This is to both Deavonreye and Alabaster-----------
Your getting close here. Your opponent, Devonreye cannot understand the nature of man, and therefore can never agree with you. His presupposition, or his starting point is the innocence of man. If you think in terms of his presupposition, that man is innocent, then Deavonreye is right, why should man (being innocent) be judged? What did man do wrong? Look at all those innocent little babies that died because God judged a culture. Did they do anything wrong? If man is innocent, then certainly God is the unjust cruel judge.
The answer is that yes, the babies are evil, and should be judged by God. The entire human race is evil, and if God destroyed the entire Human Race, he would still be just.
Alabaster, what I am saying is a problem for your theology.... right? You would be the more middle position that man is morally neutral until man chooses. You do not see man as a sinner, who is sinful from the moment of his conception. You see man as more neutral, maybe leaning a little to the evil side. You would see sin nature as a sickness that means "no body is perfect." You would admit faults in man, but not go to the extent that I would and say that man is only evil.
Genesis 6:5 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Of course I think you are close, in that you know man has sinned sins, but you do not see man as a rebel from the moment of conception and being conceived in sin. I think this weakens your argument against Deavonreye. With your presuppositions (Alabaster), maybe there should be some times God should not have judged people. Do not you picture God as one who sits and waits and hopes that maybe someone will repent?
It does not in the least amaze me that God had little babies killed. It is far more remarkable that God did not kill every man, woman, child, infant in the whole human race. It is far more remarkable that anyone is left alive. I say this because I believe we are born in iniquity. The moment we were conceived, we were evil. As David says below in Psalm 51, we were concieved in sin. In this he is not speaking of the sin of his mother, or of his Father Jesse. He is speaking of his own nature. Most scholars think David penned Pslam 51 right after his sin with Bathsheba, and his murder of her husband. I think David saw how wicked he really was. David says is PSalm 51...
3 For I know my transgressions; And my sin is ever before me.
David reflects upon his sin and is able to see his own nature. Of his own nature, he says...
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
So then, Deavonreye sees man as very innocent, and that maybe God could judge a few men like Hitler, but Deavonreye would proclaim that he himself is good enough to not be judged. Alabaster sees himself as having faults and that he has made mistakes and he knows that he should be judged. Alabaster sees everyone as having some guilt (although, infants are an issue in his theology). Me, Mondar the Calvinist! I of course see man as an evil being, totally incapable of pleasing God in any way. If God destroys the entire race... if he kills ever man, woman, child, infant.... we are only getting what we deserve. The fact that any left alive is grace (common grace). I see the human race as born dead. The race became still born at Adams fall. We are all dead from the moment of our conception. God does not leave us all dead (but that would be justice) but he makes some of us alive. Oh the matchless grace of God! We were dead, and he made us alive!
Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Only in the Calvinistic theology of total depravity can there be a holy God who is not guilty for judging infants. We are all evil, we are all guilty, we were all in Adam.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation...........
Judgment comes to all men according to the scripture, and justly so. All men are in Adam. Righteousness comes to all men in Christ.
Alabaster, Christ is the only way to be accepted before God, and not be judged. In that we agree. But I see God as saving us from much more then you do. You see man as running the race and falling short. We did not fall short, but we were running back the track the wrong way because we hated God. God changed our nature so that we could believe, and God saved us.
Deavonreye, the worse part of your atheism is your self-righteousness. For that and that alone you will stand guilty before God.
To any other reader, if you begin with the fact that all men are in Adams rebellion, and we are sinners who rebel against God from the moment of our conception, then if God extinguishes the entire human race, he is not guilty. If he commits genocide, then he has done justice, but shown grace to those left of the human race he did not kill. We are an evil race. If God does not kill us, we will kill ourselves.
Your getting close here. Your opponent, Devonreye cannot understand the nature of man, and therefore can never agree with you. His presupposition, or his starting point is the innocence of man. If you think in terms of his presupposition, that man is innocent, then Deavonreye is right, why should man (being innocent) be judged? What did man do wrong? Look at all those innocent little babies that died because God judged a culture. Did they do anything wrong? If man is innocent, then certainly God is the unjust cruel judge.
The answer is that yes, the babies are evil, and should be judged by God. The entire human race is evil, and if God destroyed the entire Human Race, he would still be just.
Alabaster, what I am saying is a problem for your theology.... right? You would be the more middle position that man is morally neutral until man chooses. You do not see man as a sinner, who is sinful from the moment of his conception. You see man as more neutral, maybe leaning a little to the evil side. You would see sin nature as a sickness that means "no body is perfect." You would admit faults in man, but not go to the extent that I would and say that man is only evil.
Genesis 6:5 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Of course I think you are close, in that you know man has sinned sins, but you do not see man as a rebel from the moment of conception and being conceived in sin. I think this weakens your argument against Deavonreye. With your presuppositions (Alabaster), maybe there should be some times God should not have judged people. Do not you picture God as one who sits and waits and hopes that maybe someone will repent?
It does not in the least amaze me that God had little babies killed. It is far more remarkable that God did not kill every man, woman, child, infant in the whole human race. It is far more remarkable that anyone is left alive. I say this because I believe we are born in iniquity. The moment we were conceived, we were evil. As David says below in Psalm 51, we were concieved in sin. In this he is not speaking of the sin of his mother, or of his Father Jesse. He is speaking of his own nature. Most scholars think David penned Pslam 51 right after his sin with Bathsheba, and his murder of her husband. I think David saw how wicked he really was. David says is PSalm 51...
3 For I know my transgressions; And my sin is ever before me.
David reflects upon his sin and is able to see his own nature. Of his own nature, he says...
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
So then, Deavonreye sees man as very innocent, and that maybe God could judge a few men like Hitler, but Deavonreye would proclaim that he himself is good enough to not be judged. Alabaster sees himself as having faults and that he has made mistakes and he knows that he should be judged. Alabaster sees everyone as having some guilt (although, infants are an issue in his theology). Me, Mondar the Calvinist! I of course see man as an evil being, totally incapable of pleasing God in any way. If God destroys the entire race... if he kills ever man, woman, child, infant.... we are only getting what we deserve. The fact that any left alive is grace (common grace). I see the human race as born dead. The race became still born at Adams fall. We are all dead from the moment of our conception. God does not leave us all dead (but that would be justice) but he makes some of us alive. Oh the matchless grace of God! We were dead, and he made us alive!
Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Only in the Calvinistic theology of total depravity can there be a holy God who is not guilty for judging infants. We are all evil, we are all guilty, we were all in Adam.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation...........
Judgment comes to all men according to the scripture, and justly so. All men are in Adam. Righteousness comes to all men in Christ.
Alabaster, Christ is the only way to be accepted before God, and not be judged. In that we agree. But I see God as saving us from much more then you do. You see man as running the race and falling short. We did not fall short, but we were running back the track the wrong way because we hated God. God changed our nature so that we could believe, and God saved us.
Deavonreye, the worse part of your atheism is your self-righteousness. For that and that alone you will stand guilty before God.
To any other reader, if you begin with the fact that all men are in Adams rebellion, and we are sinners who rebel against God from the moment of our conception, then if God extinguishes the entire human race, he is not guilty. If he commits genocide, then he has done justice, but shown grace to those left of the human race he did not kill. We are an evil race. If God does not kill us, we will kill ourselves.
