7

berk60:

Yes, it's evident that the disciples were no longer bound by the sabbath of the old economy.

Please re-read post #5.

 

[smaller]

As I suspected, anyhoo, here is what changed...

Citing scriptures are one thing I will never dispute with as I fully accept Every Word of God as alive and active.

People's conclusions about same are quite another matter aren't they?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

What commandment would that be?

The Old Testament came through 'weak flesh' by the Spirit of Christ in the prophets. (I expect you know the scriptures for this?)

Num 18:1 And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
Num 18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.
Num 18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
Num 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
Num 18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.
Num 18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

And this was changed from a Levitical Priesthood to a Melchisidec Priesthood...

Obviously the Priesthood changed as did the Law.

Jesus Himself became the NEW COVENANT or TESTAMENT.

Read all about it:

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

It was always Jesus, the Word of God.

Weak men of the Old were not him, therefore God Himself showed up in FLESH.

The only mystery is why 'Old Testament legalists' can't read the facts of it.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

The Levitical Priesthood was genetic, one could NOT be priest without the DNA of the tribe of Levi and the DNA of Aaron. Hence this statement...

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Because God will not violate ANY Law

God Is The Law, The Living Word. Pretty much impossible for Him to violate what He Is.

The utter failure of perception is that we do not 'become The Word' by showing up in the pew on Saturday. Nor do any of us become sinless, temporarily sinless or legally obedient sinners. These latter points are brought into question to you guys.

that He either directly gave (the Ten Commandments) or inpired men to record (the Law of Moses) there had to be a change in the Law concerning the Priesthood. Hebrews 7 is not dealing with any portion of the Law except who can be a Priest and God changed that Law rather than do away with it or violate it.

No one is saying that the Word of the New Testament is against the Old Testament either.

Jesus Christ Is That Word. You can hold up the Saturday Sabbath writing all the day long and it will never turn into Jesus or turn you into Jesus.

s

 

[farouk]

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" Acts 20:7

berk60:

Yes, it's evident that the disciples were no longer bound by the sabbath of the old economy.

Please re-read post #5.

John 8.32:

I just did. So you are you saying that it wasn't the first day of the week as John 20.7 seems to say, after all? And are you saying as well that New Testament believers thus have to go back under the Old Testament sabbath again?

(Not my personal view, anyway.)

 

[John 8:32]

Farouk, can you show me where the Old Covenant began?

 

[WIP]

Ah come on 14 views no replies ...

It can't be that obvious, is it?

This is the subject that makes all Christians cringe - I wonder WHY?

I would like some clarity. When you say you, "observe the Sabbath," what does that mean? Please be specific so I can understand.

 

[smaller]

When you think you are not commiting adultery and have a single thought of
same, you may as well stop fooling yourself about your so called 'state of
sinless legally obedient perfection, temporary sinlessness or being a legally
obedient sinner.

And why would I disagree with this? I believe just as you do..

You understand the utter futility of trumpeting our supposed legal compliances as well then?

I am far more 'picky' about LAW than merely taking a casual glance at the outside of the cup.

But what does that have to do with the fact that Christ does not want me to commit adultery in my mind or flesh?

None of us become 'sinless' by choices or actions. That is a dead end street and we merely end up lying to ourselves about the 'fact' of having sin.

So I merely ask you what is wrong about being honest? I have little use to deceive myself or lie to myself about the fact of having sin. That entire avenue of approach to the subject matter might seem a little fruitless.

I don't get the logic here. It's still the Law of God and I am still required to not transgress against it.

The Law proves every person who has ever lived except God Himself in flesh to be factual sinners.

This conclusion of Old Testament Law changes for no one. Least of all 'very bad actors.'

Feels like I'm going around in circles lol

There is nothing wrong with taking the factual conclusions of law and coming to an honest conclusion that we have sin and are factual sinners.

No amount of ritual obedience or external showmanship is going to dodge the conclusion.

Why believers think otherwise is entirely another matter.

s

 

[John 8:32]

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread" Acts 20:7

berk60:

Yes, it's evident that the disciples were no longer bound by the sabbath of the old economy.

Please re-read post #5.

John 8.32:

I just did. So you are you saying that it wasn't the first day of the week as John 20.7 seems to say, after all?

No I am not saying that, the interlinear translation known as the Diaglott says that. Also, Dr. Bullinger says that...

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the Sabbaths, when we were gathered together to eat a common meal, Paul preached unto them, being about to depart on the morrow; and was extending the word until midnight.

And if you would examine Strong's you would find that the Greek says that...

Act 20:7 ... firstG3391 day of theG3588 week,G4521 ...

first:

G3391
μία
mia
mee'-ah
Irregular feminine of G1520; one or first: - a (certain), + agree, first, one, X other.

Yep, means first.

day of the:

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

The definite article.

week:

G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

Guess what Shabbath means here.

Hint: It does not mean Sunday. This passage is speaking of the first Sabbath of seven in the count toward Pentecost...

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Now, you can do as I did and research what it really means, or you may continue to believe what someone told you without looking into it. Entirely up to you.

And are you saying as well that New Testament believers thus have to go back under the Old Testament sabbath again?

(Not my personal view, anyway.)

When was the Sabbath created?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

He rested on the seventh day, but was it really the Sabbath?

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Says right there that the Eternal blessed and hallowed the seventh day Sabbath at creation week.

 

[smaller]

There is a very strange mindset that comes into play with Saturday Sabbatarians.

They believe that by establishing that Saturday is thee only legitimate Sabbath Day (which is ridiculous seeing it is factually a shadow of better things to come anyway) that they are somehow now also

legally obedient
temporarily sinless
or legally compliant sinners

There is no connecting the two matters. Even if one were to concede to them that their (extremely limited) views of the Sabbath are thee only legit view, it does not logically connect to them or their own condition.

Many of them seem to think that if they are right on the Sabbath, then they themselves are no longer sinners.

The logic just doesn't connect.

They think it does, but it doesn't.

s

 

[JLB]

Again, Jesus lived by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not just the 10 commandments.

Agreed. And that includes not excludes the Ten Commandments.
Jesus never broke the Ten Commandments - that is a curse! Jesus broke the traditions of men. Two different things.

The Ten Commandments were the only Words written by God's own finger. Every other word in the Bible was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Out of all the words in the Bible to play around with - those ten are dangerous to play with ...

Joe,

I agree that we should not "play around" with the 10 commandments.

I also say that you do not yet fully understand the Sabbath, or how to "keep" the Sabbath, or the intent of the Sabbath as God had intended it from the beginning.

I encourage you not to play around with the elementary understanding of the commandment "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, but rather rest on the Sabbath and draw near to Him and allow Him to refresh you and teach you a more complete perspective of this commandment.

As Sparrowhawk has encouraged us to do, Go on to perfection.

When we understand more perfectly, we will walk more perfectly.

JLB

 

[farouk]

Please re-read post #5.

John 8.32:

I just did. So you are you saying that it wasn't the first day of the week as John 20.7 seems to say, after all?

No I am not saying that, the interlinear translation known as the Diaglott says that. Also, Dr. Bullinger says that...

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the Sabbaths, when we were gathered together to eat a common meal, Paul preached unto them, being about to depart on the morrow; and was extending the word until midnight.

And if you would examine Strong's you would find that the Greek says that...

Act 20:7 ... firstG3391 day of theG3588 week,G4521 ...

first:

G3391
μία
mia
mee'-ah
Irregular feminine of G1520; one or first: - a (certain), + agree, first, one, X other.

Yep, means first.

day of the:

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

The definite article.

week:

G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

Guess what Shabbath means here.

Hint: It does not mean Sunday. This passage is speaking of the first Sabbath of seven in the count toward Pentecost...

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Now, you can do as I did and research what it really means, or you may continue to believe what someone told you without looking into it. Entirely up to you.

And are you saying as well that New Testament believers thus have to go back under the Old Testament sabbath again?

(Not my personal view, anyway.)

When was the Sabbath created?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

He rested on the seventh day, but was it really the Sabbath?

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Says right there that the Eternal blessed and hallowed the seventh day Sabbath at creation week.

John 8.32:

Oh, I see where you might be coming from, anyway.

Are you Seventh Day Adventist, by any chance? (honest question)

The day of the resurrection corresponds with the feast of firstfruits in the Old Testament, but now the New Testament believer has the essence and fulfilment of what the types and shadows look forward to. So to my understanding, going back under the law to the Jewish sabbath is not an option, anyway.