Old Testament Genocide

[Deavonreye]

Yes, power will corrupt many people. That is why many don't have it. We can see from history how power corrupts. Mostly these people are sinners from the beginning and don't need much to tip the scales of corruption anyway.

Doesn't the bible state that even those corrupt leaders were still placed there by god?

 

[Alabaster]

But the fault is not in power but in our natural nature. And we all have power whether we know it or not.....as long as you are a human being you have power. God made man (man = human being) to have power and authority…….He said, let them have dominion over the Earth.

But one of the problems are is that human beings seek to have dominion over other human beings, which God never said we should do....that came about because Adam and Eve sinned. The Bible clearly tells us that we who overcome will rule over all things. So the thing is in order for man to use power for good, we need the divine Nature of God.....human nature must and will be removed and replaced with the divine Nature of God.

You are absolutely right. The weakness in us mixed with great power is volatile.

 

[Alabaster]

Doesn't the bible state that even those corrupt leaders were still placed there by god?

Yes...did God corrupt them?

 

[Alabaster]

There are several scriptures that directly state we cannot come up with faith on our own. John 6 repeats the concept twice.

(ASV)
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

In both of the above passages, the word "can" is dunamai in greek. The term refers to "ability." No man has the ability to come to Christ.

Even if we had the natural ability to believe, we would not have the ability to receive the things of the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

When I made reference to Psalm 51, and all mankind being conceived in iniquity, that was a reference to original sin (Adams sin). Because we are all "in Adam" at conception and birth, we have no capacity for obedience or faith. We have the "free will" to choose any path of rebellion that we prefer, but we have no capacity for obedience and faith. The entire Human race lost the capacity to believe at the fall of Adam. We regain the capacity to believe after regeneration and the drawing of God.

We are not sovereign over the ministries of God I am calling "regeneration" and "drawing." God, in eternity past (Eph 1:4), chose those whom he would regenerate and draw. Without these ministries of the Holy Spirit and God that come upon those he has chosen, we would all be rebels. There is none of us that seek after God.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; We were all rebelling and fleeing from God. The new birth does not come by an act of our will.... but the will of God.
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That's what I say, too.

Alabaster, while we agree on much, we both trust in Christs substitutionary atonement for our justificaton before God.... But if I remember right, you claim that man should get the credit for his own faith.

What planet are you on? where have I ever said such a thing? You need to come up with the quotes you keep insisting I make. Or stop presuming you know what I believe, because you surely don't.

That is not a small difference. It will affect the way we do evangelism, and the way we do apologetics. However, I have noticed also that you are willing to side with me that man was conceived in sin. We are rebels from the time of our conception in our mothers womb. The difference is that when I say that, I am saying that man is so evil, that without the work of God, man does not have the capacity to believe. So then, I see man as more sinful and evil then you do.

Have fun in your sandbox.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhLCus0tsmw

 

[Deavonreye]

Yes...did God corrupt them?

They were either already corrupt, or were known by god to be corrept in their leadership. This actually goes to each person who leads a nation of people, . . . including those nations who have differing religions. So, perhaps it is true that the world is but a "chess board" with god on one side. . . . and Satan on the other.

 

[Alabaster]

They were either already corrupt, or were known by god to be corrept in their leadership. This actually goes to each person who leads a nation of people, . . . including those nations who have differing religions. So, perhaps it is true that the world is but a "chess board" with god on one side. . . . and Satan on the other.

Hardly. Satan is not an equal enemy to God. He is far below God in strength and power, as he is a mere created being.

 

[Deavonreye]

To be honest, there really hasn't been a true display of power from either of them. I know this is "heresy", but I call em as I see em.

 

[Bazz1040]

You are absolutely right. The weakness in us mixed with great power is volatile.

Correct...

 

[Alabaster]

To be honest, there really hasn't been a true display of power from either of them. I know this is "heresy", but I call em as I see em.

You have been lied to. One day you will run into a brick wall. Then you will see what Jehovah will do for you, if and when you call on Jesus' name. some people need desperation before they will turn to Jesus Christ.

Psalm 34:6
In my desperation I prayed, and the Lord listened;
he saved me from all my troubles.

 

[Deavonreye]

You have been lied to. One day you will run into a brick wall. Then you will see what Jehovah will do for you, if and when you call on Jesus' name. some people need desperation before they will turn to Jesus Christ.

Psalm 34:6
In my desperation I prayed, and the Lord listened;
he saved me from all my troubles.

Hmmmmm,. . . yyyyeah. I tried the "desperate prayer". Still nothing.

 

[Alabaster]

Hmmmmm,. . . yyyyeah. I tried the "desperate prayer". Still nothing.

You aren't desperate enough for God. Ask Him to take you there. After all, your eternity is at stake...not to mention your physical life here.

 

[Deavonreye]

You aren't desperate enough for God. Ask Him to take you there. After all, your eternity is at stake...not to mention your physical life here.

Not now, no. No longer desperate. But please do not conclude that THAT was never the case in my past. You don't know the hell I went threw and how I was as genuine and sincere as I could ever be, then, . . . but never found anything outside myself. It was a HUGE wake up call to me that, in a time in my life when god should have showed up, he didn't. . . . just like all the other times in my life before and after.

 

[mondar]

Not now, no. No longer desperate. But please do not conclude that THAT was never the case in my past. You don't know the hell I went threw and how I was as genuine and sincere as I could ever be, then, . . . but never found anything outside myself. It was a HUGE wake up call to me that, in a time in my life when god should have showed up, he didn't. . . . just like all the other times in my life before and after.

Deavonreye, I cannot know what is behind your statements above, you make it sound like a personal disaster. You use terms like "desperate," but also "genuine and sincere." You make it sound like some personal disaster is behind your defection from Christianity.

If I am grasping what you are saying, your Christianity was flawed from the beginning and was a recipe for a theological disaster. To my ears, it sounds like you create an idea of what God should be doing for you. Then you do your part, but when God does not do for you what you thought he should, you feel he did not keep his part of the bargain. You then conclude that there is something wrong with God.

Deavonreye, maybe you considered yourself once to be a Christian and that you did believe in God. Hopefully you see that I would have rejected the God you claim you were sincere to. We never did did believe in the same God. By what you wrote above, it seems to me that you never had a sovereign God. You were always in the drivers seat in some way. In some way, you made the rules, and then rejected your former concept of God because that God did not play by your rules.

You talk about being "sincere," but you were "sincere" to some very bad concepts of the nature of man, and the nature of God. While you might have called that "Christianity." Its not the Christianity I know, and your God never was the God of the Bible.

It is interesting that we both agree that the God you once had, is not a worthy God. We arrive at that conclusions by different reasoning. You deny him because he did not keep his end of a bargain. I deny your former God because he lacks because I dont think he ever did have any sovereignty.

The bottom line is this... what you rejected in you past, is not what I have in the present.

 

[Deavonreye]

Well, mondar, . . . I'm not sure what to say to that. I was just following the teachings of my church [Assemblies of God]. Maybe there wasn't any "sovereignty", but I cannot be bendable to a "faith sovereignty". Especially when I see what is supposed to pass for "judgement" and "actual history" in the bible. As I have said before, most of what I read in the Old Testament seems very much like either man based ideologies, or obvious non-literal stories. Perhaps I don't know how to be as you, or Alabaster, or others, . . . maybe I never really did, but I tried the best I knew how.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe I was seeing that you were one who believes that god created some for destruction. I must be one of them. It would be a surprise, to be honest.

 

[Alabaster]

Not now, no. No longer desperate. But please do not conclude that THAT was never the case in my past. You don't know the hell I went threw and how I was as genuine and sincere as I could ever be, then, . . . but never found anything outside myself. It was a HUGE wake up call to me that, in a time in my life when god should have showed up, he didn't. . . . just like all the other times in my life before and after.

Who are you to say what God should and shouldn't do?

When you are truly desperate, and I hope it doesn't come to that, but in some people it does, you will call upon Him and mean it. He will be there.

 

[Deavonreye]

Who are you to say what God should and shouldn't do?

When you are truly desperate, and I hope it doesn't come to that, but in some people it does, you will call upon Him and mean it. He will be there.

You know what, . . . .god can do whatever he wants. But if/when he does, I will stand knowing that I was at least honest and up front about who I am.

 

[Alabaster]

You know what, . . . .god can do whatever he wants. But if/when he does, I will stand knowing that I was at least honest and up front about who I am.

If you reject God, then you won't even be able to stand, period---let alone be self-satisfied in one's so-called integrity.

 

[mondar]

Well, mondar, . . . I'm not sure what to say to that. I was just following the teachings of my church [Assemblies of God]. Maybe there wasn't any "sovereignty", but I cannot be bendable to a "faith sovereignty". Especially when I see what is supposed to pass for "judgement" and "actual history" in the bible. As I have said before, most of what I read in the Old Testament seems very much like either man based ideologies, or obvious non-literal stories. Perhaps I don't know how to be as you, or Alabaster, or others, . . . maybe I never really did, but I tried the best I knew how.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe I was seeing that you were one who believes that god created some for destruction. I must be one of them. It would be a surprise, to be honest.

I am not sure what you mean by the term "Faith sovereignty." Also, yes, I am one who believes that some men were made for destruction. Concerning you being one of the pots fit for destruction, no man can know the intent of God. Paul was the chiefest of sinners. The day may come when you recognize that you are in fact evil and repent and turn to Christs substitution as the only payment for your sin. Then you will be a pot fit for glory.

I am sure you tried the "best I know how." I certainly do not doubt your sincerity, or your efforts. What I am questioning was the starting point for your original Christianity that you defected from. There are certain basic doctrines in Christianity. The Assemblies of God are not known for stressing the fundamental starting doctrines of Christianity. I am talking about Original Sin. I have seen no evidence that you ever believed concepts of Original Sin when you were in the Assemblies of God. My guess is that you never even heard of the term while in the AoG. Am I right?

I suspect you never did have a view of man that we are all guilty, even before our birth, we were conceived in sin and iniquity. You have presented yourself as someone that never believed that man was evil from the fall onward. You speak of innocent babies that do not deserve to be judged in the OT genocide narratives as though they have no original sin. You refer to them as though they are not guilty being in Adam. You even spoke of yourself as not really bad enough to be judged by God. It seems to me that you were never taught Original Sin by the AoG, and this lead to your view that God was not doing his job.

That brings up the other part... You seem to have a view of God that he is some sort of benevolent benefactor. He is there to make us happy and successful. So when things did not work out for you, then it was a logical conclusion that there was something wrong with God. God is not God unless he does his job. You did your part, he did not do his part in your theology, therefore God does not exist.

I find your reasoning logical. Certainly if God judges the innocent, certainly if you experienced unbearable pain in your (so called) Christian life, and God is a benevolent benefactor, then something is terribly wrong. I totally agree. Where I disagree is on your original premises. Those original premises came from a flawed Christianity.

The bottom line, is that while you may have been sincerely pious, and sincerely followed what you thought were the teachings of the AoG, your theology was flawed from the start. You had a wrong view of who man. You also had a wrong view of God. With these bad theological views in your AoG experience, it led you to the logical deduction that God does not exist. I agree your logic is correct, but your starting premises are flawed.

If man is conceived in Original Sin as I am suggesting... then we should be able to experience death anytime from conception onward. We are rebels worthy only of death. Babies die. Unborn babies die. Death is universal because we are rebels, born with a nature of evil from the start. This does not mean we are all as sinful as we could be. Some are less sinful, others are more sinful. Very few of us drop to the degradation that murders and rapists do. But we all can harden our hearts to the pain and suffering of others. We can all walk by the beggar on the street and do nothing. It is not only the individual sins of which we are guilty, it is the fact that we are sinners.

It is then logical if we are all sinners and rebels from conception onward, that we can all be punished with death. We all deserve Gods judgment. It is also logical that if God created all things for his glory, and not to make us happy, then God is glorified in punishing rebellion and sin. He is also glorified in revealing his love. His love is revealed because we deserve to die, and Christ died in our place. Of course a starting point for my theology is that God did not create to please us, but to glorify himself. So then, how could God glorify himself best...
if he created and all men are rebels and he judges all men in a universal judgment without any reconciliation or salvation, how is his love revealed? If God creates all men and then saves all men, and reveals his love, and no one is judged, how is his justice and righteous judgment revealed? For God to glorify himself by revealing all his attributes, there must be both love and also wrath. There must be salvation, and judgment. Only in this way can all of God's attributes be revealed.

You recoil from a God that reveals both love, and wrath. I recoil from a God that is only love. The God you had when you were in the AoG seems a God that lack justice. Such a God is not righteous, he winks at rebellion and sin. He looks the other way when evil occurs. I don't see the powerful, sovereignty of such a God that you once had. I certainly agree that the God you had when you were in the AoG, never existed. But this does not mean that the real God does not exist.

 

[Deavonreye]

mondar, you really need to limit your posts. It makes it very difficult to discuss things. . . . . I will have to pick and choose now....

I am not sure what you mean by the term "Faith sovereignty."

"God's sovereignty" is all based upon "faith". It is hard to do such a thing when only a book and its believers give that testimony. I see no actual evidence of it.


The Assemblies of God are not known for stressing the fundamental starting doctrines of Christianity. . . . original sin. . . we are all guilty . . . evil from the fall . . . even before our birth, we were conceived in sin and iniquity . . . guilty being in Adam, etc.

The AoG stressed all those fundamental levels. I disagree with them for the same reason that I disagree with the testimony of Muhammad.

That brings up the other part... You seem to have a view of God that he is some sort of benevolent benefactor. He is there to make us happy and successful. So when things did not work out for you, then it was a logical conclusion that there was something wrong with God. God is not God unless he does his job. You did your part, he did not do his part in your theology, therefore God does not exist.

I never made any claims of the sort. A level of justice is necessary, but it should never equal "love" or "benevolence". Those two should vastly trump "malevolence". The OT stories show "malevolence" far more. As for my part, I never felt his presence . . .even in the GOOD times.

For God to glorify himself by revealing all his attributes, there must be both love and also wrath. There must be salvation, and judgment. Only in this way can all of God's attributes be revealed.

Then it is my opinion [opinion only, not judgement] that god has a poor level of communication. "Glorified in the eternal pain and suffering of others", apparently on purpose, to fulfill a plan? This is what I'm seeing as "your true christianity" and I could never abide being in heaven knowing this.

You recoil from a God that reveals both love, and wrath. I recoil from a God that is only love. The God you had when you were in the AoG seems a God that lack justice. Such a God is not righteous, he winks at rebellion and sin. He looks the other way when evil occurs. I don't see the powerful, sovereignty of such a God that you once had. I certainly agree that the God you had when you were in the AoG, never existed. But this does not mean that the real God does not exist.

The AoG most definitely doesn't have a god that "winks at sin". Go to their webpage and view their 16 fundamental statements of faith.

What I recoil from is those who see such things and say "praise god". Yes, humanity is evil at times. . . . some are evil most of the time, to be honest. I know that I have issues as well and am not completely good. But this isn't an issue with "me being good or not". What I find amazing is that I am considered "evil" if I find a problem with god destroying millions of people in order to fulfill a plan that ultimately would only "save" a fraction in the long run.

 

[mondar]

What I recoil from is those who see such things and say "praise god". Yes, humanity is evil at times. . . . some are evil most of the time, to be honest. I know that I have issues as well and am not completely good. But this isn't an issue with "me being good or not". What I find amazing is that I am considered "evil" if I find a problem with god destroying millions of people in order to fulfill a plan that ultimately would only "save" a fraction in the long run.

If a person sins.... he is a sinner.... right? Are you not asking for God not to judge sin? Or are you asking God to save more people?